Shared Excursions - Risks for the organizer

[rjp50]

This is a general question that pertains to all ports, not just Italy. However, I thought I would pose it here first.

 

Has anyone ever had a situation where they used the Roll Call to organize a shared excursion but then had people drop out after the cutoff date for cancellations, thus stiffing the organizer for their portion of the tour? I know that some tour operators now have each participant put in their credit card information so that if any people back out after the cancellation date, it is them, and not the organizer, who has to pay for the no show. However, not all tour operators work that way and some ports do not appear to have the option to choose tour operators who do.

 

Does anyone have any creative ideas to eliminate or minimize the risk?

I'd like to think that everyone is honest and ethical and if they had to cancel for any reason after the cancellation deadline that they would own up to their commitment in terms of payment. However, we all know that not all people operate this way.

 

On a related note, how about the situation where the cancellation comes very late, but before the deadline? Technically this doesn't pose a financial risk to the remaining participants since they have the option to cancel the entire tour. However, that leaves them scrambling at the last minute and quite possibly while onboard the ship, to come up with Plan B or live with the higher cost per person to have the tour continue as planned.

Edited April 30, 2015 by rjp50

[chipmaster]

Tour sharing is all about amortizing the cost across a larger group.

 

There is the risk you get all the people and get surprised by there interest/travel style. You can manage this by being clear who is "boss" and what the priorities and style will be.

 

There is the risk that they don't show up and you pay the whole amount.

 

I did tour share, two vans and we had room for 4 more people, we found in some ports we got 4, two couples, in a couple ports they opted out. We just sucked up the cost for better or worse.

[cruisemom42]

As you know already, there's no way to guarantee that this won't happen, but I do think it's not that common. Some things that I've done (or that others whose tours I've been on have done) include:

 

Asking all participants to commit via email to paying their share for the tour whether or not they go, or to finding someone to take their place (it should be THEIR job and not yours) after final payment for the cruise. Up until final payment, I would consider cancellation to be relatively fair. Some people keep a waiting list of those who expressed an interest but were too late to be accommodated originally.

 

Communicate with all participants every so often to keep up enthusiasm and to ensure someone doesn't "forget" they signed up with you for the tour.

 

Some arrangers have asked for payment to them in advance (via Paypal or other means). I have never done that or participated in a tour that did, so I'm not sure how that works....

 

Finally, I think people who take private tours need to understand that there IS a slight risk of a no-show and of having to each pay more proportionally if that happens. I don't think the burden should fall on the arranger. Sometimes when I recruit for a private tour I have said "The cost will be $X or $Y per person, depending on whether we have 6 or 8 participants."

 

I think smaller tour groups (up to 6 or maybe 8) have fewer problems. I would not arrange a group for any more than this -- otherwise you negate most of the benefit of taking a private tour!

Edited April 30, 2015 by cruisemom42

[stipmom]

Although it did not happen to me, on a cruise I took a few years ago one couple did not like the tour and refused to pay for it. Everyone else had to cover their share.

[buggins0402]

We had some no shows on a St. Petersburg tour last year. I was not the organizer, but we all just kicked in to cover. But, thankfully tthe tour company had a sliding scale that the difference from 8 people to 6 was not anywhere near what it would have been to pick up the cost of what the two missing people would have paid. We were actually happy the two did not show.

[mickeysgal]

Our first Med. cruise we shared excursions with folks on the roll call. For Rome and Florence with another couple, then Naples with a larger group of people. We met on the roll call and exchanged emails and phone numbers. I had the one Rome/Florence couple call me and point blank ask me if we were committed to this tour. Never gave her the impression that we weren't but I'd bet she was worried for exactly the same reason you're posting...that she would be left with the entire cost if we didn't show up. It all worked out fine. All tours went off without a hitch money-wise. It is a measure of trust to some degree so the better you all talk it out now, email/phone, the better you'll all feel.

[euro cruiser]

From a financial and, to some extent, emotional standpoint I think you have to go into this assuming the worst, that you'll have to pay for the entire thing. If you can't handle that perhaps this isn't for you.

 

The experience of folks on these boards indicates that the worst case is extremely rare ... but if you are prepared to handle it should you have to, everything else is a plus.

[b_cruise]

We had one girl not come on our rome tour because she was sick. It was pay at the end but per person. I was so happy italytoursharing.com ( joe bananas) honoured the 8 pricing even though we only had 7. Go with reputable companies and they are really good!!

[maryann ns]

On our first ever cruise, I ended up organizing something like ten excursions. It started because the two of us became six and then eight and for some places it was better to have a few more. I was given some excellent advice here and ended up writing an email to all participants which outlined how we would pay and that if people cancelled they would still be responsible for their share. There were a couple cancellations while onboard and these people did pay. It all worked out extremely well.

 

You need to have each person's email and room number on the ship.

 

If you would like a copy of the email I sent you can find me under the same name on Trip Advisor and send me a private message.

[lovemylab]

You can minimize the risk by getting email addresses and cabin numbers of those you're sharing with.

 

I've been on small group tours where people backed out once they were on the ship; however, we were able to find others to join us.

[rjp50]

We had one girl not come on our rome tour because she was sick. It was pay at the end but per person. I was so happy italytoursharing.com ( joe bananas) honoured the 8 pricing even though we only had 7. Go with reputable companies and they are really good!!

 

Yes, Joe Bananas, Rome in Limo, and a few others have their sign up process such that everyone puts in their own credit card number and hence is only responsible for their own charges. Companies like these need to be supported. Hopefully other tour companies will get onboard and also adopt this system - it only works in their favor since it removes an important hurdle that faces potential organizers. I emailed one tour operator who had terrific reviews about their policy on no shows and they said they would hold the organizer responsible. Too bad for them since that policy eliminated them from consideration.

[cruisemom42]

Yes, Joe Bananas, Rome in Limo, and a few others have their sign up process such that everyone puts in their own credit card number and hence is only responsible for their own charges. Companies like these need to be supported. Hopefully other tour companies will get onboard and also adopt this system - it only works in their favor since it removes an important hurdle that faces potential organizers. I emailed one tour operator who had terrific reviews about their policy on no shows and they said they would hold the organizer responsible. Too bad for them since that policy eliminated them from consideration.

 

It's nice that they are willing to do it, but I'm not so sure the burden should be on them if you all agree to a price for the day and then the driver/guide ends up making less. He or she or they are still providing the same contracted service, whether there are 6 or 8 people.

 

Think of it this way -- Let's say four businesses sharing a building decide to have it painted by a professional painter. You get a bid, agree on a price and a painter, and then just before the painter starts work, one of the four businesses moves out of the building. Is it fair to ask the painter to charge less for the work?

[rjp50]

It's nice that they are willing to do it, but I'm not so sure the burden should be on them if you all agree to a price for the day and then the driver/guide ends up making less. He or she or they are still providing the same contracted service, whether there are 6 or 8 people.

 

Think of it this way -- Let's say four businesses sharing a building decide to have it painted by a professional painter. You get a bid, agree on a price and a painter, and then just before the painter starts work, one of the four businesses moves out of the building. Is it fair to ask the painter to charge less for the work?

 

Perhaps you don't understand how these tour operators work. If someone doesn't show up, or cancels after the cancellation period, they bill the credit card of those who don't show up. There really is no additional burden (and certainly no lost revenue) other than setting up the approprite web site to collect CC information from all participants rather than just the tour organizer. It's how one would expect a tour sharing business to operate.

[cruisemom42]

Perhaps you don't understand how these tour operators work. If someone doesn't show up, or cancels after the cancellation period, they bill the credit card of those who don't show up. There really is no additional burden (and certainly no lost revenue) other than setting up the approprite web site to collect CC information from all participants rather than just the tour organizer. It's how one would expect a tour sharing business to operate.

 

I understand it. I've been traveling in Europe for more than 30 years and have taken 7 Mediterranean cruises and spent more than 6 weeks in Italy since 2006. :)

 

But in Italy, as with many places in Europe, private tours are often quoted as a fixed cost, not a per-person cost. For example, an 8-hour tour in a 8-seat van is a fixed cost of $X, whether than $X is divided among 6 or 8 people.

 

Or put another way, a guide at Pompeii charges 10 euro per head for a two-hour tour. She gathers a group of 10 people, they, pay, and they head off.

 

RIL charges 100 euro for that same guided tour for their private tour customers who want a guide. Either way, the guide is getting the same amount: 100 euro.

 

Rome in Limo, by the way is not an Italian company. (And they only started offering the tour-share opportunity about 3 years ago. Clearly there's a market for it.) The fact that they are willing to eat the cost of no-shows suggests to me that they might be overcharging to start with.

Edited May 1, 2015 by cruisemom42

[rjp50]

I understand it. I've been traveling in Europe for more than 30 years and have taken 7 Mediterranean cruises and spent more than 6 weeks in Italy since 2006. :)

 

But in Italy, as with many places in Europe, private tours are often quoted as a fixed cost, not a per-person cost. For example, an 8-hour tour in a 8-seat van is a fixed cost of $X, whether than $X is divided among 6 or 8 people.

 

Or put another way, a guide at Pompeii charges 10 euro per head for a two-hour tour. She gathers a group of 10 people, they, pay, and they head off.

 

RIL charges 100 euro for that same guided tour for their private tour customers who want a guide. Either way, the guide is getting the same amount: 100 euro.

 

Rome in Limo, by the way is not an Italian company. (And they only started offering the tour-share opportunity about 3 years ago. Clearly there's a market for it.) The fact that they are willing to eat the cost of no-shows suggests to me that they might be overcharging to start with.

 

Somehow we aren't connecting. RIL and Joe Bananas and the like are not eating any charges for no shows ... they bill the credit cards of the people who don't show up.

[cruisemom42]

Somehow we aren't connecting. RIL and Joe Bananas and the like are not eating any charges for no shows ... they bill the credit cards of the people who don't show up.

 

Apologies. I read your post that mentioned Joe Banana and somehow when I came back later I confused you with the poster who said that they honored the 8-person price although only 7 showed up.

 

Too many hours at work this week. :o

[b_cruise]

Somehow we aren't connecting. RIL and Joe Bananas and the like are not eating any charges for no shows ... they bill the credit cards of the people who don't show up.

 

I can guarantee you this did not happen on our joe banana tour! They did not charge for the sick person

[rjp50]

I can guarantee you this did not happen on our joe banana tour! They did not charge for the sick person

 

Interesting. However, they do maintain the right to charge the credit card. This is what they wrote to me:

 

If you set up a tour through Italy Tour Sharing (our sharing website) then each member that joins is required to submit their own credit card info for guarantee of services. If someone cancels less than 7 days prior to the scheduled tour or is a no-show the day of the tour, they will be held accountable for the amount due for their individual party, the tour rates will not change for the others in the group. We reserve the right to charge their credit card only, we would not charge the group creator.

 

The last phrase is the key for this discussion - with shared tour companies like Bananas and RIL that hold individuals responsible for their commitment rather than the group creator, the risk incurred by the group creator becomes minimal. If only all tour companies worked this way.

Edited May 2, 2015 by rjp50

[b_cruise]

It was through joe bananas direct. I got the group together and I was the only one who provided the credit card. I think they may say that but again, it depends what tour company u use and your prior arrangements maybe. Maybe because right at the beginning of the tour because the girl was ill, I made sure I would not be charged and was not. We paid the , even though there were only seven.

 

Joe banana and italytoursharing.com has always been so good to me and that is why I highly recommend them!! I have been using them since 2011. I like to go to Europe in July. I'm booked on NCL this summer and carnival next....whooohooooo!!

Edited May 2, 2015 by b_cruise

[Red Hat Cruise Cat]

This is a general question that pertains to all ports, not just Italy. However, I thought I would pose it here first.

 

Has anyone ever had a situation where they used the Roll Call to organize a shared excursion but then had people drop out after the cutoff date for cancellations, thus stiffing the organizer for their portion of the tour? I know that some tour operators now have each participant put in their credit card information so that if any people back out after the cancellation date, it is them, and not the organizer, who has to pay for the no show. However, not all tour operators work that way and some ports do not appear to have the option to choose tour operators who do.

 

Does anyone have any creative ideas to eliminate or minimize the risk?

I'd like to think that everyone is honest and ethical and if they had to cancel for any reason after the cancellation deadline that they would own up to their commitment in terms of payment. However, we all know that not all people operate this way.

 

On a related note, how about the situation where the cancellation comes very late, but before the deadline? Technically this doesn't pose a financial risk to the remaining participants since they have the option to cancel the entire tour. However, that leaves them scrambling at the last minute and quite possibly while onboard the ship, to come up with Plan B or live with the higher cost per person to have the tour continue as planned.

 

 

It’s unfortunate, but there are times when the organizer DOES get stuck.

 

On a previous cruise, I guaranteed the numbers on my credit card and I had everyone’s names, e-mail, cabin numbers, personal assurances that they were going, etc. Well the night before the tour, I received a call from Stranger A who told me that she had dinner with one of the couples on my tour who told her that they weren’t going on the tour and that Stranger A might be interested. Well she wasn’t, so I called the couple and they said that they changed their minds. I explained that I had guaranteed the numbers with my credit card and told them they would need to pay their share. They refused, saying they “hadn’t signed anything”. They screwed me 2 ways – first by not even telling me they weren’t coming (found out from Stranger A) so I could find a replacement and then by not paying their share.

 

I got stuck paying for them since I had guaranteed the numbers with my credit card (and the others on the tour weren’t willing to pitch in for the No-shows)

 

Lesson Learned – I now collect for the tours on the first day of the cruise and anyone that doesn’t pay is no longer on the tour.

[rjp50]

That's too bad about what happened - not only with the people that changed their minds, but also the ones that did go on the tour but took advantage of your generosity of putting the tour together but didn't have your back by paying their fair share of the revised cost of the tour. Sometimes I feel that Cruise Critic should have a Hall of Shame where such people's IDs can be posted so that they don't take advantage of other tour organizers.

 

I like your idea about collecting payment on the first day of the cruise. At least that way, if someone doesn't want to pay, you have time to look for replacements.

[MTJtraveller]

I have put together various shared excursions from time to time and it has worked out well. I believe there are a few things that have helped me:

 

1) My party has usually been the largest part of the tour, therefore I am assuming most of the risk anyways.

 

2) Try to keep in real good touch with those you are sharing a tour with. I watched for number of posts on Cruisecritic for each participant, corresponded via email, and generally put together a group of well seasons travelers. Communication is key.

 

3) Try to get together at the meet & greet, collect money there if possible. This worked well for me on the Flaam train tix. I had my monies in hand the day of the excursion, after meeting at the meet & greet, so I could get off the ship early & secure the tickets which were under my name.

 

4) Sometimes it pays to have a backup list of people & their cabin numbers in case a last minute cancellation. Be willing to communicate with those folks too if it seems they won't be able to join your group. It takes a little bit more energy & legwork, but a last minute cancellation disaster was avoided by getting in touch with someone who had expressed an interest after we had finalized our group.

 

I have met the nicest people on shared excursions.

[LEtue]

It’s unfortunate, but there are times when the organizer DOES get stuck.

 

On a previous cruise, I guaranteed the numbers on my credit card and I had everyone’s names, e-mail, cabin numbers, personal assurances that they were going, etc. Well the night before the tour, I received a call from Stranger A who told me that she had dinner with one of the couples on my tour who told her that they weren’t going on the tour and that Stranger A might be interested. Well she wasn’t, so I called the couple and they said that they changed their minds. I explained that I had guaranteed the numbers with my credit card and told them they would need to pay their share. They refused, saying they “hadn’t signed anything”. They screwed me 2 ways – first by not even telling me they weren’t coming (found out from Stranger A) so I could find a replacement and then by not paying their share.

 

I got stuck paying for them since I had guaranteed the numbers with my credit card (and the others on the tour weren’t willing to pitch in for the No-shows)

 

Lesson Learned – I now collect for the tours on the first day of the cruise and anyone that doesn’t pay is no longer on the tour.

 

That is awful and I can't believe people would do that!

 

We did the same thing and collected all monies at the M&M. I guess that would have given us tour leaders time to find other interested people and we did have waitlists.

 

I am getting ready to set up tours for next year and I will definitely use RIL or Joe Banana (which actually seems to have some better options in Naples).

 

Glad I found this thread!

[Chloe1500]

That is awful and I can't believe people would do that!

 

We did the same thing and collected all monies at the M&M. I guess that would have given us tour leaders time to find other interested people and we did have waitlists.

 

I am getting ready to set up tours for next year and I will definitely use RIL or Joe Banana (which actually seems to have some better options in Naples).

 

Glad I found this thread!

 

FWI Aldo's Limos out of Sorrento also does this, taking each party's info and credit card no. although actual payment is made at the end of the tour. We did this for the Almafi Coast and really liked the driver. Aldo himself met us along the way to ask how the day was going. Sweet guy.

[samavarcruiser]

Perhaps you don't understand how these tour operators work. If someone doesn't show up, or cancels after the cancellation period, they bill the credit card of those who don't show up. There really is no additional burden (and certainly no lost revenue) other than setting up the approprite web site to collect CC information from all participants rather than just the tour organizer. It's how one would expect a tour sharing business to operate.

 

But bere you answered your own question :D