Ukrainian Unrest - Black Sea Cruise April 25, 2014

[duct tape]

Batumi is a pit. Be careful.

[wripro]

I don't see why anyone would take a chance with Black Sea cruise now. The odds are that all the ports which are the reason for taking this cruise will be eliminated and or substituted. An extra say in Constantia? Please! One day there us too much.

[rojo2012]

Azamara announced on their website yesterday,that they have changed their 3 ports in the Ukraine on the 12 June voyage on Quest.

Their substitutions are, overnight on Istanbul (scenic Bosphorus cruising),Bartin (Amazra/Safranbolu) Turkey, Volos (Meteora) Greece, and Nafplion( Mycenae) Greece.

Disappointing to see Silversea leaving passengers in Limbo!

[Marylebone37]

Constanta is also a pit. I can't imagine spending an overnight there. Do NOT leave the ship in the evening. Rarely do I feel like a target for thieves, but this one place that I felt truly unsafe. This was also the general feeling of most passengers on the Seabourn cruise I took. Be careful!

[bohaiboy]

I still think SS is waiting to close the 100% clause in the passage contract to make determinations. From 30-0 days before the cruise, one would lose 100% of their payments. That date is Monday or Tuesday next week. If SS pulls that one over on people so they are covered 100% even if someone has a cancel for any reason insurance policy, I for one will never book with them again.

 

We are on the Wind April 25, Istanbul-Istanbul. I also have read horrible things about Batumi and Constanta. The only additional possible stops in the Black Sea are Sinop and Bartin or additional nights at other ports. Hopefully they will sail to the west coast of Turkey as we will probably miss four ports, Sochi, Yalta, Sevastopol, and Odessa. Bet we add additional sea days as well. SS better be ready to give some refunds as cruises with many sea days are cheaper than port intensive cruises.

[NJ Cruiserman]

Constanta is also a pit. I can't imagine spending an overnight there. Do NOT leave the ship in the evening. Rarely do I feel like a target for thieves, but this one place that I felt truly unsafe. This was also the general feeling of most passengers on the Seabourn cruise I took. Be careful!

One of the passengers on our cruise had her camera stolen, and my wife and I had to be extremely careful to avoid people getting too close to us.

[jpalbny]

One of the passengers on our cruise had her camera stolen, and my wife and I had to be extremely careful to avoid people getting too close to us.

 

Hi Mark, that's the cruise we were on together, right? We actually had fun in Constanta, but definitely not a place we'd need an overnight (or another visit) in. We did wander off by ourselves, and actually braved the walk back to the ship. Certainly more than the usual share of shady characters to be seen...

 

I think that someone even got pickpocketed while on our tour group - right outside of the Ethnographic museum while waiting to enter. It's a tough place, and certainly not a fair substitute for Yalta or Odessa.

[bogey]

I still think SS is waiting to close the 100% clause in the passage contract to make determinations. From 30-0 days before the cruise, one would lose 100% of their payments. That date is Monday or Tuesday next week. If SS pulls that one over on people so they are covered 100% even if someone has a cancel for any reason insurance policy, I for one will never book with them again.

 

Bohaiboy -- Silversea certainly realizes by now that they must do something about your itinerary. Ten days or so ago, things were uncertain enough that maintaining some flexibility was reasonable. The uncertainty is essentially gone at this point. And, they are already inside the 75% forfeiture window. That should be a big disincentive for folks to cancel. Obtaining 75% of the fare while providing no service would seem to be exceptionally reasonable compensation for any cancellations they do have. (And, as we've read, there are strongly held views that, in Britain, the consumer wouldn't have to pay those forfeitures.)

 

In summary, I agree with your position. If Silversea announces its intentions just inside the total forfeiture deadline, I may be forced to find a different favorite cruise line. (I had a similar issue with Oceania several years ago when they announced a major itinerary change just inside the forfeiture deadline. I have not been back to Oceania.)

 

While I have some sympathy with businesses which find themselves in difficult situations through no fault of their own, that sympathy dissipates rapidly when the business stops operating in good faith. The longer we get nothing but silence from Silversea, the more it appears that they are not exercising good faith in dealing with their customers. The fact that other lines are being transparent about their plans makes Silversea's silence more difficult to accept.

 

I really hope that things settle down over there and your cruise can go as planned. I will happily eat my words and applaud Silversea's calm, reasoned approach if that comes to pass.

[badgerdee]

Constanta is also a pit. I can't imagine spending an overnight there. Do NOT leave the ship in the evening. Rarely do I feel like a target for thieves, but this one place that I felt truly unsafe. This was also the general feeling of most passengers on the Seabourn cruise I took. Be careful!

 

Copy that.

 

We were on a Silversea Black Sea cruise in 2012 and, whilst the itinerary overall was excellent, Constanta was truly dreadful. I felt very unsafe, even mid-morning, and would recommend others take organised tours only.

 

A fellow passenger suffered an attempted mugging in the town centre by thugs masking as police and was only "saved" when the real police turned up.

 

I feel for those booked on Black Sea cruises this year, whilst feeling grateful we visited when we did.

[mrlevin]

Yes, you are choosing the wrong clause for some reason I cannot understand. Very odd.:confused:

 

People make cruise choices often very largely for the ports that are beng visited. Sometimes cruise lines have to or wish to change ports. There is nothing wrong with that. The clauses that are unfair are clauses that entitle the line to make any changes to the cruise chosen that they wish to at any time but then to disallow cancelations. This clause in the UK would likely be deemed unfair for the same reason as if you had gone into a shop to buy a beige leather sofa and for reasons outside of their control - say the factory burned down - and they subsidised a cloth red one and forced you to accept a substitution. It is exactly the same principle. A substantial change for whatever reason must entitle the customer the option of penalty free reconsideration.

 

In the UK it goes even further. If the change had been made for say purely commercial reasons rather than reasons outside of the lines control then the customer might be entitled to additional compensation for inconvenience and disappointment and any incremental cost of booking a comparable alternative cruise elsewhere. This type of law encourages corporations to behave more fairly to their customers. Forcing customers to have to accept a product choice that has changed substantially since the choice was originally made seems obviously unfair to me and invoking cancellation penalties therefore also unfair.

 

I hope that helps you to understand which clauses are unfair in UK and some other places.

 

:)

 

In the US of A, no one is holding a gun to our head when we sign a contract. As in UK (I believe it is true in UK but have not signed a contract there), all the terms are disclosed in a timely manner so that we can back out without penalty. I have no pity for anyone that does not read terms of an agreement and then cherry picks terms to complain about at a later date.

 

As to timing of Silversea's announcement on changing of Black Sea itinerary, do you bohaiboy really think guests would incur a 75% penalty that is clearly not covered by most insurance policies) but would not incur a 100& penalty? Yes, Silversea is letting this go too long; I just don't think it is being done to screw the passengers.

 

As for Constanta; take the day trip to Bucharest instead.

 

I am following this thread closely to see how Silversea acts as I may in same boat as those complaining here with Silver Explorer 7418 this summer; not all itinerary changes/updates are created equal.

 

Marc

Edited March 22, 2014 by Marq

[UKCruiseJeff]

In the US of A, no one is holding a gun to our head when we sign a contract. As in UK (I believe it is true in UK but have not signed a contract there), all the terms are disclosed in a timely manner so that we can back out without penalty. I have no pity for anyone that does not read terms of an agreement and then cherry picks terms to complain about at a later date.

 

Marc

 

Understandably, you have not fully considered the wider picture.

 

Nobody has held a gun to the head of any Silversea customer when they buy a cruise. However our laws were designed to cover ALL unfair contract terms in ALL consumer contracts. Some consumer contracts are industry generic and all include similar unfair terms. Air travel is a good example. Dislike one contract and you effectively cannot travel on any line anywhere because terms are generic. All contracts that include consequential loss exclusions. That is unfair. Corporations should be fully responsible for their negligence and it's repercussions. This means consumers are not barred from any choice.

 

We also take the view that consumers should not have to become legal experts and be expected to predict and work out every potential unexpected repercussion and their potential consequences of every tightly written clause for everything they buy. If they are "fair" then who loses? The laws have several flavours across several industries. For example insurance companies cannot deny claims unfairly irrespective of what the policy might unfairly exclude in the small print. Financial advisors are responsible for poor advice.

 

I'm certain I won't be able to convince you but I assure you this law has moderated poor corporate integrity and isn't abused, because in the end it will be an experienced and highly qualified judge who decides what is fair, but of course, claims never get to court as common sense normally prevails. I still cannot see how any sensible person thinks it fair that Silversea can make any change it feels like to the cruise, not inform any customers until after they are locked into a 100% commitment, and simply take the view that you do that it is fair because the contract allows it. Silversea could if they wanted to shorten a 14 night cruise to 1 night and under your argument that would be fair because the contract allows it. Legalising the ability for corporations to routinely cheat their customers under the legal protection of an unfair contract isn't good for anyone other than poor corporations. That environment is bad for EVERY consumer.

 

I am pleased we have a simple law that says all unfair consumer contract terms are unenforceable.

 

:)

Edited March 22, 2014 by UKCruiseJeff
ipad spelling .....

[GatorGal]

Marc, I was very disappointed our April 25 cruise on the Black Sea does not include a day trip to Bucharest. Perhaps now that will change. I have been very upbeat and positive about the situation and understanding of Silversea's position in likely scrambling to change ports and excursions. However, even i am now quite annoyed at the lack of communications, at just about a month away from boarding the Silver Wind. Hey, SS: Tell us what you know now, and then keep telling us as you know more. Those re the basic principles of crisis communications, and SS is failing miserably.

[mrlevin]

I concur that they are failing badly at public relations; that is why I am following this thread. When I contacted Silversea regarding any potential changes to 7418, they just said they would make any decisions on altered itinerary "before we board." In your case, they appear to be stretching it out farther than they have to. Of course, they may also be in a bind. They also are insured. Maybe they are waiting for US government to ban travel to Crimea wherein they could collect insurance on all the refunds they would have to give; but, on the other hand, if they changed the itinerary now and gave passengers the option for a full refund, they would have to eat the loss.

 

Marc

[Herman The Cat]

Just out of curiousity, I assume all of you have contacted Silversea directly to discuss this with them? Frankly, I don't think they are trying to pull a fast one by making the decision after the date. There is obviously financial risk as well as safety and reputational risk. People on these boards seem to always think they are trying to pull a fast one or they are flip in their decision making and I think they deserve more credit than that. They are probably scrambling to make a decision/changes, and won't communicate until they have something definitive to communicate. Are there other cruise lines in the Black Sea at the same time, as April seems a bit early? What have those cruise lines done? I saw the comments about cruises in June changing itineraries, but obviously that is a few months off so a bit easier.

[GatorGal]

Yes, I have personally contacted Silversea, as has my agent. Same response. No change to the itinerary at this time.

[UKCruiseJeff]

A sensible organisation would understand the anxiety and questions customers will have and would pro-actively have written to cruise customers potentially effected and reassure them with what the current situation is even if it is only to say that no final decisions have been made, and when the final date of decisions are likely to be, and with the clear promise to keep customers in touch as soon as there is any news or decisions. Perhaps with a special direct telephone number to call with questions. SS cruises aren't cheap.

 

That would stop many customers from needlessly fretting in the absence of any information would be inexpensive, possibly free. It would save some cancellations and enhance customer satisfaction and trust and loyalty.

 

Is there anyone in SS management with an ounce of common sense? You really wonder about the quality of people there.

 

:confused:

[dusababy]

A sensible organisation would understand the anxiety and questions customers will have and would pro-actively have written to cruise customers potentially effected and reassure them with what the current situation is even if it is only to say that no final decisions have been made, and when the final date of decisions are likely to be, and with the clear promise to keep customers in touch as soon as there is any news or decisions. Perhaps with a special direct telephone number to call with questions. SS cruises aren't cheap.

 

That would stop many customers from needlessly fretting in the absence of any information would be inexpensive, possibly free. It would save some cancellations and enhance customer satisfaction and trust and loyalty.

 

Is there anyone in SS management with an ounce of common sense? You really wonder about the quality of people there.

 

:confused:

 

"effected" - is it a British thing? Just wondering......:p

[UKCruiseJeff]

"effected" - is it a British thing? Just wondering......:p

 

More an ipad, small stubby finger, small screen, auto correct thing. I can barely read this bleedin' screen.

 

:D

[bohaiboy]

The effects of this will affect many.

[rosepark]

went to a cruise exhibition/ show yesterday here in London specifically to see if we could get any comment from the Silversea people there about Black Sea itineraries. we were told that a decision would be made this week but the chap at the stand admitted they had been told that before and nothing had been forthcoming. We made the point, that whilst we were a few weeks away form having to make a final decision about whether or not to go, those on the April cruise were begin very poorly treated. He was aware of this and, rather ruefully, confirmed that a number of people had made the same point to him during the show.

Not much help for those of you in limbo at the moment but I thought it was worth making a bit of a fuss in person.

Interestingly, Seabourn were actively marketing a Black Sea cruise in early September calling at Yalta and Odessa, but not Sevastapol.

Rp

[apuleius]

We took the seabourn Black Sea cruise a couple of years ago and it did not have Sebastopol on its itinerary - we were a bit sorry but it was much cheaper than SS and it was a fab cruise. Constanta is the pits though.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

[tring]

Having read this thread, I would like to add to the earlier comments about UK law vs unfair contracts.

 

There is legislation that covers unfair contracts in the UK, and this area is covered by 'The Package Travel Regs', which allow consumer protection against 'Significant changes'. However, in this case, the situation is beyond the control of the cruise company so compensation would not be payable (e.g. for other costs like airport hotel or independant travel), but change should be notified and a refund should be offered before travel. The 'significance' of the change would basically be as decided by a court, but if there were only a couple of ports altered out of a longer cruise then the change is unlikely to be considered significant. A stab in the dark could be a change of (perhaps) more than 30% of ports, but uncertainty always applies and it is down to how the District Judge rules on the day. If someone chooses not to travel and make a claim for a refund then it would not be upheld as they would be deemed to have chosen not to have travelled.

 

The best hope is probably that the cruise company would treat it's passenger's fairly for PR purposes, (but this law would obviously affect their decision on that).

 

My observation over the years is that Amercan cruise lines seem quicker to pay compensation if something goes wrong on a cruise. I suspect that has much more to do with the fact that people from the UK, in general, are much less likely to take a case to court. This would be necessary under the package travel regs as they are civil law, rather than criminal law which would be enforcable by official bodies, (i.e. Trading Standards). 'Consumer Advice', which is under the control of Trading standards can help advise how to go about that though and our small claims courts are user friendly without the need to employ a solicitor, so costs are minimal.

 

Consumers in the UK are far from able to enter a contract blindly without running a risk of loss.

 

I would also find it very difficult to believe that the US does not have some sort of contract law. I do wonder about the way Amercans seem to be able to cancel a contract, (i.e. holiday booking), at will and without loss up to a certain date. It would seem unlikely that companies are offering that out of the goodness of their heart, although I could be totally wrong, I suppose it could be a marketing ploy.

 

Anyway good luck everyone, we have a Black Sea cruise booked for October, which is why I am searching the threads about it. We are hoping the situation will settle by then, but optimism does have it's limitations!!!!

[UKCruiseJeff]

Having read this thread, I would like to add to the earlier comments about UK law vs unfair contracts.

 

There is legislation that covers unfair contracts in the UK, and this area is covered by 'The Package Travel Regs', which allow consumer protection against 'Significant changes'. However, in this case, the situation is beyond the control of the cruise company so compensation would not be payable (e.g. for other costs like airport hotel or independant travel), but change should be notified and a refund should be offered before travel. The 'significance' of the change would basically be as decided by a court, but if there were only a couple of ports altered out of a longer cruise then the change is unlikely to be considered significant. A stab in the dark could be a change of (perhaps) more than 30% of ports, but uncertainty always applies and it is down to how the District Judge rules on the day. If someone chooses not to travel and make a claim for a refund then it would not be upheld as they would be deemed to have chosen not to have travelled.

 

The best hope is probably that the cruise company would treat it's passenger's fairly for PR purposes, (but this law would obviously affect their decision on that).

 

My observation over the years is that Amercan cruise lines seem quicker to pay compensation if something goes wrong on a cruise. I suspect that has much more to do with the fact that people from the UK, in general, are much less likely to take a case to court. This would be necessary under the package travel regs as they are civil law, rather than criminal law which would be enforcable by official bodies, (i.e. Trading Standards). 'Consumer Advice', which is under the control of Trading standards can help advise how to go about that though and our small claims courts are user friendly without the need to employ a solicitor, so costs are minimal.

 

Consumers in the UK are far from able to enter a contract blindly without running a risk of loss.

 

I would also find it very difficult to believe that the US does not have some sort of contract law. I do wonder about the way Amercans seem to be able to cancel a contract, (i.e. holiday booking), at will and without loss up to a certain date. It would seem unlikely that companies are offering that out of the goodness of their heart, although I could be totally wrong, I suppose it could be a marketing ploy.

 

Anyway good luck everyone, we have a Black Sea cruise booked for October, which is why I am searching the threads about it. We are hoping the situation will settle by then, but optimism does have it's limitations!!!!

 

You are incorrect.

 

The specific European Package Travel Regulation (PTR) was replaced and superseded by The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (UTCCRs) protect consumers against ALL unfair standard terms in contracts they make with traders.

[duct tape]

I see that Regent has started canceling Black Sea ports.

[tring]

UK CruiseJeff is wrong in saying, "The specific European Package Travel Regulation (PTR) was replaced and superseded by The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (UTCCRs) protect consumers against ALL unfair standard terms in contracts they make with traders."

 

 

These regulations are still in force and have to be as they implement an EU Directive. They give considerable protection to consumers who buy package travel. The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 cover all contracts, including package travel, and both sets of regulations need to be read together. This means that a tour operator cannot use a clause in his conditions to wriggle out of doing something that he is required to do by the Package Travel Regs.

 

A travel forum is not the place to get into legal argument and I appreciate that the original intention was a discussion with American citizens, but incorrect data can be read by other forum users who then rely on that information, thinking they have rights they do not have, as all cases are different.

 

In this instance the consumer may be protected, but if, after companies make their changes, anyone in the UK is unhappy about the situation the best thing they can do is contact the 'national consumer advice line' where advice on their particular situation can be obtained.

 

Obviously advice can only be obtained once changes are made and the companies may well offer the chance to cancel at that stage with full refund. What would not be paid is compensation, (i.e. other costs incurred which are not part of the package), if the changes are beyond the control of the company. I think you mentioned that earlier.