Arvia dining, does it have enough places

[9265359]

18 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

The MDRs on both Celebrity and P&O are open for passengers to enter until 9:30, so there must be some passengers who dine later your estimate, otherwise the dining times would have adjusted long ago.

 

And have you ever gone into the MDR after 9pm - I have, but there is virtually nobody else doing so.

 

There certainly isn't 1/3 of the ship doing so, which is what you would need to happen for the majority of tables to be turned three times.

 

One of the reasons why they don't need to adjust the 9.30pm closing time is that even if you go in after 9pm service is very rapid and you certainly won't be taking 90 minutes for your meal - go in at 9:15 and you will most likely be out by 10pm, leaving behind many sharing tables who went in far earlier but are sat there chatting over coffee.  

[terrierjohn]

17 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

And have you ever gone into the MDR after 9pm - I have, but there is virtually nobody else doing so.

 

There certainly isn't 1/3 of the ship doing so, which is what you would need to happen for the majority of tables to be turned three times.

 

One of the reasons why they don't need to adjust the 9.30pm closing time is that even if you go in after 9pm service is very rapid and you certainly won't be taking 90 minutes for your meal - go in at 9:15 and you will most likely be out by 10pm, leaving behind many sharing tables who went in far earlier but are sat there chatting over coffee.  

We will have to agree to disagree.

[9265359]

33 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

Does that mean you do go into the MDR after 9PM and have seen vast numbers doing the same?

 

If not, then how do you honestly think you can turn the tables three times an evening with 90 minutes for each sitting?

 

As I said at the start, I am sure you can turn *some* tables three times, but *most* tables - not a chance.

[solentsam]

I thought a lot of people dined around 8.30 so how is it empty at 9:00 ish or are you saying there is no queues after 9:00 ?

[Eglesbrech]

4 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

I still consider that freedom dining should enable the cruise line to provide more covers than 2 sitting fixed dining, but of course they do need to have adequate staffing, and they do need to be well managed.

I remember now that the discussion I had with a food and beverage manager was actually on Celebrity Eclipse at the CC welcome party, and I admit that the way they manage restaurant staff is possibly why he felt they were able to achieve almost 3 times the covers in their freedom dining. From the assistant Maitre D, through the head waiters, and down to the waiters and assistants, they all got stuck into clearing finished tables and turning them round in no time at all, and with an expected 90 minutes max dining time 3 times covers is achievable.

They certainly turn some of the tables 3 times on Celebrity so it is possible with adequate staffing. I’ve seen it done on numerous cruises with Celebrity and RCI.

 

I think there is also a bit of a cultural element to this situation as well with mainly British v mixed U.K. and USA passengers and probably age demographics as well.
 

I like to sit and enjoy dinner, I don’t like being rushed and good conversation is part of the enjoyment of the meal. Some of those across the pond are just the same but I have seen tables in and out in 30 minutes and that’s all courses! I have never seen food hoovered up so quickly in my life, they really enjoy their food but quickly then head to the martini bar or casino. The tables were cleaned, reset and next passengers seated in minutes after departure.

 

Most (probably older) Brits tend to sit and talk as well as eat. We don’t like being rushed hence the pushback against being made to order pudding at the start of the meal mentioned on here by many folks.

[Eglesbrech]

2 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

Does that mean you do go into the MDR after 9PM and have seen vast numbers doing the same?

 

If not, then how do you honestly think you can turn the tables three times an evening with 90 minutes for each sitting?

 

As I said at the start, I am sure you can turn *some* tables three times, but *most* tables - not a chance.

Have you considered that not everyone takes 90 minutes to eat a meal?. Some are in and out much more quickly.

 

 

[Megabear2]

4 minutes ago, Eglesbrech said:

Have you considered that not everyone takes 90 minutes to eat a meal?. Some are in and out much more quickly.

 

 

In theory yes but the speed of service on Arvia will have an impact. If I sat down on a shared table for 6.00pm I found I was leaving at around 8.05pm and I did not have coffee.  Service was very slow in both MDR, I was booked for 8.30pm shows most nights and on one occasion having a 6.15pm sit down had to leave with 5 minutes to spare for my theatre booking.  The staff were dealing with very large numbers and as I have said previously many tables were not being cleared when they emptied.

[Eglesbrech]

1 minute ago, Megabear2 said:

In theory yes but the speed of service on Arvia will have an impact. If I sat down on a shared table for 6.00pm I found I was leaving at around 8.05pm and I did not have coffee.  Service was very slow in both MDR, I was booked for 8.30pm shows most nights and on one occasion having a 6.15pm sit down had to leave with 5 minutes to spare for my theatre booking.  The staff were dealing with very large numbers and as I have said previously many tables were not being cleared when they emptied.

Yes the speed (or lack of it) of service will have impact on how long it takes but at least that is something that could in theory be addressed. 

[9265359]

48 minutes ago, Eglesbrech said:

Have you considered that not everyone takes 90 minutes to eat a meal?. Some are in and out much more quickly.

 

Absolutely - that's why in the earlier post I completely agreed that some tables could be turned three times but I disagreed with the assertion that most were being turned three times.

 

If you have a table where the occupants sat down at 6pm and were there for an hour, turned it again to a new group at 7pm and they were there for an hour, then you could turn it again at 8pm.

 

But really, how many people only spend an hour in the MDR in an evening? It certainly isn't most, and once people are spending longer than an hour then turning the table three times is impossible unless you have a combination of lots of passengers wanting to eat very early and lots wanting to eat very late - a pretty unlikely scenario.

 

1 hour ago, solentsam said:

I thought a lot of people dined around 8.30 so how is it empty at 9:00 ish or are you saying there is no queues after 9:00 ?

 

No queues, particularly as you approach closing time at 9.30pm as they can't tell you to take a pager and they can't tell you to go away and not feed you.

 

Again as I mentioned in an earlier post, even at 9.30pm there will still be people in the MDR, a few just finishing their main course if they are on a sharing table and someone had soup and a starter, most on desert, and a few on coffee.

 

But what you are certainly not getting are the queues of people looking to be seated after 9pm that you get at 8pm.

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by 9265359

[Spike11]

1 hour ago, 9265359 said:

 

Absolutely - that's why in the earlier post I completely agreed that some tables could be turned three times but I disagreed with the assertion that most were being turned three times.

 

If you have a table where the occupants sat down at 6pm and were there for an hour, turned it again to a new group at 7pm and they were there for an hour, then you could turn it again at 8pm.

 

But really, how many people only spend an hour in the MDR in an evening? It certainly isn't most, and once people are spending longer than an hour then turning the table three times is impossible unless you have a combination of lots of passengers wanting to eat very early and lots wanting to eat very late - a pretty unlikely scenario.

 

 

No queues, particularly as you approach closing time at 9.30pm as they can't tell you to take a pager and they can't tell you to go away and not feed you.

 

Again as I mentioned in an earlier post, even at 9.30pm there will still be people in the MDR, a few just finishing their main course if they are on a sharing table and someone had soup and a starter, most on desert, and a few on coffee.

 

But what you are certainly not getting are the queues of people looking to be seated after 9pm that you get at 8pm.

 

I’m afraid that I am still not convinced of your arguments that more people are served dinner in the fixed restaurants, compared to the freedom restaurants. I remember being in a packed freedom dining restaurant on Arcadia (where pagers were being given out) and the fixed dining restaurant was half empty (this was first sitting) - presumably because those allocated fixed dining were eating elsewhere. The problem with the fixed dining restaurants is that if those allocated to it don’t turn up, the tables stay empty. This can’t happen in the freedom dining restaurants.

[Windsurfboy]

I love the speculation on CC and how there's always a difference of opinion. 

 

It looks like there are some things that P&O can do to make things better, but at the margins if there is fundamentally a shortage of tables when full.

 

Please anybody got any numbers @molecrochip can you dig some out.

 

Anyway here are some contentious ideas.

 

To increase capacity encourage sharing. Have more big tables and if you want to share you go straight to front of queue. Publicise way to get table straight away is to share

 

Introduce a maximum table time of 1 and half hours. Stop serving tea coffee in included dining rooms

 

Pre covid and pre big ships, select got preference as to dining slot. In all freedom dining like Arvia perhaps select get to front of virtual queue ,  or the app opens hour earlier for select.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Windsurfboy

[9265359]

1 hour ago, Spike11 said:

I’m afraid that I am still not convinced of your arguments that more people are served dinner in the fixed restaurants, compared to the freedom restaurants. I remember being in a packed freedom dining restaurant on Arcadia (where pagers were being given out) and the fixed dining restaurant was half empty (this was first sitting) - presumably because those allocated fixed dining were eating elsewhere. The problem with the fixed dining restaurants is that if those allocated to it don’t turn up, the tables stay empty. This can’t happen in the freedom dining restaurants.

 

It was capacity I was referring to.

 

A 500 seat fixed MDR with two sittings can with certainty seat 1,000 people if they choose to turn up.

 

A 500 seat freedom MDR has a capacity to seat fewer than 1,000 because only a small portion of that 1,000 will turn up at 6.30pm or earlier, certainly not the 500 allocated to the same size fixed dining MDR.

 

The bulk of the freedom dining people will try to turn up at 7.30pm because that is when they want to eat, but a significant portion will get fed up of the queues and go elsewhere because they don't want to eat at 9pm after those lucky enough to get a 7.30pm table have finished and the table become free again, and then only a few people will actually go in after 9pm as the MDR is emptying.

 

And that reluctance to dine at 6.30pm is evidenced by your example, since I assume you are not comparing how busy fixed and freedom were at 6.30pm itself, but later in the first fixed seating service period that runs from 6.30pm to 8.30pm, and thus covers that 7.30pm time when most people actually want to eat.

[Ardennais]

4 hours ago, Eglesbrech said:

Yes the speed (or lack of it) of service will have impact on how long it takes but at least that is something that could in theory be addressed. 

Yes, in theory, but in practice? I had a moan about service levels on Iona during February half term and quite a few responses here were along the lines of, well avoid the school holidays. That doesn’t address the fundamental problem. Someone also said that Iona was fully staffed and that the crew quarters were full. So I doubt whether they can find additional staff. Of course, it’s possible to deploy the staff they have in different ways, but we’ve also been told that the cabin staff now do other things in the evenings rather than turndown. I can’t see how they can really speed things up! 

[Presto2]

8 minutes ago, Ardennais said:

Yes, in theory, but in practice? I had a moan about service levels on Iona during February half term and quite a few responses here were along the lines of, well avoid the school holidays. That doesn’t address the fundamental problem. Someone also said that Iona was fully staffed and that the crew quarters were full. So I doubt whether they can find additional staff. Of course, it’s possible to deploy the staff they have in different ways, but we’ve also been told that the cabin staff now do other things in the evenings rather than turndown. I can’t see how they can really speed things up! 

And if you can't avoid the school holidays what do you do?

I asked a head waiter in May half term on Britannia as it was manic and the service rubbish and his words were " Next week it will have to be better when the real cruisers come". (He was referring to the fact that 2 thirds of the ship had never sailed with PO before). Can't say we were impressed ..

Will leave you with that one ............ 

[Ardennais]

1 minute ago, Presto2 said:

And if you can't avoid the school holidays what do you do?

I asked a head waiter in May half term on Britannia as it was manic and the service rubbish and his words were " Next week it will have to be better when the real cruisers come". (He was referring to the fact that 2 thirds of the ship had never sailed with PO before). Can't say we were impressed ..

Will leave you with that one ............ 

I know, it’s not good enough. We were also confined to school holidays for years as I was teaching and then when I only taught part time, I would never take the children out of school in term time. 

I still don’t mind sailing during the school holidays. I like seeing children around but I expect the standard to be more or less the same. 

[Eglesbrech]

23 minutes ago, Ardennais said:

Yes, in theory, but in practice? I had a moan about service levels on Iona during February half term and quite a few responses here were along the lines of, well avoid the school holidays. That doesn’t address the fundamental problem. Someone also said that Iona was fully staffed and that the crew quarters were full. So I doubt whether they can find additional staff. Of course, it’s possible to deploy the staff they have in different ways, but we’ve also been told that the cabin staff now do other things in the evenings rather than turndown. I can’t see how they can really speed things up! 

Good management will find a way if they are motivated to do so. 

 

A bit of lateral thinking. If you don’t have enough crew quarters designate some more. Some of the passenger cabins are really not popular so move senior staff there are reassign their cabins.

 

Some one in P&O has a bit of imagination, they sell the “Chefs Table” as an alternative for formal nights, effectively just the buffet with table cloths. If they want to improve things there is always a way but you need to care enough to find it.

 

If I was consulting on this I would start with looking at the passenger journey when it comes to dining and ask the staff on the ground.

 

 

 

[DamianG]

Funny enough I thought of you both @Presto2 and @Ardennais on our current cruise (especially I think the latter commented about paying more for a school holiday / peak time cruise but receiving poorer service). Michelle and I cruised before we adopted our son and are very much “real cruisers” so that comment would have really got to me.

We’d rather cruise than take other holiday options but this latest version on Arvia has been a real turn off for P&O for us when we’ve always been advocates for the company

in the past. Sure, we do find fault at times but overall the positives usually far outweigh the negatives. Maybe it will again in due course for this cruise but for the first time ever I will be writing to P&O post cruise about our dining experience this time. 
 

Incidentally, the Captain advised that there are approximately 2000 Peninsular Club members on board, which therefore means that there are circa 3,800 new clients sailing on this cruise alone. I guess that this means P&O are reaching their target customers, in the school holidays at least. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by DamianG

[Megabear2]

2 hours ago, Windsurfboy said:

To increase capacity encourage sharing. Have more big tables and if you want to share you go straight to front of queue. Publicise way to get table straight away is to share

They already do this on Arvia.  They also encourage sharing in the Olive Grove and the Diner.  I never accepted a shared table in either of these venues and reading DamianG's report on the Diner and Olive Grove the tables in those restaurants couldn't cope with his 7 party size so the sharing option wouldn't offer much relief in there.

 

 

[Ardennais]

1 hour ago, Eglesbrech said:

Good management will find a way if they are motivated to do so. 

 

A bit of lateral thinking. If you don’t have enough crew quarters designate some more. Some of the passenger cabins are really not popular so move senior staff there are reassign their cabins.

 

Some one in P&O has a bit of imagination, they sell the “Chefs Table” as an alternative for formal nights, effectively just the buffet with table cloths. If they want to improve things there is always a way but you need to care enough to find it.

 

If I was consulting on this I would start with looking at the passenger journey when it comes to dining and ask the staff on the ground.

 

 

 

That would cost them money! Less revenue from cabins and increased staff costs. 

[9265359]

11 hours ago, Eglesbrech said:

Some one in P&O has a bit of imagination, they sell the “Chefs Table” as an alternative for formal nights, effectively just the buffet with table cloths. If they want to improve things there is always a way but you need to care enough to find it.

 

But that's the problem with the 'Chef's Table' - it might have waiter service on those nights but you are still sat in the buffet even if they have set the tables out with table cloths.

 

Similarly with the 'Asian' and 'Indian' spreads they do on the celebration nights to try and divert people away from MDRs.

 

On my recent cruise on Britannia I took a look at what was on offer on the Indian night but it didn't impress. Not only would you be properly eating in the buffet as there was no pretence at doing anything with it, the menu on offer was pretty lacklustre - it was all the most bland British of British 'curry' offerings that could possibly exist.

 

The chefs on board obviously know how to cook decent Indian food, and occasionally these days it still occasionally appears on the lunchtime menu (although unfortunately not as much as in the past when it used to be a different dish almost every day), so why not get them to do that? Why feel the need to 'dumb down' the menu - is it because it is in the buffet and people using the buffet want a 'dumbed down' menu?

 

Now if they had set aside one part of Horizon as the 'Indian' only or 'Asian' only spread, dressed it up a bit (or at least just turned the lighting down a bit so there was some atmosphere), and put on a properly decent spread - well then I suspect it would be the place that was overflowing and not the MDR.

 

But then I suppose they fear that would pull paying customers away from Sindhu so they have to make it 'worse' than that.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by 9265359

[Jennizor]

On 8/14/2023 at 8:49 AM, purplesea said:

Yes, if you are happy to share you still need to use the app. Although when we were on Ariva we had a lot of problems with it and often ended up walking to the MDR as walk ups and ended got given a pager.

On out recent cruise on Iona I couldn’t get the app to work so gave up on it. Apart from the nights we had pre-booked, we just went to the MDR and joined a queue for those who hadn’t pre booked with the app. Sometimes we were taken straight in, other times we had a short wait.

[Eglesbrech]

14 hours ago, Ardennais said:

That would cost them money! Less revenue from cabins and increased staff costs. 

Yes it would short term but long term it may increase profits with more return customers, greater satisfaction, the ability to charge a bit more for a better rated product etc.

 

How many customers do you think they will lose by the current service, waiting times etc. . They will attract new ones but there is a lot of good competition out there now in summer (less in winter from Southampton).

[Megabear2]

I've sailed on Celebrity, Cunard, RC, Princess and P&O in the past 12 months.  They have all changed the way you dine since before the pandemic, particularly on the "freedom" dining side.  Celebrity, RC and Princess seem to operate a choose your time with 10 minute slots, Cunard introduced Britannia "freedom" and P&O, well P&O are trying to be all things to all men.  In truth all these changes, apart from possibly the Cunard one, are being offered to offer more choice on how you dine and who with.  It was very noticeable on Princess they were not offering a lot of table sharing in freedom.  

 

The 10 minute slots gave choice on the three American lines with at least some basic time frame. The Cunard one allowed me to book a slot on an app if there was availability but when arriving for my prebooked time it seemed every other person onboard had ignored the app and just turned up with resultant mayhem.  P&O depended on the ship.

 

The ond big difference was the app/Medallion worked all the time on the American ships.

 

 

[9265359]

3 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Not wishing to be controversial here but using this logic Princess would be using most tables only once as they offer 10 minute slots through their entire dining opening times which is certainly not the case in my experience on two Regal Princess cruises.  The reservable  slots are all at 10 minute increments between 5.30pm and 9.30pm.  There are however walk up queues as well, at least on Regal and these people fill the tables which are immediately reset when someone leaves. 

 

Bookable tables are not an issue when they are offered for early or late slots - which P&O has on occasion done in the past. Let someone book at 6.00pm and it is not an issue as they will certainly be gone by the time the main rush comes at around 7.30 to 8pm. Let someone book at 9pm, and again you can be certain that tables will become free.

 

The issue is when you allow tables to be booked in that peak 'hump' period when an awful lot of people want to eat. That's when you run into the issue of - do you hope the previous occupants of the table have finished and if they haven't do you hurry them along, delay the booked guests, or simply keep the table free because you can't be certain.

 

How would people feel if they were being sat at 6pm but were told "you need to be gone by 7pm as we need the table back by then"? I doubt many would be too happy with it.

 

Now if you have a large MDR with lots of tables AND lots of other places on the ship where people will eat regularly, then it is easier to juggle and allow a number of those peak time bookings. But with the pile it high and sell it cheap P&O megaships running 'overcapacity' during the summer when all the families are on board and the pull down berths and bed sofas are used - well things are rather more difficult.

[Megabear2]

2 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

Bookable tables are not an issue when they are offered for early or late slots - which P&O has on occasion done in the past. Let someone book at 6.00pm and it is not an issue as they will certainly be gone by the time the main rush comes at around 7.30 to 8pm. Let someone book at 9pm, and again you can be certain that tables will become free.

 

The issue is when you allow tables to be booked in that peak 'hump' period when an awful lot of people want to eat. That's when you run into the issue of - do you hope the previous occupants of the table have finished and if they haven't do you hurry them along, delay the booked guests, or simply keep the table free because you can't be certain.

 

How would people feel if they were being sat at 6pm but were told "you need to be gone by 7pm as we need the table back by then"? I doubt many would be too happy with it.

 

Now if you have a large MDR with lots of tables AND lots of other places on the ship where people will eat regularly, then it is easier to juggle and allow a number of those peak time bookings. But with the pile it high and sell it cheap P&O megaships running 'overcapacity' during the summer when all the families are on board and the pull down berths and bed sofas are used - well things are rather more difficult.

As I said, I'm not intending in getting bogged down on the dining issues on Arvia - I've been shot down on that one far too many times and have absolutely no intention of revisiting the topic in detail! However see below.

 

My reply was by way of an opinion on how Princess are managing their reservation system and are allowing bookings throught their entire four hour dining period for dinner.  Of course Princess are not yet sailing their new vessels in Arvia's class so we are currently unable to judge how their dining system will cope with the 5,000+ passengers, however we can say with out doubt Regal, Sky etc are not experiencing the problems and confusion that Britannia for instance has developed in recent times and she is the same class and design.

 

Better organisation and understanding of your customer combined with a more "fixed" bookable time clearly help.  The P&O app system gives absolutely no idea how long your wait may be when you join the virtual queue whereas the Princess "timed" appointment offers that comfort even if when you arrive at the desk your table isn't immediately available.  Giving a time means if you keep the customer hanging around for a long time after his arrival he rightly will complain. Offering a vague promise you'll get to eat some time will only cause anxiety and raise anger levels, especially when you shut up shop really early after the virtual queue opens.  It's absolutely pointless saying keep looking to join the queue as there's no indication at what point it may reopen, you're turning it into a lottery.