Arvia dining, does it have enough places

[Windsurfboy]

Reading various posts including @Damiang latest and informative thread. Arvia seems to have plenty of good dining choices but always a nightmare to get into.

 

This could be due to two things

 

A) The way it is organised : the app that is not an app being misused or rubbish, maybe combined with the mixture of fixed times and freedom leading to an inefficient use of dining rooms

 

B) simply too few seats or covers as they call it in trade for amount of people.

 

In the old days with club dining two sittings you knew for 6000 people they would have to have 3000 covers. 

 

I've tried hard to find out have many people each of the venues can seat, does it add up to 3000. Or is Arvia based on faster turn over than twice per evening. Or are they hoping / forcing more people to use buffet.

 

Don't want a whingefest,  but if anyone, perhaps Molechip , has any numbers could they share them, 

 

[Megabear2]

14 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

Reading various posts including @Damiang latest and informative thread. Arvia seems to have plenty of good dining choices but always a nightmare to get into.

 

This could be due to two things

 

A) The way it is organised : the app that is not an app being misused or rubbish, maybe combined with the mixture of fixed times and freedom leading to an inefficient use of dining rooms

 

B) simply too few seats or covers as they call it in trade for amount of people.

 

In the old days with club dining two sittings you knew for 6000 people they would have to have 3000 covers. 

 

I've tried hard to find out have many people each of the venues can seat, does it add up to 3000. Or is Arvia based on faster turn over than twice per evening. Or are they hoping / forcing more people to use buffet.

 

Don't want a whingefest,  but if anyone, perhaps Molechip , has any numbers could they share them, 

 

I believe there's been a calculation by someone on here,  sorry can't remember who, who physically counted the seats/tables on a map and it fell considerably short. I think the figures were in a post late April, certainly before I cruised on her in May

 

[cruising.mark.uk]

30 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

Don't want a whingefest,  but if anyone, perhaps Molechip , has any numbers could they share them, 

 

A really interesting question, but I suspect much will depend on exactly how it is phrased.  Are you wondering what the capacity of the 2 x MDR is, what is the capacity of the 2 x MDR and MDR equivalent non-cost restaurants (6th St and Olive Grove), the capacity of those 4 plus the other no-cost venues (incl Buffet and Quays) or the capacity of all of these plus all of the extra cost venues?

 

It seems to me that if the answer to the last of those questions isn't that total capacity will allow the  max passenger capacity to be fed at each meal, then that is a real problem.  But, I'd be surprised if that was the case.

 

From our experience on Arvia in Apr and from what I've read of others' experiences, I think congestion and long waits are more likely caused by a combination of two factors (other than the, apparently temperamental app and the reportedly clunky booking system):

- More passengers than P&O expected preferring the MDRs over the other non-cost venues, both the MDR-equivalents (Olive Grove and 6th Street - especially on formal nights.  On our cruise they changed after the first formal night and for the second put the formal night menu on in the Olive Grove as well as the MDRs in an attempt to mitigate the pressure) and the Quays / Buffet.

- Not as many passengers as P&O planned for availing themselves of the many extra cost options.

[Kittyonions]

If you remember Megabear on the Arvia May cruise, on the 2nd celebration night a special “for one night only” Chicken Tikka Masala was on offer in the Quays to try to persuade passengers away from the MDRs. Don’t think it worked, because the queues were as bad as usual on that ship.

[9265359]

1 hour ago, Windsurfboy said:

In the old days with club dining two sittings you knew for 6000 people they would have to have 3000 covers. 

 

I've tried hard to find out have many people each of the venues can seat, does it add up to 3000. Or is Arvia based on faster turn over than twice per evening. Or are they hoping / forcing more people to use buffet.

 

The problem with Freedom dining is that the venues do not seat the same number of covers as Fixed, even if they have the same number of chairs.

 

As you say, 3,000 seats on two sittings gives 6,000 covers in total.

 

However 3,000 seats on Freedom - once you have taken into account the disproportionate amount of people who want to eat at 7.30-8.00 and the fewer earlier at 6.30 and those fewer again at 9.00 then you are likely looking at 4,500 covers from those 3,000 seats.

 

And so to cover 6,000 people if all wanted to eat in the MDR then you would be looking at an MDR with 30-50% more seats than is needed for Fixed.

 

But there are an awful lot more people who choose to eat in the buffet - particularly on family ships, so that reduces the burden compared to the old Fixed dining system when most used the MDR and few used the buffet (other than on the last night to avoid tipping...).

 

However that might work on most nights, but it doesn't work on the first couple of nights when people are still 'finding their feet' and tend to use the MDR and it doesn't work on celebration nights for the same reason.

[terrierjohn]

12 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

The problem with Freedom dining is that the venues do not seat the same number of covers as Fixed, even if they have the same number of chairs.

 

As you say, 3,000 seats on two sittings gives 6,000 covers in total.

 

However 3,000 seats on Freedom - once you have taken into account the disproportionate amount of people who want to eat at 7.30-8.00 and the fewer earlier at 6.30 and those fewer again at 9.00 then you are likely looking at 4,500 covers from those 3,000 seats.

 

And so to cover 6,000 people if all wanted to eat in the MDR then you would be looking at an MDR with 30-50% more seats than is needed for Fixed.

 

But there are an awful lot more people who choose to eat in the buffet - particularly on family ships, so that reduces the burden compared to the old Fixed dining system when most used the MDR and few used the buffet (other than on the last night to avoid tipping...).

 

However that might work on most nights, but it doesn't work on the first couple of nights when people are still 'finding their feet' and tend to use the MDR and it doesn't work on celebration nights for the same reason.

I seem remember the F&B manager at one Baltic luncheon saying that freedom dining enabled them to get almost 3 full covers in the MDRs as compared with only 2 with club dining.

[9265359]

Just now, terrierjohn said:

I seem remember the F&B manager at one Baltic luncheon saying that freedom dining enabled them to get almost 3 full covers in the MDRs as compared with only 2 with club dining.

 

Hmm, I have no doubt that they can turn *some* of the tables three times but *all* of the tables in the MDR three times - no chance.

 

That would mean 1/3 of people coming in for an early dinner and then being gone for *only* 1/3 of those dining wanting to eat at 7.30-8pm crowd, but then there being 1/3 of those wanting to dine doing so at 9pm or so.

 

Being a late diner - often 9pm or later then my experience is there are damn all people coming in at that time, so that would mean those 1/3 coming in between the early crowd and the 7.30-8pm crowd - now I am sure you can turn *some* tables three times between 5.30pm and 8pm, but every table - doubtful, very doubtful.

[Windsurfboy]

All I  go by is on my first cruise on Aurora,  everyone had an allocated place at one of the two sittings.  So the buffet capacity,  plus Sindhu and the glass house were extra. 

 

If I read the P&O promise correctly  , everyone if they choose should be able to eat at a waiter served included venue every night. Do they have anywhere near the capacity for this. Or have they planned for significant numbers eating in paid for restaurants and buffet to make it work.

 

Can't tell without numbers. Key is how many included waiter served covers

 

 

 

 

[CarlaMarie]

It would be interesting to know the numbers. I think you would have to look at the numbers for the 2 x MDR,  plus Olive Grove and 6th Street - because that is the evening dining that is technically sold to the passenger as part of their fare on Arvia (even though Olive Grove and 6th Street do not provide the MDR menu). 

 

Paying for select dining seems to be very popular at the moment (especially with newer cruisers), so the MDRs are struggling to cope even in spite of that. 

[9265359]

21 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

Do they have anywhere near the capacity for this.

 

Yes and no.

 

Yes, if they returned to fixed dining with two sittings, no with freedom dining and a large portion of the ship want to sit down at roughly the same time (7.30 to 8pm).

 

 

[cruising.mark.uk]

3 minutes ago, CarlaMarie said:

It would be interesting to know the numbers. I think you would have to look at the numbers for the 2 x MDR,  plus Olive Grove and 6th Street - because that is the evening dining that is technically sold to the passenger as part of their fare on Arvia (even though Olive Grove and 6th Street do not provide the MDR menu). 

 

Yes, I think you are right and that this is the total of covers closest to what @Windsurfboy is asking.  But, I think things have moved on from the days when their interpretation of what P&O is promising was accurate, i.e. when there were only one or two alternative restaurants.  And, I definitely don't think it applies to Arvia.  What might not have moved on quite so quickly, however, is the expectation of many passengers.  

 

Their last post prompted me to try to identify what P&O's promise is.  The closest I can get is here https://www.pocruises.com/onboard-activities/dining  My reading of that is they promise a variety of food for free and definitely don't promise a waiter served free meal for every passenger every night.  Others may read it differently.

[Spike11]

3 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

Hmm, I have no doubt that they can turn *some* of the tables three times but *all* of the tables in the MDR three times - no chance.

 

That would mean 1/3 of people coming in for an early dinner and then being gone for *only* 1/3 of those dining wanting to eat at 7.30-8pm crowd, but then there being 1/3 of those wanting to dine doing so at 9pm or so.

 

Being a late diner - often 9pm or later then my experience is there are damn all people coming in at that time, so that would mean those 1/3 coming in between the early crowd and the 7.30-8pm crowd - now I am sure you can turn *some* tables three times between 5.30pm and 8pm, but every table - doubtful, very doubtful.

You may be correct, but you also need to consider all the empty places in fixed dining when people chose to go to the buffet, get room service or book into speciality restaurants. I think P&O made Iona and Arvia freedom dining only to provide the greatest overall capacity. 

[CarlaMarie]

That's a fair point @cruising.mark.uk. What they do promise and advertise though is the Celebration Night Gala Dinner which in their words is available to everyone.

 

Like you, @Kittyonions and@Megabear2 have reported they've tried to persuade passengers away from the MDR on celebration nights, with for example offering the Celebration Dinner menu in the Olive Grove or other specials in different dining venues.  They wouldn't have to do that if there was enough room for everyone, nor if they hadn't underestimated the popularity of traditional dining.

Edited August 13, 2023 by CarlaMarie

[Megabear2]

As a matter of interest, I'm seeing lots of talk about the two MDRs, the Diner and Olive Grove in any attempt at calculation.  I assume these four spaces are the ones occupied by the 4 dining rooms on Iona?  I know there is Olive Grove on Iona too, albeit some items are paid for.  What I seem to be missing here is Green & Co's role/impact on the Arvia dining situation.  When I dined there in the evening it seemed a very large space which was mainly empty.  The sushi bar was busy but not many tables in the actual restaurant.  I actually liked the food and dined there three times, twice in the evening and once for lunch.  It was always instantly available on the app and a straight walk in but it was also quite expensive with my three course meal being over £30.

 

If this lack of take up is continuing how is this affecting the dining situation?  I've seen lots of posts about reservations being made for speciality dining but I don’t see Green & Co getting much clamour for bookings.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Megabear2

[Ginb56]

So if you’re happy to share a table on freedom dining in MDR, do you still need to use the app that’s not an app to book, or can you just turn up at any time and get a shared table fairly easily? 

[purplesea]

56 minutes ago, Ginb56 said:

So if you’re happy to share a table on freedom dining in MDR, do you still need to use the app that’s not an app to book, or can you just turn up at any time and get a shared table fairly easily? 

Yes, if you are happy to share you still need to use the app. Although when we were on Ariva we had a lot of problems with it and often ended up walking to the MDR as walk ups and ended got given a pager.

[Gettingwarmer]

8 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

As a matter of interest, I'm seeing lots of talk about the two MDRs, the Diner and Olive Grove in any attempt at calculation.  I assume these four spaces are the ones occupied by the 4 dining rooms on Iona?  I know there is Olive Grove on Iona too, albeit some items are paid for.  What I seem to be missing here is Green & Co's role/impact on the Arvia dining situation.  When I dined there in the evening it seemed a very large space which was mainly empty.  The sushi bar was busy but not many tables in the actual restaurant.  I actually liked the food and dined there three times, twice in the evening and once for lunch.  It was always instantly available on the app and a straight walk in but it was also quite expensive with my three course meal being over £30.

 

If this lack of take up is continuing how is this affecting the dining situation?  I've seen lots of posts about reservations being made for speciality dining but I don’t see Green & Co getting much clamour for bookings.

This is a good point. Olive Grove on Iona and Green & Co on Arvia take up the same space. Iona’s Olive Grove is always packed with a huge turnaround. If  Green & Co is fairly empty most of the time then this is a large disparity. Obviously this space is much smaller than the main MDRs but could make a difference. 

[Kittyonions]

Very good point, Megabear!  Although the menu didn’t appeal to us, we did look in a couple of times. Very few customers in there (may have been you!). Another point is on Iona Olive Grove was open from lunch through to evening service, however on Arvia was only open for a few hours each evening. This may have been due to staffing problems.

[Fionboard]

It is obvious now that all the venues on the new ships are too small for the numbers wanting to use them. Was told this by the hotel manager on Iona last year. She admitted that this was the reason pre booking was necessary and apologised for disappointment caused.  No disappointment for me as I stick to the small ships! 

[9265359]

11 hours ago, Spike11 said:

You may be correct, but you also need to consider all the empty places in fixed dining when people chose to go to the buffet, get room service or book into speciality restaurants. I think P&O made Iona and Arvia freedom dining only to provide the greatest overall capacity. 

 

No, as before, Freedom gives less capacity than Fixed - Fixed you *will* be able to turn a table twice 6.30pm and 8.30pm, but with Freedom you *might* be able to if there are sufficient early and late diners, but if they all turn up at 7.30pm then you are out of luck.

 

The decision to put Freedom dining onto the ships wasn't to improve capacity, but to provide the illusion of choice to customers. 

 

The old 6.30pm and 8.30pm Fixed dining suited the traditional cruising customer base, but as P&O have reached out to a new and younger customer base, then telling people they were eating at 6.30pm, a time few would ever consider eating, was not going to sell too many cruises.

 

And so they instigate Freedom, and you only find out the issues with it once you have paid your money and are onboard the ship.

 

30 minutes ago, Fionboard said:

It is obvious now that all the venues on the new ships are too small for the numbers wanting to use them. Was told this by the hotel manager on Iona last year. She admitted that this was the reason pre booking was necessary and apologised for disappointment caused. 

 

For as long as P&O has had Freedom dining there has been pre-booking, it is just that in the past it was done by pager. Moving to booking using a phone *should* be easier for the customer as they don't have to trek to and from the restaurant to collect one.

 

I say *should* because the implementation of the mobile booking by P&O leaves a lot to be desired, and is not helped by the retention of the pager system and the staff on the desks being reluctant to tell people stood there to 'go away' and giving them priority over the mobile booking system.

 

And yes in the past there might have been fewer queues because people were happy to share tables, but again times change and people are less happy to do so, and if you have the majority of passengers willing to share then it is easy for the restaurant to continually fill and serve tables, but when the majority has flipped over to wanting non-sharing tables then that becomes harder to do.

 

36 minutes ago, Fionboard said:

No disappointment for me as I stick to the small ships! 

 

Of course you literally pay the price for doing that - just compare the per night cost on a mega ship to a small ship and you will see the price premium you are paying.

 

And of course you are happy doing that, but P&O with the mega ships is aiming to a different market to you - and likely one that is more profitable to them despite the lower per night cost due to the amount of high profit drinks packages sold on the mega ships compared to the small ships.

[laslomas]

This is the detail on the P&O website. Is that really true? Certainly not from what I have been reading on this forum. It seems you need a lot of planning to eat in the MDR, so I would think there are not enough places and the description needs a bit of tweaking.

[Presto2]

1 hour ago, laslomas said:

This is the detail on the P&O website. Is that really true? Certainly not from what I have been reading on this forum. It seems you need a lot of planning to eat in the MDR, so I would think there are not enough places and the description needs a bit of tweaking.

Don't get too excited there's probably a clause somewhere in font size 2 in the brochure that has adds 'if you're lucky' 😉

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, 9265359 said:

 

No, as before, Freedom gives less capacity than Fixed - Fixed you *will* be able to turn a table twice 6.30pm and 8.30pm, but with Freedom you *might* be able to if there are sufficient early and late diners, but if they all turn up at 7.30pm then you are out of luck.

 

The decision to put Freedom dining onto the ships wasn't to improve capacity, but to provide the illusion of choice to customers. 

 

The old 6.30pm and 8.30pm Fixed dining suited the traditional cruising customer base, but as P&O have reached out to a new and younger customer base, then telling people they were eating at 6.30pm, a time few would ever consider eating, was not going to sell too many cruises.

 

And so they instigate Freedom, and you only find out the issues with it once you have paid your money and are onboard the ship.

 

 

For as long as P&O has had Freedom dining there has been pre-booking, it is just that in the past it was done by pager. Moving to booking using a phone *should* be easier for the customer as they don't have to trek to and from the restaurant to collect one.

 

I say *should* because the implementation of the mobile booking by P&O leaves a lot to be desired, and is not helped by the retention of the pager system and the staff on the desks being reluctant to tell people stood there to 'go away' and giving them priority over the mobile booking system.

 

And yes in the past there might have been fewer queues because people were happy to share tables, but again times change and people are less happy to do so, and if you have the majority of passengers willing to share then it is easy for the restaurant to continually fill and serve tables, but when the majority has flipped over to wanting non-sharing tables then that becomes harder to do.

 

 

Of course you literally pay the price for doing that - just compare the per night cost on a mega ship to a small ship and you will see the price premium you are paying.

 

And of course you are happy doing that, but P&O with the mega ships is aiming to a different market to you - and likely one that is more profitable to them despite the lower per night cost due to the amount of high profit drinks packages sold on the mega ships compared to the small ships.

I still consider that freedom dining should enable the cruise line to provide more covers than 2 sitting fixed dining, but of course they do need to have adequate staffing, and they do need to be well managed.

I remember now that the discussion I had with a food and beverage manager was actually on Celebrity Eclipse at the CC welcome party, and I admit that the way they manage restaurant staff is possibly why he felt they were able to achieve almost 3 times the covers in their freedom dining. From the assistant Maitre D, through the head waiters, and down to the waiters and assistants, they all got stuck into clearing finished tables and turning them round in no time at all, and with an expected 90 minutes max dining time 3 times covers is achievable.

[9265359]

22 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

I still consider that freedom dining should enable the cruise line to provide more covers than 2 sitting fixed dining

 

That isn't going to happen. MDRs do not make money so the space for them is kept to the minimum.

 

24 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

I remember now that the discussion I had with a food and beverage manager was actually on Celebrity Eclipse at the CC welcome party, and I admit that the way they manage restaurant staff is possibly why he felt they were able to achieve almost 3 times the covers in their freedom dining. From the assistant Maitre D, through the head waiters, and down to the waiters and assistants, they all got stuck into clearing finished tables and turning them round in no time at all, and with an expected 90 minutes max dining time 3 times covers is achievable.

 

90 minutes max dining time - so working back, from an 8.30pm dining time which most passengers would consider the latest acceptable time, that means the first sitting is 5.30pm, then 7pm, before the 8.30pm - and that is with no downtime for cleaning, getting people in, etc.

 

You really think that 1/3 of passengers want to eat at 5.30pm, and for the 7pm sitting then I suggest that is either too late or too early for the next 1/3.

 

You cannot do three covers for the majority of passengers.

[terrierjohn]

5 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

That isn't going to happen. MDRs do not make money so the space for them is kept to the minimum.

 

 

90 minutes max dining time - so working back, from an 8.30pm dining time which most passengers would consider the latest acceptable time, that means the first sitting is 5.30pm, then 7pm, before the 8.30pm - and that is with no downtime for cleaning, getting people in, etc.

 

You really think that 1/3 of passengers want to eat at 5.30pm, and for the 7pm sitting then I suggest that is either too late or too early for the next 1/3.

 

You cannot do three covers for the majority of passengers.

The MDRs on both Celebrity and P&O are open for passengers to enter until 9:30, so there must be some passengers who dine later your estimate, otherwise the dining times would have adjusted long ago.