Could a Titanic type tragedy happen with modern cruise ships?

[dougnewmanatsea]

The simple answer to your question is, "yes". Just about anything could happen. But it is very unlikely to happen.

 

There have, in fact, been disasters in the modern era involving passenger ships and large loss of life. The most prominent one was the sinking of the Baltic cruise ferry ESTONIA in 1994 which has been called a "modern TITANIC". Perhaps more likely to affect a modern cruise ship would be a situation like that which happened in 1992 to the SCANDINAVIAN STAR. This was a fire in which most of the loss of life occurred when passengers were asphyxiated by the smoke.

[Chivalrygirl]

Am I correct in recalling in yesteryears drills the fire doors were also part of the drill? I have some vague recollections of these doors being closed and being warned that this was going to happen.

[sail7seas]

I seem to recall on occassion some doors being closed during crew drills. I don't think we've ever seen fire doors closed during passenger drills.

 

As to could it happen? Sure, of course, it's possible though highly unlikely.

 

Living is a risk. Every day when you get in your car or walk down the street you put yourself at risk.

 

You can choose to worry your life away or acknowledge risks, take reasonable precautions to avoid unnecessary risk and get on with your life.

 

[babyher]

Of course anything could happen

 

I think if it did happen your chance of survival is certainly greater than in 1912. Better safety precautions and training. State of the art radar, satellites, communication technology. Certainly more than enough life boats for everyone. Highly trained air and sea rescue teams.

 

I do understand what Construction Dude is speaking of though. In the event the ship hits an iceberg today in the same manner The Titanic did. Titanic had hours before the ship sank. In that time, with todays vast improvements, I think with the exception of anyone who may had died on impact. Everyone has a good chance of surviving.

 

If its matter of some sort of terrorism , an explosive, a plane slamming into the ship. That would depend on so many factors. Obviously a lot more potential for damage and death on impact , a lot more damage to a larger portion of the ship than an iceberg, Who knows how many safety stations will be destroyed . How quickly will this terrorist act cause fire or implosion to race through the ship? How big a hole in the ship will it leave that would cause how much more water to rush in, which will limit time to get off the ship before it sinks.

 

Certainly a whole bigger scenario than hitting an iceberg.

 

And the panic factor comes into play as someone mentioned. I was in a department store once when the fire alarm went off. Not a sign of smoke or fire, it had just gone off . The second it went off some woman in the store paniced and literally ran through the store grabbing her son and flew out the door. God help anyone who would have been in her way.

 

Within a minute they made an announcement that everything was fine, no fire and that one of the fire alarms had been bumped into by a worker moving a pallett of merchandise in the receiveing area of the store.

 

Imagine this woman and a whole bunch of others in a real emergency?

[Randyk47]

We cruise mainly on Caribbean cruises so we haven't given much thought to hitting an iceberg but thinking more in terms of other emergencies (i.e., striking another ship, fire) we really don't have a lot of concern. We've sailed enough with HAL to feel pretty comfortable on most of their ships, particularly R and S class, and could probably get ourselves pretty much anywhere on the ship from a given point. We don't make a big issue out of it but we do pay attention to the drills, at least in terms of where we should go assuming that point is not blocked off by an emergency.

 

Panic is another problem. Having experienced one of the 9/11 attacks up close and personal we at least have some idea of how we respond in emergency situations. Of course that's not much help with other people but we both are pretty cool heads and I have no doubts we'd get ourselves out of most any situation. Not saying we have a "been there, done that" attitude and dismiss the potential for another disaster in our life but it has made us more aware and, without verbalizing it to one another, I think we both know what we'd do if there was a problem.

[dougnewmanatsea]

Am I correct in recalling in yesteryears drills the fire doors were also part of the drill? I have some vague recollections of these doors being closed and being warned that this was going to happen.

I have seen fire doors closed as part of crew drills but never the regular passenger boat drill.

 

It is possible that you have been on ships where fire doors have been closed for a crew drill and the passengers were warned that this would happen, so you would not be alarmed.

 

Some ships also have watertight doors in passenger areas. (They all have watertight doors on the lower decks; it just depends on whether there are any passenger spaces low down in the ship enough that the doors affect passengers.) As an example, aboard QE2, the lowest deck with cabins (Five Deck) has watertight doors that are usually closed when entering and leaving port, during bad weather, and during drills. Passengers are warned of this as you have to take a specific staircase to get to your Five Deck cabin when the doors are closed. I don't think any of today's HAL ships have this situation, but I could be wrong.

[Tinknock50]

I can not imagine any condition that would cause a ship to founder. I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this vessel. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that.

[julia]

Very interesting thread CD.... I think I'll add my two cents to the "what if" scenario that you proposed.

 

My very dear friend is a 68 year old seasoned cruiser and cruising is always one of our favorite topics. About 15 years ago (and forgive my sketchy details on this) she was sailing across the big pond on a major line when, approaching England, they were struck by another vessel just off the coast in the middle of the night. Her recount of that harrowing experience (the jolt, the alarms, the panic, the running down the hall in nightgown) have always stuck with me, and I firmly believe that a disaster at sea can easily happen. She will vividly tell you that they could not report to their muster stations because their lifeboats were NOT there. It was the area that had been hit.

 

Most fortunately, no one was seriously injured, and their ship was able to limp into the dock the next morning, greeted by panicked family, friends and press. The ship was obviously unable to make it's next sailing (and apparently THOSE cruisers were better compensated than my friend who experienced all of the anxiety onboard!)

 

From this "first person" account, I have always been cautious when sailing, and while I never take valuables with me, I do keep ALL personal belongings (phone, passports, credits cards, money, etc) in a small hip pack and at "the ready" ALWAYS... ya just never know.

 

And BTW.... I tend to resent those who think the muster drill is a big joke and so they show up late and act like idiots. They could cost someone their life in a REAL disaster.

[joeinsb]

Here's what I don't get. So many posters express fear of sailing (or flying, probably the most anxiety-producing form of transport), yet they ignore automobile accidents and pedestrian fatilities, which claim far more lives than any cruise ship or airliner disaster. And you know what? There's no lifeboat drill that protects against those. I can't tell you how many near misses, not to mention fatals, I've seen while driving, or how many times my wife and I have almost been run over in a crosswalk while on our morning stroll. Where is the muster drill or where are the safety briefings that protect us against those mishaps? Frankly, I feel safer cruising than I do driving or even hanging around the house.

[julia]

Here's what I don't get. So many posters express fear of sailing (or flying, probably the most anxiety-producing form of transport), yet they ignore automobile accidents and pedestrian fatilities, which claim far more lives than any cruise ship or airliner disaster. And you know what? There's no lifeboat drill that protects against those. I can't tell you how many near misses, not to mention fatals, I've seen while driving, or how many times my wife and I have almost been run over in a crosswalk while on our morning stroll. Where is the muster drill or where are the safety briefings that protect us against those mishaps? Frankly, I feel safer cruising than I do driving or even hanging around the house.

 

Joe:

 

Your point is well taken.... but I didn't read in this thread that anyone "feared" cruising. Also, the proportion of people who "drive cars and are pedestrians" FAR FAR FAR outnumber those who cruise. No one is "ignoring" those numbers. Driving and walking are necessities, cruising and flying aren't.

 

Bottom line: BE CAREFUL AND PAY ATTENTION!!! :)

[Chivalrygirl]

I have a huge problem with the idea that some cruise lines are preparing to take super liners down to Antarticia, I find this absolutely appaling and although I would love to visit the area, no way would I go this way. There have been problems down there this summer, one a Norwegian small ship hit a reef and had to be rescued and currently we have a Japanese whaler that has had a fire floundering around in the Antartic south of NZ, should it discharge its fuel etc., we will also have a ecological disaster. Should a huge super cruise liner run into trouble down there, it most definitely would be another Titanic, there is no way so many people so far from land could ever be rescued. Perhaps some pressure should be put on the cruise lines to start respecting this last bastion of pristine conditions and try and dissaude them from taking the super lines to this particular part of the globe. I also have never forgotten the horror of the Erebus disaster when Air NZ managed to put an aircraft into the side Mt. Erebus, and the dreadful job involved in bringing the deceased back home and the folk that had to attend to this miserable job, its not a nice scenario, believe me.

[PRINSENDAM]

Gee my problem would be getting off the ship without starting to recite all the lines from Titanic:

..."the ship's bloody sinkin'"

..."Music to drown by...now I KNOW we're in First Class"

..."Half the people on this ship are going to die!"...

"Not the Better Half"

..."I need a knife...I need a knife"

etc, etc.

 

As you can see I've watched that MUCH too many times:)

 

 

 

Goatee,

 

 

You forgot the best one. I'm saving for the day I need to enter a boat....

 

 

"I HAVE A CHILD! I HAVE A CHILD!"

Stephen ;)

[Aussie Gal]

Val,

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the subject of a super liner going down to Antarctica. It is the last pristine piece of this earth and to think something major could happen down worries me also.

 

I have been fortunate to see photos of the rescue of the passengers from the Norwegian vessel. There were only 300 passengers involved and yet it was a major undertaking to get them all on to the sister ship find enough bedding and take them back to Ushuaia through the rough seas. For the passengers on the rescue ship, their time in Antarctica was cut short and they had to return back through the rough seas only a day or so after they had gone through them. Imagine trying to rescue 3000 passengers, it is beyond thinking about. Having been down there and knowing how far one is from civilization, I wonder what the cruise line involved is thinking of.

 

I hate to think of an oil spillage happening and washing into that lovely clean ocean and destroying so many wonderful native birds and mammals down there.

 

Jennie

Jennie

[Chivalrygirl]

Looks like me and thee are now on a crusade, but do you thinking anybody very much is listening? I am sure our respective PMs are taking it all on board, they don't like the thought either, but of course they will sail these big ships out of South America no doubt.

[bepsf]

Icebergs: There's no way a modern ship is gonna suddenly smack into an iceberg with modern navigation/radar.

Mid-Ocean Collision: Again, with modern navigation and communications systems - you'd have to have two sets of insanely stupid (or drunk) people...

Fire: An ever-present danger, but with modern ships that are built with fewer combustible materials and well-trained staff, the likelihood of major loss of life becomes slimmer every day.

Terrorism is where the real dangers lie. Rather than a "Titanic"-esque disaster, I'd say "Lusitania" is much more likely. I read recently where back in the 1980's, Libya targeted QE2 on her Med Cruises to Israel that were chartered to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Israeli independence - Egypt's President Anwar Sadat had to personally nix that plan.

I'd imagine a ship the size/capacity of the RCCL newbuilds on a major holiday weekend (Independence Day? Christmas?) would be the greatest target...

COS:

Enjoy this 30-second version of "Titanic" played by bunnies:

http://www.angryalien.com/0604/titanicbunnies.html

:D

[dougnewmanatsea]

Icebergs: There's no way a modern ship is gonna suddenly smack into an iceberg with modern navigation/radar.

Well, maybe not "suddenly smack into an iceberg", but there could be trouble with ice.

 

Mid-Ocean Collision: Again, with modern navigation and communications systems - you'd have to have two sets of insanely stupid (or drunk) people...

It does not have to be "mid-ocean" to be bad.

 

Look at the collision between NORWEGIAN DREAM and EVER DECENT in 1999 in the English Channel. Imagine if it were the EVER DECENT ramming NORWEGIAN DREAM instead of vice versa. The situation could have been very ugly to say the least.

 

And we are talking here about two large, modern ships, each bristling with all the latest technology. It still didn't stop them from hitting each other.

 

Fire: An ever-present danger, but with modern ships that are built with fewer combustible materials and well-trained staff, the likelihood of major loss of life becomes slimmer every day.

The SCANDINAVIAN STAR was built with incombustible materials. It did not stop 158 people from dying in the fire.

 

Arguably more important is that sprinklers are now mandated (previously not the case unless the ship had combustible materials), but nonetheless, fire is a very real danger. The STAR PRINCESS fire demonstrated that there were great vulnerabilities; while in that case everything worked perfectly, it does not mean it always will.

 

Terrorism is where the real dangers lie. Rather than a "Titanic"-esque disaster, I'd say "Lusitania" is much more likely.

LUSITANIA was torpedoed by an enemy government. Just as unlikely these days as TITANIC, I think.

 

More likely would be someone driving up alongside a berthed ship with a pickup truck full of explosives, or something like that.

 

At any rate, it may be comforting to us to think that the "real dangers" lie in actions taken by human beings, but nature is plenty dangerous too, no matter how much modern technology we may have.

 

I read recently where back in the 1980's, Libya targeted QE2 on her Med Cruises to Israel that were chartered to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Israeli independence - Egypt's President Anwar Sadat had to personally nix that plan.

I think it was actually Colonel Gaddafi who was supposed to have ordered that the action be called off, but I could be wrong.

 

Either way, this would be a conscious act of war taken by a recognized state with fighter jets and missiles and other things that governments tend to own. Most terrorist attacks against "soft targets" in recent years have not been the actions of states but other entities with at best tenuous connections to states, and they tend to involve more improvised methods (suicide attacks in general). Hence my pickup truck scenario.

 

I'd imagine a ship the size/capacity of the RCCL newbuilds on a major holiday weekend (Independence Day? Christmas?) would be the greatest target...

I imagine QM2 would be the greatest target simply because she is the most famous.

[RevNeal]

Thanks Brian ... the had slapping the windshield had be laughing really hard! :) VERY funny!

 

That an ... "I have a child!"

 

Have you seen Brokeback mountain by the Bunnies????

 

http://www.starz.com/features/brokebackmountain/

 

:D

 

The Exorcist was good too!

 

http://www.angryalien.com/0204/exorcistbunnies.html

[Atomica]

Have you seen Brokeback mountain by the Bunnies????

 

http://www.starz.com/features/brokebackmountain/

 

:D

 

The Exorcist was good too!

 

http://www.angryalien.com/0204/exorcistbunnies.html

 

Very clever!

[bdcbbq]

If you check the statistics, you're probably safer on the cruise ship than you are driving to and from work. So, if you want to stay alive... book a cruise.:D

 

I'll go one better and say the odds are better that you would be killed in a plane crash on your way to a cruise than from a Titanic type catastrophe.:D

[virgilhilts]

I've enjoyed all the speculation on this topic.

 

For myself, I'll tell you what: If I end up bobbing around in Glacier Bay on a moonless night, I intend to send a sharply worded letter to the Holland America Line.

 

Bill

[Copper10-8]

I've enjoyed all the speculation on this topic.

 

For myself, I'll tell you what: If I end up bobbing around in Glacier Bay on a moonless night, I intend to send a sharply worded letter to the Holland America Line.

 

Bill

 

Well, allow me to help you along with the address;) :

Mr. Stein Kruse, CEO & President Holland America Line

300 Eliott Avenue West

Seattle, WA 98119

Don't forget to ask for fair compensation; at least two free cruises in the PH with a butler:eek: .

In all seriousness; be prepared and have a plan!! Just like in a commercial aircraft, know your evac route and your exits. Think about what you are going to take with you if you only have a limited amount of time and restrictions (size/weight) as to what you will be allowed to take *don't forget warm clothing) (and have it handy so you don't need 15 minutes to get it together).

Panic or at least, a hightened state of anxiety is common during unnatural events such as emergency evacs when fine folks are taken out of their comfort zone(s). Again, have a plan and follow directions by trained crew (and trained they are on HAL). Take a deep breath and think of the big picture! Don't get dragged into the antics of folks who have lost it but try to calm them down. If that doesn't work, and this may seem cold, leave them and continue with your plan. Use common sense and, I can't stress this enough, stay calm!! It really does pay to take the muster drill on embarkation day serious for all of the maybe fifteen minutes it takes! Let's hope you never have to practise these measures but, if you do, be prepared!

BTW, here's a pic of one of those inflatables the Chief talked about,

[debsjc]

I agree it's better to be prepared and have a plan, even though it's very unlikely anything will happen.

 

I work for an airline, so I fly quite a lot - but still every time I get on a flight I listen to the safety demo, I check my life jacket is under my seat, I count the number of rows to the exits, both ways in case 1 is blocked. It's not that I'm a nervous traveller, just that it makes sense to think about it.

 

Another good tip a fireman gave me is to carefully check the fire exits and your evacuation route when you stay in a hotel. Could you find your way in a dark smoke filled corridor? Keep a small torch by your bedside to grab it if there is an evacuation.

 

I've been evacuated from a hotel at 3am and it's really hard to think straight when you are woken up suddenly by a loud bell. You heart is pounding and you are 3/4 asleep and it's really scary. Also I forgot to put shoes on and hurt my feet on the metal fire escape. :(

[Addict]

Hi

 

Just a thought - IF it were necessary to don lifejackets and you were unable to get to your cabin for some reason - do the ships carry spares at the muster stations?

 

Sue

[Copper10-8]

Hi

 

Just a thought - IF it were necessary to don lifejackets and you were unable to get to your cabin for some reason - do the ships carry spares at the muster stations?

 

Sue

 

Hi Sue; Yes, they do! There are plenty of lifejackets stored at the muster stations just for that reason

[Tinknock50]

I've enjoyed all the speculation on this topic.

 

For myself, I'll tell you what: If I end up bobbing around in Glacier Bay on a moonless night, I intend to send a sharply worded letter to the Holland America Line.

 

Bill

 

 

......and I will say in that letter, "I will never sail HAL again!"

That'll teach 'em!