Out of control dog on the Amsterdam

[Windsailer]

http://www.cruiselaws.com/CruiseLaws/Lawsuits/Elizabeth_Ann_Arbelovsky_v_Holland_America_Line.pdf

 

Based on what i read in the Complaint, i don't think that HAL has anything to worry about. Yes, in a previous incarnation, I was a practicing attorney. And familiar with the ADA.

 

I am speculating, but I think that many passengers on the ship were afraid to complain because they didn't want to have an adversarial relationship with the Captain and staff on such a long cruise.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Windsailer

[TiogaCruiser]

I, too, have been on this cruise since September 21 and can tell you all of these complaints are accurate. Why did it take so long to complain? Of course you mean why did it take so long to post here because my husband did speak to the Hotel Director while we were in China when the woman was on a 13 hour tour with us without the dog. We have since been told by other passengers that she went on an overnight tour to Beijing. There have been so many complaints that on day 42 a blurb was included in the daily program explaining that a service dog had the right to be anywhere the passenger can be and that the dog can be any breed, including toy breeds. I found that insulting and filled out a let us know card telling them that passengers may not be so quick to question the dog's legitimacy if HAL required the dog to wear identifying jacket instead of costumes. I got no response. As for these Boards, I generally don't spend Internet minutes while on ship to look at Cruise Critic. Hawaii is the first that I'm back on cell service.

 

Wow. Obviously HAL doesn't see that there are responsibilities the handler carries. And if HAL required proper behavior from the dog and owner I think there would be a lot less of these types of issues. That type of response is disrespectful of other pax AND anyone who needs a true Service Dog.

 

My new dog is no service dog, nor do I forsee him even becoming a Therapy dog. There are lots of dog friendly restaurants nearby that welcome well behaved dogs. It sounds like he's way ahead of this little dog but still not where his behavior needs to be before we take him to a restaurant.

[Tante Amalie]

I am on the Amsterdam right now and can confirm the previous observations. The dog is a cute little thing (Cockapoo?) and hasn't been terribly disruptive, but the owner is awful. She takes the dog into the Lido regularly and the situation is very unhygienic. We had a Q&A session with the Captain and Hotel Manager who basically said their hands were tied. After the session, I watched one of the passengers give Henk (the hotel manager) a loud tongue lashing that was quite uncomfortable to see.

 

We were given stuffed bears 2 nights ago as pillow gifts. There is currently a woman walking around the ship with the bear attached to a wire "leash" to mock the dog lady. It's pretty funny.

 

It's obvious that the dog is not a service animal. If anything, it's a comfort dog and a sham of the intent of the ADA. I guess she's given us something to talk about and I find the situation pretty annoying. I think she has alienated everyone on the ship.

[bcummin]

How come it took you to the end of the cruise to complain!!!!!! Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

I was enjoying the first 31 days of the 78-day voyage without unnecessary confrontations. Once home, I wanted to try and help those who were still aboard.

 

Alsas, are you not still aboard ms Amsterdam right now? What have you witnessed with the dog woman? Have you complained?

Hopefully she has not caused unpleasantness for you on such a Grand Voyage.

 

Barbara

[Windsailer]

I am on the Amsterdam right now and can confirm the previous observations. The dog is a cute little thing (Cockapoo?) and hasn't been terribly disruptive, but the owner is awful. She takes the dog into the Lido regularly and the situation is very unhygienic. We had a Q&A session with the Captain and Hotel Manager who basically said their hands were tied. After the session, I watched one of the passengers give Henk (the hotel manager) a loud tongue lashing that was quite uncomfortable to see.

 

We were given stuffed bears 2 nights ago as pillow gifts. There is currently a woman walking around the ship with the bear attached to a wire "leash" to mock the dog lady. It's pretty funny.

 

It's obvious that the dog is not a service animal. If anything, it's a comfort dog and a sham of the intent of the ADA. I guess she's given us something to talk about and I find the situation pretty annoying. I think she has alienated everyone on the ship.

 

I just don't understand why their hands would be tied. If they think HAL Seattle has tied their hands, then, as a shareholder, it's time to take this up with CCL. As a result of this conduct HAL is going to lose customers - as a shareholder this is something I don't want to see.

[DrTee]

I'm wondering if any passengers have confronted the woman with her bad behavior?

 

I'm sorry for the passengers, but I feel bad for the dog too. Doesn't sound like it's being treated well.

 

I agree with Jacqui too--I love my cats, but I make sure they are cared for at home. They would hate cruising! And I kind of enjoy a break from them (don't tell).

[geocruiser]

Just asking, if the airline got the pig off the plane, why can't HAL get the dog off the ship?

 

Here is the link again

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/30/travel/emotional-support-pig-booted-flight/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[Shmoo here]

I am on the Amsterdam right now and can confirm the previous observations. The dog is a cute little thing (Cockapoo?) and hasn't been terribly disruptive, but the owner is awful. She takes the dog into the Lido regularly and the situation is very unhygienic. We had a Q&A session with the Captain and Hotel Manager who basically said their hands were tied. After the session, I watched one of the passengers give Henk (the hotel manager) a loud tongue lashing that was quite uncomfortable to see.

 

We were given stuffed bears 2 nights ago as pillow gifts. There is currently a woman walking around the ship with the bear attached to a wire "leash" to mock the dog lady. It's pretty funny.

 

It's obvious that the dog is not a service animal. If anything, it's a comfort dog and a sham of the intent of the ADA. I guess she's given us something to talk about and I find the situation pretty annoying. I think she has alienated everyone on the ship.

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but can't a Captain put anyone off the ship he deems a bad passenger?

 

If this were someone who, for example, was constantly damaging items on the ship, or causing other passengers much distress, I thought that the Captain could have them removed from the ship?

 

Maybe the issue with "having their hands tied" has to do with the fact that they can't put her ashore with the dog? Maybe the dog isn't cleared to actually get off the ship.

[durangoscots]

 

 

 

Maybe the issue with "having their hands tied" has to do with the fact that they can't put her ashore with the dog? Maybe the dog isn't cleared to actually get off the ship.

 

It probably isn't. And they missed their chance at Kodiak. I am hoping that this will set the stage for HAL and other lines to clearly state what expectations for a service animal are. Certainly passengers on board need to make their displeasure known to Seattle.

 

Susan

[Scrapnana]

I'm wondering if any passengers have confronted the woman with her bad behavior?

 

If someone did, this woman sounds like the kind who would complain to HAL that she was being harassed because she has a disability.

 

 

 

No doubt HAL is trying to tiptoe around this problem because of the pending lawsuit. Companies hate to lose customers but hate to lose lawsuits even more.

[Tarpeian Rock]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but can't a Captain put anyone off the ship he deems a bad passenger?

 

If this were someone who, for example, was constantly damaging items on the ship, or causing other passengers much distress, I thought that the Captain could have them removed from the ship?

 

Maybe the issue with "having their hands tied" has to do with the fact that they can't put her ashore with the dog? Maybe the dog isn't cleared to actually get off the ship.

 

 

 

I wondered the same thing. Surely the ADA doesn't exempt the animal's owner from responsibility for clean-up. In the absence of her willingness to do that, arguably she created a health menace toward other pax and should have been put off.

 

This whole animal companion area is out of control - the airport nearest us, Hartford, has been in the news the last several days due to a woman's attempt to board with a full-sized 70-pound pot bellied "emotional support" pig. What a great example of how the "law of unintended consequences" kicks in when well-meaning but too loose legislation is passed and the unelected bureaucrats add-on their own little goodies; apparently even miniature horses qualify under the regulations as allowed comfort animals. Can't wait to see lil' Mr. Ed in the Lido.

[Mmtrip]

:D Does anyone know if these lovely passengers and dog will be getting off the Amsterdam in San Diego at the conclusion of the Grand Voyage?

 

I believe that Jeff of World Adventures Blog fame is staying on. I wonder how many others will be sailing on after 78 days of travel??!!!

 

But more specifically, the dog people...LOL

 

Anyone have the answers?

 

Again - I have my own selfish (obvious by looking at my next sail date) reasons...

[JB&JLG74]

I'm wondering if any passengers have confronted the woman with her bad behavior?

 

I'm sorry for the passengers, but I feel bad for the dog too. Doesn't sound like it's being treated well.

 

I agree with Jacqui too--I love my cats, but I make sure they are cared for at home. They would hate cruising! And I kind of enjoy a break from them (don't tell).

 

Many passengers have confronted this woman, some rather loudly. One story says when the husband told her to calm down she threw a drink at him.

[JB&JLG74]

Maybe the issue with "having their hands tied" has to do with the fact that they can't put her ashore with the dog? Maybe the dog isn't cleared to actually get off the ship.

 

The dog went on shore excursions in Fiji and Samoa. Passengers have photos.

[JB&JLG74]

If someone did, this woman sounds like the kind who would complain to HAL that she was being harassed because she has a disability.

 

 

 

No doubt HAL is trying to tiptoe around this problem because of the pending lawsuit. Companies hate to lose customers but hate to lose lawsuits even more.

 

I do think the pending lawsuit is impacting HAL's behavior. Some believe that this woman is trying to provoke HAL so she can sue.

[JB&JLG74]

:D Does anyone know if these lovely passengers and dog will be getting off the Amsterdam in San Diego at the conclusion of the Grand Voyage?

 

I believe that Jeff of World Adventures Blog fame is staying on. I wonder how many others will be sailing on after 78 days of travel??!!!

 

But more specifically, the dog people...LOL

 

Anyone have the answers?

 

Again - I have my own selfish (obvious by looking at my next sail date) reasons...

 

Sorry I don't know where she is disembarking but I think it is San Diego. But I have heard she has booked another cruise. Wish I knew which one so I can be sure to avoid it.

[Floridiana]

I understand why people don't want a dog at the table, I would not want him sitting there either. She is probably being feeding him, too.

 

However, has this dog given anyone a cold by coughing and sneezing on table mates? Has he given anyone a Noro virus infection? Maybe the little pooch is less of a danger to passengers' health than some humans. Just saying.

[midwest 852]

Ok so passengers have tried to speak with the owner & HAL officials.

Now start video taping the "lady" & dog! I would make sure she knew that I was taping her and the she could watch it on youtube. (as long as your in public areas on the ship there's nothing she can do about it)!

If it's truly a service dog no angency will place another animal with her.

[Tarpeian Rock]

I understand why people don't want a dog at the table, I would not want him sitting there either. She is probably being feeding him, too.

 

However, has this dog given anyone a cold by coughing and sneezing on table mates? Has he given anyone a Noro virus infection? Maybe the little pooch is less of a danger to passengers' health than some humans. Just saying.

 

 

 

False comparison. Do many pax defecate on carpets in public areas? By your standard, maybe miniature horses should be allowed on board too - after all, under the law they can be considered companion animals, and people don't get colds or noro from horses. But I don't think that allows us to overlook the "presents" we'd have to step over making our way around the ship. I wonder if they make formal feed bags for those special nights in the MDR......

[durangoscots]

I do think the pending lawsuit is impacting HAL's behavior. Some believe that this woman is trying to provoke HAL so she can sue.

 

The ADA is very clear about the need to clean up after the animal.... But, you know how the media loves to report and distort.... can you see the headlines "Woman and Service dog forced off of Holland America luxury cruise ship"?

 

Susan

Edited December 1, 2014 by durangoscots

[babyher]

The ADA is very clear about the need to clean up after the animal.... But, you know how the media loves to report and distort.... can you see the headlines "Woman and Service dog forced off of Holland America luxury cruise ship"?

 

Susan

 

 

 

 

Exactly

 

 

You can practically hear the violins playing now.

[Windsailer]

Exactly

 

 

You can practically hear the violins playing now.

 

I think if the article included photos of the dog in her fancy clothes eating off the table in the Lido as well as photos of the dog poop by the elevator, if there was article it would less one sided. Much like the US Air pig debacle.

 

Recognizing that HAL is doing nothing to fix the current problem with the dog on the Amsterdam, at the very least this should be a wake-up call to HAL to more closely screen the requests to bring a "service" dog on HAL ships in the future.

 

And if HAL has allowed this passenger to book a future cruise and allow her to bring that dog on board I am very, very disappointed with HAL.

[bcummin]

This is the heart of the polite reply that I received from HAL on 11/5/2014.

 

"Regarding the dog brought on board, please note, Holland America Line does not allow comfort animals as these animals are not covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Additionally, guests with service animals are required to provide a copy of health certificate documentation for the animal from a licensed veterinarian and any other paperwork required by the local governments at the ship’s ports of call. As long as the guest can provide the required documentation, we must allow these animals on board. There are many types of service animals. In addition to the most commonly recognized seeing-eye dog, service animals are also frequently trained to perform tasks relating to hearing alert, retrieval of items, and assisting with pulling a wheelchair, as well as alerting individuals of a medical emergency. With that being said, we are very sorry if you found the demeanor of the guest on this sailing to be disruptive. We have forwarded your concerns to our Access and Compliance department for their information and corrective action where necessary."

 

I appreciate hearing the posts from others who are still cruising with the dog woman. She should never be allowed to board a Holland America ship again.

My heart is with Henk and Christel, who are having to deal with this mess. HAL should never have allowed this to happen. I hoped that complaining to HAL might help, while onboard complaints from others had not.

 

Barbara

Edited December 1, 2014 by bcummin

[Windsailer]

This is the heart of the polite reply that I received from HAL on 11/5/2014.

 

"Regarding the dog brought on board, please note, Holland America Line does not allow comfort animals as these animals are not covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Additionally, guests with service animals are required to provide a copy of health certificate documentation for the animal from a licensed veterinarian and any other paperwork required by the local governments at the ship’s ports of call. As long as the guest can provide the required documentation, we must allow these animals on board. There are many types of service animals. In addition to the most commonly recognized seeing-eye dog, service animals are also frequently trained to perform tasks relating to hearing alert, retrieval of items, and assisting with pulling a wheelchair, as well as alerting individuals of a medical emergency. With that being said, we are very sorry if you found the demeanor of the guest on this sailing to be disruptive. We have forwarded your concerns to our Access and Compliance department for their information and corrective action where necessary."

 

I appreciate hearing the posts from others who are cruising with the dog woman.

My heart is with Henk and Chrystal, who are having to deal with this mess. HAL should never have allowed this to happen.

 

Barbara

 

Based on this letter it doesn't sound like the HAL screening isn't going far enough. While the ADA allows the following two questions to be asked: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform, it seems like HAL only cares about documents from a vet.

 

Oh, well.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Windsailer

[Jade13]

Ok so passengers have tried to speak with the owner & HAL officials.

Now start video taping the "lady" & dog! I would make sure she knew that I was taping her and the she could watch it on youtube. (as long as your in public areas on the ship there's nothing she can do about it)!

If it's truly a service dog no angency will place another animal with her.

 

Good idea. The video needs to be sent to HAL.