A plea from one of your younger cruisers

Well Cashew14, your post takes the (Christmas) cake!

 

So let me get this straight. Despite personal and first references about Emily and her family, you don't get her message, much less accept it. That's fine, of course. Each to his own. And then there are your own views...

 

Anyway, I will be on the upcoming 40 day cruise on Sojourn. And soon you too will partake of your first Seabourn cruise. So you will be learning something about Seabourn and its regular passengers too, I trust.

 

Maybe we can get together and you can tell me more about how children and young adults should behave, with whom they should travel, whether this particular 14 year old should have access to this cruisecritic board and where your views on "mental capacity" are getting you, pedagogically or otherwise? And I will repeat and elaborate on my views on rudeness and add some insights about gracious behavior, self-doubt and humility- to demonstrate that I will be prepared for our our tete a tete too.

 

Happy sailing!

Merry Christmas.

I don't have a problem with children on board. The problem are parents putting their children in this situation. If they decide to take a child on board of Seabourn, I think they should prepare their child and themselves for possible bad comments.

Is it right that children get verbally abused on board? Of course not. What I am saying is, it is not hard to predict behaviour of some people towards children on board of this particular cruise line. And some of the people who do not wish to see children on Seabourn have voiced this very clearly on here. It can't come as a surprise, surely.

Your post is brilliant, Emily. Take no notice of any negative comments whether on board ship or on this board. You are an intelligent, eloquent young lady and I am sure your parents are very proud of you. Keep sailing and let us know where you go and what you see!

Margaret

The problem are parents putting their children in this situation.

 

Is it right that children get verbally abused on board? Of course not. What I am saying is, it is not hard to predict behaviour of some people towards children on board of this particular cruise line. And some of the people who do not wish to see children on Seabourn have voiced this very clearly on here. It can't come as a surprise, surely.

What if the child actively chose the cruise as mine did? In fact it was at their insistence that we tried Seabourn.

I wonder if the same person who made the snide comments to Emily would be game enough to make similar derogatory comments within the hearing of another passenger to whom they had taken a dislike. I suspect not, because they would expect the other passenger to possibly voice their own offense. Effectively the rude person was a bully (abuse by a person in a position of power via their age). I also wonder if that same person was on ewho does not say please and thank you to the staff.

In posting here, Emily has very effectively responded to the person's behaviour without name and shame (surely a mature way to approach a situation) and to also let other cruisers know that such behaviour is offensive and should not be accepted or tolerated. Emily is changing the world through the power of social media, as young people do.

There are a number of posts on CC that have reinforced having older children aboard.

Quotes from fellow pax on our cruises:

"Breath of fresh air"

"Reminds me of all the things that I used to be able to do"

"Nice to hear a young take on our world when i have become old and cynical"

Because some post a negative on here does NOT make it acceptable for people to be downright rude or necessitate that Emily and her peers should just sit back and accept it.

What if the child actively chose the cruise as mine did? In fact it was at their insistence that we tried Seabourn.

 

With respect, yours were not really children but young adults who added to the overall experience by their enthusiasm, energy and knowledge.

There is a tendency to lump all children together and then to generalise about them. But there is a huge difference between, for example, an under 5 and an over 12.

No doubt the person making derogatory remarks about Emily was an over-70 with the usual sense of entitlement that age group shows and possibly showing signs of senile decline. We can, after all, all generalise :D

Charles,

Mine were slightly younger than Emily when they did their first cruise (albeit SS) :)

And yes I'm not a fan of the u12 group, especially if there is a group:eek:

This is Mrs Waldo's daughter posting from her account because cruise critic is yet to approve me.

To present the argument against children from another perspective:

So X is homosexual. His friends would like to go out and they invite him to come with them to a straight bar. Now X knows that sometimes people in those sorts of bars can be homophobic and make really horrible comments, especially when drunk. He goes anyway because he doesn’t want to miss out on a night with his friends. When a group of people start making nasty comments and harassing X whose fault is it? Is it X’s fault because he went to the bar knowing that is was a possibility? Is it his friends’ fault for putting him in that situation?

Of course not, it is the intolerant individuals who have ruined his night by making hurtful comments before actually getting to know him.

Conversely this could be a straight person in a gay bar, an African American prior to the civil rights movement etc. All these people have as much a choice over their offending feature as Emily has over her age.

Now, as much as I wish Mrs Waldo wouldn’t bring me into this as much she has, I feel I need to mention; My first experience of luxury small ship cruising was when I was eleven. At the time I was really into history and wanted to be an archaeologist when I grew up. I thoroughly enjoyed attending the lectures on Viking history, having dinnertime conversations with adults, trivia and all that cruising has to offer (minus the alcohol of course). Often people would make comments, usually rude ones, about the presence of children on board when I was in earshot. Seriously? If you are going to whinge, grizzle and complain keep it within your own group and only ruin your holiday. My brother and I were far less boisterous and outgoing then than we are now, but we still had a wonderful time. We now return as adults knowing what to expect and having been trained in appropriate conduct aboard cruise ships, whether or not we choose to use this training is up to us (or how much alcohol we have consumed ;) )

How can you expect well mannered, polite and intelligent individuals to step aboard a Seabourn cruise ship if their only idea of cruising is Disney? How can you expect adults to want to go cruising if they view it as an overcrowded experience where everywhere you go has an extra five thousand people just from your cruise ship? Whilst this appeals to some it does not appeal to everyone and age should be no boundary as to what you can enjoy.

I wish Cruise Critic had a "Like" button.

Emily and Miss Waldo have both written intelligent, mature posts and to the point.

We had 15 or so teenagers on part of our Med cruise on Sojourn in June this year. As it was a port intensive cruise the Card Room was set aside for them to use as a meeting place.

They were very well behaved (better than some of the "adult" pax) and a delight to have onboard.

I can only hope that one day I will be fortunate to cruise on Seabourn with young adults similar to Emily and Miss Waldo

I wish Cruise Critic had a "Like" button.

Emily and Miss Waldo have both written intelligent, mature posts and to the point.

We had 15 or so teenagers on part of our Med cruise on Sojourn in June this year. As it was a port intensive cruise the Card Room was set aside for them to use as a meeting place.

They were very well behaved (better than some of the "adult" pax) and a delight to have onboard.

I can only hope that one day I will be fortunate to cruise on Seabourn with young adults similar to Emily and Miss Waldo

+1

It is just a fact, that the odds are that one will encounter at some stage ill mannered children parented by parents who do not have the will or knowledge on how to parent. It is also a fact that they pay the money whether it's buisness class flight or luxury cruise. I blame the parents, not the children.

We have had fantastic holidays with our 14 yr old GKids. From what I see here, MrsW and Emily's parents enjoy a similar relationship. It is a pleasure to read this. Unfortunately, there is sometimes a thorn amongst the roses, and sometimes the thorn is the grouch in the card room.

Dear Emily,

This is texanaust’s 14-year old daughter Dana. Like you, I have travelled on a number of cruises (I was twelve months old on my first Seabourn) and know the prejudices younger passengers sometimes face. Over the years I received a number of comments from paedophobic passengers such as, ‘Disney is for children not Seabourn—tell your parents they’re torturing you’. Then there are the dirty looks and stares I elicit during boarding. Being upset over an ill-behaved toddler ruining a trip is perfectly logical, but any child who conducts themselves in a reasonable manner should be accepted warmly.

To be fair, not all passengers are like that, and some are very welcoming to children. Even if passengers act coolly towards me the beginning of a cruise, often they warm by the end. One of the most amusing incidents was on the Crystal Symphony this past May. I joined the Bridge class and ended up sitting with two professed child-haters (ironically a paediatrician and a retired elementary-school principal). They were very clear about their dislike of me (the third member actually moved to another table), but by the end of the cruise they took a liking to me. When on the last day they were making some snide remarks about children misbehaving, I said that I would never do such a thing. The principal looked at me and said, ‘Of course not, dear, we love you.’

Then again some people never get over the idea of children on their vacation, no matter how well-behaved they are. Not all children are pests, and, like you, I wish people could understand that and be open-minded. ;)

I hope to meet you on a future cruise.

Sincerely,

Dana

I'm sorry but I do not accept the analogy of children on Seabourn to homophobia or racism. Gay people and Black people did not choose their sexuality or color of their skin while oblivious parents of unruly children deliberately choose not to discipline and rein them in. It's never the children. It's always the parents who are more concerned with their own needs than those of their children. Otherwise they would never bring them on SB. And I'm talking about children here, not 14 year olds who are young adults.

not 14 year olds who are young adults.

Clearly quite a few people consider 14 (or those that are of similar age or at least appear to be) to be children.

Not reining in undisciplined children is a whole new thing...

I think Seabourn might do everyone a favour by declaring a minimum age for sailing on their ships.

 

I don't have a problem with children on board. But others on Seabourn do which is obvious reading several posts regarding this subject on this board. If my children were little I would not dream bringing them on board and being exposed to the "anti children" behaviour on board. Also I believe a 14 year old should hang out with their age group, not adults at all times.

 

Whether they are "mature" or not is not really the issue. We all think our children and grandchildren are the "best, most intelligent, gifted etc". It does not mean others have to think that way.

 

Sorry this 14 year old had to encounter some negative experiences but really anyone could see this coming especially since the OP is a member on cruise critic.

 

If she had written this post, then I assume she has the mental capacity to deal with these issues. If not, then she is not as mature as she or her parents believe. Therefore it was and is the wrong decision to take this child on this particular cruise line but maybe it is time to take her on a more child friendly ship.

Wow! This response boggles the mind. I thought this attitude went out with the Ewardians.

Marilyn

Mnwever,

I don't know if the Edwardians are to be blamed for cornering the market on fusspots. Some of their literature was succinct, thoughtful and meaningful, unlike some of the ramblings that appear on this thread displaying prejudice against young people.

You see, whenever those who "know better" use the word "should" repeatedly (as in should behave, should travel, should access to cruisecritic...) in their pronouncements, despite the fact that they have no first hand knowledge of the circumstances, you might as well hold onto your seat for some disappointment. And then there is the inevitable back-tracking and fumbling marked often by the use of the phrase "of course". Writers who know better make the effort to get it right first time. They are also resourceful, thoughful and deliver perspective and balance. Emily is such a fine example.

No, the fusspots are not relegated to the Edwardian era, I am sorry to report.

Happy sailing!

Clearly quite a few people consider 14 (or those that are of similar age or at least appear to be) to be chidren.

Including the United Nations, where the definition is under 18= child, unless the age of majority of the 'child's' state is lower.

How interesting.

But then I was wondering... Do we really need to involve a UN commission for a case where a 14 year old female was spoken to rudely by a fusspot (my choice of descriptor, not hers) when she was merely retrieving a boxed board game from the Seabourn Sojourn cardroom on a Christmas cruise?

No, I didn't think so either.

And by the way, we can discuss further and at your pleasure if everyone above the age of 18 is an adult. Might as well define our terms, right?

Happy sailing!

Earth to Cashew14:

Age does not always equal maturity or behavior. I have been exposed to numerous 20-30 year old "adults" who act like children.

Let us not forget Jerry Lee Lewis who married his thirteen year old cousin in 1958

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And if SB had been around then he might have brought her aboard on their honeymoon and she could have participated in the kids club in the card room!

Since this is at present the only thread about the Sojourn Christmas cruise - which we nearly booked as it sounds such a good itinerary - it would be nice to read either here or on a new thread from Mr. L, Midshipman H or someone else, how the cruise is going generally; ports of call, service and staff, food and wine, weather, and perhaps how many children are in fact on board, and if they are generally well behaved.

You and me both

I am now looking at next year in Vietnam etc

OH an FWIW Miss W is on her way to Dubai and scored and upgrade…. msg from phone,,,, mum the whole cabin is kids… Kudos to emirates for zoning kids but obviously 20 yo (OMG where did my baby go) fitted into the kid zone

Since this is at present the only thread about the Sojourn Christmas cruise - which we nearly booked as it sounds such a good itinerary - it would be nice to read either here or on a new thread from Mr. L, Midshipman H or someone else, how the cruise is going generally; ports of call, service and staff, food and wine, weather, and perhaps how many children are in fact on board, and if they are generally well behaved.

Food is great, the best I've had on Seabourn. Wine is the usual standard, ie I'm able to find a couple of reasonable choices for lunch, I'm buying off the list for dinner wines. they've got some South African wines onboard offering more variety than usual.

Ports of call. - the ports themselves have been quite poor. On rhis itinerary it's important to plan ahead and get away from the ports. We're currently in Maputo, Mozambique.

Weather was perfect before we left Cape Town. Temps In the mid to high 20's, sunny and low humidity. During the cruise it's been quite windy and cloudy. Very warm and humid.

Service overall has been excellent although we've talked to other guests who have found the drinks service at lunchtime at the outside area of The Colonnade - both wine and water - to be poor

The following is my view and also the view of the two people I'm travelling with. I'm donning my flame retardent suit. There are too many kids onboard. The majority are over 12 and aren't a problem. However there is a toddler, referred to previously in this thread, and a few other young kids. We're finding the pool to be unusable because of shouting, screaming, splashing etc. Not blaming the kids - they're bored. We've overheard one set of parents whining that "the kids have nothing to do". Parents doing a little more research prior to booking young kids on SB would help !! The ships are too small and too adult oriented for young kids.

Good mix of nationalities amongst the guests and I've met lots of lovely, interesting people.

Sorry for typo and grammar, am using ipad .

Thanks for the report, Nigella. Sorry to hear that the ports are not very exciting, but imagine that if you do your homework prior to the cruise you can find things away from the actual ports which are interesting, as you say. I did read that there were 20 children on board, and wonder if the people in the card room who were unpleasant to the OP were perhaps just reacting to the fact there are too many, and some disruptive, ones on board. I believe sometimes the card room is taken over for children's activities; if this is the case it could account for the bridge players' hostility.

We tend to avoid high summer when children are on holiday, and I guess Christmas is also not a good time to cruise if you wish to avoid too many children. It is a shame, though.

Thanks for the report, Nigella. Sorry to hear that the ports are not very exciting, but imagine that if you do your homework prior to the cruise you can find things away from the actual ports which are interesting, as you say. I did read that there were 20 children on board, and wonder if the people in the card room who were unpleasant to the OP were perhaps just reacting to the fact there are too many, and some disruptive, ones on board. I believe sometimes the card room is taken over for children's activities; if this is the case it could account for the bridge players' hostility.

 

We tend to avoid high summer when children are on holiday, and I guess Christmas is also not a good time to cruise if you wish to avoid too many children. It is a shame, though.

Yes that's right, the fabulous wildlife experiences away from the ports certainly are worth it. I'd definitely advise lots of research prior to taking a similar itinerary.

I don't know the exact number of children onboard, but I'd say 20 is about right. The huge majority are very well behaved at meal times, and I don't want to give the impression that they're running amok round the ship, they're not. It's just the pool that's problematic. But of course coming from a European winter, time spent around the pool is of high value to me at this time of year. :)

Incidentally, we've now taken several Christmas cruises on SS and SB and haven't encountered anything close to this amount of children onboard previously.

I think there are seventeen under eighteens on board.

I have not experienced any problems regarding noisy children and the two year old has not been bad at all.

In fact only this morning my wife and I had breakfast as we always do in the dining room and there was a South African family mum,dad and three small boys.

When they were about to leave we stopped the mother and commended her on how well behaved and quiet her boys were.

She thanked us for our nice comment and we talked about how the cruise was going for them.

Ports not great as Nigella says,Richards Bay possibly the worst berth that I have been to on a ship.

Food good but some service a bit slow if you want to get to the show in the evening.

Handre the cruise director has been absolutely first class.

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The following is my view and also the view of the two people I'm travelling with. I'm donning my flame retardent suit. There are too many kids onboard. The majority are over 12 and aren't a problem. However there is a toddler, referred to previously in this thread, and a few other young kids. We're finding the pool to be unusable because of shouting, screaming, splashing etc. Not blaming the kids - they're bored. We've overheard one set of parents whining that "the kids have nothing to do". Parents doing a little more research prior to booking young kids on SB would help !! The ships are too small and too adult oriented for young kids.

 

.

No retardant required here. I agree totally. You can only hope that the fact the kids have nothing to do will get around.

And yes the problem is usually that parents don't quite get that the pool is not really a play area, lots of people like to laze around, soak up the sun and read.