Another man overboard (Freedom of the Seas)

[ShedQueen77]

[quote name='BecciBoo']The similarity is in conditioning our young people to be more responsible at an earlier age by letting them suffer the consequences of their poor behavior instead of making excuses for it. There is a direct correlation to Pavlov's findings and the fact that we learn from experience. If you get burned by an iron, it is a much better deterent than just hearing you will get burned, and don't go saying I advocate the burning of children. That's obsurd. You people really do not get the message. It was specifically refering to drinking and its after affects, not falling off a balcony. It is cause and effect. If a person is a responsible drinker, he will not get so drunk that he falls off. And in any case, I was making a statement in reply to the "Should the cruise line take responsibility for everybodies misbehavior and penalize everyone with more rules because a few persons will not take responsibility for their own actions. We do not know if alcohol had a part in this particular incident yet. I was commenting on making more laws. We don't need more rules, we need more responsible persons. That is the only comment I was making. I have plenty of sympathy for the family of this person. I don't have sympathy for the laxity of parents these days.[/quote]

Thank you. Now I realize why it didn't click 100% for me. Classical conditioning involves a bodily reponse to a stimulus. In Pavlov's experiment, the salivating was the bodily response to the stimulus of the bell ringing, meaning food was on its way. It also can be applied to a situation where your heart begins racing in fear during a scary movie.

Operant conditioning (Thorndyke, B. F. Skinner) is the learning of behavior and its likelihood of repetition through the effects of pleasant and unpleasant consequences, like rewards and punishment, positive and negative reinforcement. That's where I got a little confused! :)

I tend not to have sympathy for lax parents either. However, you can be an almost perfect parent and your children will still make mistakes. Sometimes some of those mistakes are on a larger scale than others, but a parent can not always be held 100% responsible for their child's behavior; especially when that 'child' is a legal adult.

I will agree that it is WAY past due time that people stop blaming everyone around them (their parents, the cruiselines, or whatnot) for their transgressions and start looking within to see where that responsibility truly lies.

PS--SweetAngel....LMAO!!! :D

[Sundagger]

[quote name='RAJay']Hey Critics,

My wife and I are on the Freedom of the Seas right now... actually on our Honeymoon. We were playing Bingo on Deck 5 around 10 am and they paged this guy like 50 times... It seemed like every 4-5 minutes. Around noon (or so) the captain announced that there was a man missing and that the ship had turned around to return to the point where the ship was when the man was last seen. They had his name and pictured plastered on every TV screen on the ship, and constantly (still) on channel 10 of RCTV. Everyone on the ship was talking about what to do and different scenarios etc... Orginally they cancelled San Juan and said we were going to St. Maarten & Thomas. But later when the ship finally stopped retracing its path and continued on the voyage they said we were cancelling St. Thomas and going to San Juan first. Talk on the ship was that we were going to San Juan because it is a U.S controlled territory so they would have control over everyone as they left the ship for port. At port the Coast Guard boarded the ship and escorted us to the pier, then FBI (about 20 people) boarded the ship. They had an evidence response team and dog etc... It's a crazy thing to be witness to.

Luckily everyone on board has been pretty understanding and we hope this guy is found safe.

At 50 cents a minute I think this post has been worth it... but I probably won't be on again till I get back from the cruise.

Crazy First Cruise!!!! Crazy Honeymoon Cruise!!!!

-Jason & his now wife, Megan

P.S. They gave everyone onboard a $200 ship credit.[/quote]

Thanks for posting this - details are not readily available here. St. Thomas is also US territory, but they probably wanted to accomodate the FBI investigation more conveniently in San Juan. It must have been terribly hard for the captain to decide to abandon the search.

[cruiserbryce]

how sad...

[Ladylouwho]

[quote name='SherriZ366']This is the family that is suing because their son fell off the Mariner. In addtion to the video mentioned in the article where he falls over the ship, RCCL has video (taken by the young men) of he and his friends drinking the booze they smuggled onto the ship in mouthwash containers, etc.[/QUOTE]

Wow, after reading that link I am thinking those parents are in denial. I truly feel empathy for the loss of their son. It was a tragic accident. But an accident it was. The young man was so drunk he had been cut off from a bartender serving him on board. He was so tall and the height of the railing was fit for the average height person. The floor was slippery beneath him. It is a boat...the floors will be wet. They ask why didn't someone monitor the video 24/7, come on, even if they had one person watching the video 24/7, what if he/she sneezed or looked away for a second? He/she could have missed it! How much more per person will they charge to have people monitoring video 24/7? Where would it stop?

I am not sticking up for the cruise line, I just think they need to let their son rest in peace and keep his memory alive and go on with their lives!

I have teenagers and a grandson. I grew up in the '60's, went to college in the 70's, I have seen it all. These people need to move on in their grief. I don't know how they could have expected the cruise line to have prevented this.

The father saying because the cruise passengers aren't driving they should be safe on a cruise ship drinking as much as they want? Come on! You can get blasted, walk out of a bar and walk into the street and be killed by a car. Is it the poor sober drivers fault because you walked in front of a moving vehicle drunk?

I have much empathy for this family as over 30 years ago something like this (not related to a cruise ship) happened in my family. There was a death. There was no lawsuit. Sometimes it isn't someone else's fault. We moved on and kept the memory alive.

The result of this case and the Smith's has been for RCCL to treat the rest of their passengers like children regarding alcohol. I feel bad for these terrible, tragic accidents, but come on... how many young people die on land because of alcohol related incidents? Many more per capita than on cruise ships. This is just human behavior. What happens on land will happen on cruise ships. No new rules/laws will change that.

[BearySweet2Cruise]

[quote name='pmshirl']Just got off the Liberty this past Sunday. Had a balcony cabin and the 2 men (approx. in late 20's) were plastered every night and out on the balcony. We could hear the chairs being knocked against the balcony glass, the two of them horsing around and pushing each other while falling on to the balcony deck. When they were inside their cabins, it sounded as if someone was gonna come through the wall, and this went on until 5am. We tried to call and report it, and the call was on hold for over 45 minutes and no one ever picked up the call. The next morning we reported it in person, and the noise continued every night and nothing was done about it. The security dept. must take action against these type of cruisers, or they will continue to have over board pax!

After arriving at the Miami airport on 6/16, we were told by an airline employee, that 11 Cubans were caught climbing from a row boat on to a carnival cruise ship, after it left Miami pier. The coast guard did not interfere with removing the 11 cubans until the ship was to get into international waters. That way they would be returned to Cuba.
I would like to know how someone can get on to the ship, just like how someone can fall overboard![/quote]

The cubans that were picked up has to do with the maritime law. I had a cabin steward explain this to us once on one of our cruises. Seems that if a raft full of cubans are out at sea, and a ship spots them, the maritime law says they have to pick them up, and not sail past them. They are then turned over to immigration once in port.
I have sometimes wondered where they house them and feed them. I would not think they would be allowed to be part of everybody else on the ship (??)

[BearySweet2Cruise]

[quote name='Ladylouwho']Wow, after reading that link I am thinking those parents are in denial. I truly feel empathy for the loss of their son. It was a tragic accident. But an accident it was. The young man was so drunk he had been cut off from a bartender serving him on board. He was so tall and the height of the railing was fit for the average height person. The floor was slippery beneath him. It is a boat...the floors will be wet. They ask why didn't someone monitor the video 24/7, come on, even if they had one person watching the video 24/7, what if he/she sneezed or looked away for a second? He/she could have missed it! How much more per person will they charge to have people monitoring video 24/7? Where would it stop?

[/quote]
Great post.. what amazes me is that families continue to sue the cruise line when clearly the cruise line could not have prevented, or in the case of suicides, did not case the death.. and somehow these families often times still end up winning their lawsuit...

[Ladylouwho]

You know what else? Because people sue the cruise lines (or whomever) they not only make it worse for the rest of us, (more cost, more rules) they make it harder for the people who REALLY have a case against the cruise lines (or whomever). I mean sometimes things happen and it IS someones fault. Then there should be lawsuits to get financial relief/justice whatever. But in these recent alcohol related cases and in the cases of suicide, I mean exactly whose fault is it? Isn't there a point when one is responsible for one's own actions????

[Sea Island Lady]

[QUOTE]Thanks for the update and congratulations!

This article proves that it (stupid stunts or accidents) doesn't just happen on cruise ships.

"Clothing was discovered on the roof, leading authorities to suspect the man and woman, in their early 20s, may have been having sex. Their identities were not released."
[URL]http://www.thestate.com/136/story/97081.html[/URL]

Please, no jokes! This is very sad. :([/QUOTE][quote name='Sylvia and Rich']:( How Sad....[/quote]

Yes it is! Here is an update on the couple.
[URL]http://www.thestate.com/426/story/97793.html[/URL]

[Senior Cruiser]

Of course it's a "sad" event but I don't think the ship should have spent so much time looking as to affect the itinerary when so much time has elapsed since the presumed fall. It's very hard to find someone unless they have just fallen - the Coast Guard can to a better job, the chances are small.

In this case, since St. Thomas is the only port I try to avoid, I would not have been upset, but probably hundreds were disappointed.

I am in favor of the line suing the estate or family of the missing person.

People do drink to excess on ships, I don't know what the line can do about people falling overboard, but incidents of horseplay should be reported and the line should be attentive!

About the Cubans, of course they would be accommodated in the crew quarters, not among the passengers!!! Those quarters are real tight - certain crew members might have had to be given a passenger cabin in an inconspicuous area to make room.

[sweet angel]

[quote name='luvmytbear']PS--SweetAngel....LMAO!!! :D[/quote]

:confused: Huh? What did I say that was funny? :confused:

[SherriZ366]

[quote name='Ladylouwho']Wow, after reading that link I am thinking those parents are in denial. I truly feel empathy for the loss of their son. It was a tragic accident. But an accident it was. The young man was so drunk he had been cut off from a bartender serving him on board. He was so tall and the height of the railing was fit for the average height person. The floor was slippery beneath him. It is a boat...the floors will be wet. They ask why didn't someone monitor the video 24/7, come on, even if they had one person watching the video 24/7, what if he/she sneezed or looked away for a second? He/she could have missed it! How much more per person will they charge to have people monitoring video 24/7? Where would it stop?

I am not sticking up for the cruise line, I just think they need to let their son rest in peace and keep his memory alive and go on with their lives!

I have teenagers and a grandson. I grew up in the '60's, went to college in the 70's, I have seen it all. These people need to move on in their grief. I don't know how they could have expected the cruise line to have prevented this.

The father saying because the cruise passengers aren't driving they should be safe on a cruise ship drinking as much as they want? Come on! You can get blasted, walk out of a bar and walk into the street and be killed by a car. Is it the poor sober drivers fault because you walked in front of a moving vehicle drunk?

I have much empathy for this family as over 30 years ago something like this (not related to a cruise ship) happened in my family. There was a death. There was no lawsuit. Sometimes it isn't someone else's fault. We moved on and kept the memory alive.

The result of this case and the Smith's has been for RCCL to treat the rest of their passengers like children regarding alcohol. I feel bad for these terrible, tragic accidents, but come on... how many young people die on land because of alcohol related incidents? Many more per capita than on cruise ships. This is just human behavior. What happens on land will happen on cruise ships. No new rules/laws will change that.[/QUOTE] I think I read where the family of the young man who fell off the Mariner were originally not going to sue after they viewed the video tape of their son going overboard and the tape of he and friends drinking the smuggled booze. However, they have become active in the International Cruise Victims Association (started by the Smiths and others) and may have changed their mind due to this type of influence.

[ShedQueen77]

[quote name='sweet angel']My guess would be that as the dogs salivate because they know food is near, so should people realize that if OTHERS were killed/lost at sea by going overboard, they probably will be as well.[/quote]

[quote name='sweet angel']:confused: Huh? What did I say that was funny? :confused:[/quote]

For some reason, your response to my Pavlov question gave me a mental picture of drooling dogs going overboard a ship. Brain lapse, and I forgot to elaborate before hitting submit. It was too late to edit by the time I re-read my post since it was just now. I should stop posting on my study breaks when my brain is usually occupied elsewhere! :D I'm sorry! :)

[scejas]

FBI formally opens investigation into missing man:

[URL="http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI52263/"]http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI52263/[/URL]

[Emi's Mom]

[quote name='scejas']FBI formally opens investigation into missing man:

[URL="http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI52263/"]http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI52263/[/URL][/QUOTE]
[COLOR="Blue"][B]
What's your take on it scejas? Have you formed an opinion about what you think happened?[/B][/COLOR]

[scejas]

[quote=Emi's Mom;10561512][COLOR=Blue][B]
What's your take on it scejas? Have you formed an opinion about what you think happened?[/B][/COLOR][/quote]

I really don't have any other evidence than what i have posted -- I have yet to hear about any sign of foul play...

Sadly i don't know what happened to the kid ...

[Emi's Mom]

[quote name='scejas']I really don't have any other evidence than what i have posted -- I have yet to hear about any sign of foul play...

Sadly i don't know what happened to the kid ...[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Magenta"][B]I guess that all that any of us know so far is that it is a horrible occurance. It will be interesting to find out the details when all of this is said and done.[/B][/COLOR]

[rcicruiser]

[quote name='SherriZ366']I think I read where the family of the young man who fell off the Mariner were originally not going to sue after they viewed the video tape of their son going overboard and the tape of he and friends drinking the smuggled booze. However, they have become active in the International Cruise Victims Association (started by the Smiths and others) and may have changed their mind due to this type of influence.[/QUOTE]

You are right, they knew what their son had been doing, but like the Smith they have to blame everyone else except for their son. They have to get over it.

[rcicruiser]

A man just died on the NCL Majesty in Bermuda. He was drinking on shore came back to the ship, he then tried to slide down a stairwall bannister. Who is to blame for that? Cruiseline or the man.

[Emi's Mom]

[quote name='rcicruiser']A man just died on the NCL Majesty in Bermuda. He was drinking on shore came back to the ship, he then tried to slide down a stairwall bannister. Who is to blame for that? Cruiseline or the man.[/QUOTE]


[COLOR="Magenta"]I just saw about that on another thread. Those guys gotta stop drinking so :( much[/COLOR]

[Catnip]

[quote=Emi's Mom;10562147][COLOR=Magenta]I just saw about that on another thread. Those guys gotta stop drinking so :( much[/COLOR][/quote]

IMHO, it's a person's choice to drink responsibly, or get blasted. But, if they get injured or killed after they made their choice, it's nobody's fault but their own. Period.

[yosh12]

[quote name='RAJay']Hey Critics,

My wife and I are on the Freedom of the Seas right now... actually on our Honeymoon. We were playing Bingo on Deck 5 around 10 am and they paged this guy like 50 times... It seemed like every 4-5 minutes. Around noon (or so) the captain announced that there was a man missing and that the ship had turned around to return to the point where the ship was when the man was last seen. They had his name and pictured plastered on every TV screen on the ship, and constantly (still) on channel 10 of RCTV. Everyone on the ship was talking about what to do and different scenarios etc... Orginally they cancelled San Juan and said we were going to St. Maarten & Thomas. But later when the ship finally stopped retracing its path and continued on the voyage they said we were cancelling St. Thomas and going to San Juan first. Talk on the ship was that we were going to San Juan because it is a U.S controlled territory so they would have control over everyone as they left the ship for port. At port the Coast Guard boarded the ship and escorted us to the pier, then FBI (about 20 people) boarded the ship. They had an evidence response team and dog etc... It's a crazy thing to be witness to.

Luckily everyone on board has been pretty understanding and we hope this guy is found safe.

At 50 cents a minute I think this post has been worth it... but I probably won't be on again till I get back from the cruise.

Crazy First Cruise!!!! Crazy Honeymoon Cruise!!!!

-Jason & his now wife, Megan

P.S. They gave everyone onboard a $200 ship credit.[/quote]

So just right off the bat, 4000 people's vacations have been altered, the cruise line is easily out over half a million dollars just in onboard credit to everyone, and that doesn't even take into the account the expense of the searches.

And some think it's rude or wrong to hold the family or the passenger (if found), responsible for expenses? This nonsense has to stop. It is NOT the cruiselines fault and I think every lawsuit and that "victim's assoc" should be done away with. They're greiving and looking for someone to blame, so they go for those with the biggest pockets, as if that's going to bring their loved one back. It's so much easier to say "Royal Caribbean killed George on his honeymoon" than it is to say "George was plastered all week, his new wife was up to something all week, he met up with some really shady characters, and his own stupidity led to his death". Isn't it??

Don't get me wrong, I can't even imagine the pain these families go through, and I think these frivious lawsuits are just an extension of that pain. I wish none of them had to go through this! BUT, place the "blame" (since that's what they are all looking for), where it belongs. THEY start this...not the public, not the cruise lines...

And unfortunately, most (not all) of these druken type scenarios involve 20-somethings. So yes, I do think age plays a part.

This is sad enough, but what makes it more sad is the victim could have easily prevented it most of the time.

[WMG/LMG]

If he is dumb and stupid who cares what happens? i feel sorry for the other passengers who will miss a stop in St. Thomas because of this idiot.

[SherriZ366]

[quote name='yosh12']So just right off the bat, 4000 people's vacations have been altered, the cruise line is easily out over half a million dollars just in onboard credit to everyone, and that doesn't even take into the account the expense of the searches.

And some think it's rude or wrong to hold the family or the passenger (if found), responsible for expenses? This nonsense has to stop. It is NOT the cruiselines fault and I think every lawsuit and that "victim's assoc" should be done away with. They're greiving and looking for someone to blame, so they go for those with the biggest pockets, as if that's going to bring their loved one back. It's so much easier to say "Royal Caribbean killed George on his honeymoon" than it is to say "George was plastered all week, his new wife was up to something all week, he met up with some really shady characters, and his own stupidity led to his death". Isn't it??

Don't get me wrong, I can't even imagine the pain these families go through, and I think these frivious lawsuits are just an extension of that pain. I wish none of them had to go through this! BUT, place the "blame" (since that's what they are all looking for), where it belongs. THEY start this...not the public, not the cruise lines...

And unfortunately, most (not all) of these druken type scenarios involve 20-somethings. So yes, I do think age plays a part.

This is sad enough, but what makes it more sad is the victim could have easily prevented it most of the time.[/QUOTE]

I bet the family will still sue. And if International Cruise Victims Association gets involved, they will pressure the family to sue even if their first inclination is not to take legal action.

[36kruzes]

[quote name='Clarkk W Griswald']I still can't figure out how one can "fall overboard". Railings are high enough that you just can't "fall" over.[/quote]


I agree -- this talk of "falling" is foolish. Unless the unfortunates are all 9 feet tall and railings hit them below the knees -- they're not just tripping and falling. Far too much over-imbibing going on if you ask me. Or some of these people may just want to end it all and this is certainly a dramatic attention-getter, like jumping off the Golden Gate bridge.

Any death of this type is sad, of course, but getting so much more prevalent in recent years as cruising has gained in popularity and ships attract all ages, not just the middle-aged and older crowds. Nearly all of the "falls" we hear about these days occur in those under age 30.

[36kruzes]

[quote name='scejas']FBI formally opens investigation into missing man:

[URL]http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI52263/[/URL][/quote]


What a huge waste of the FBI's time and resources.