Raising gratuities again!

[bloodymary]

These are not mandatory fees. These are DSC. You can change them to zero if you so chose. Of course you won't do that because that would shaft the poor staff working hard. But you are under no binding obligation to pay DSC.

Thank you, MANDATORY is the word I was looking for. We are British and we do not pay for thinks until they happen. Do not Shaft worker, they prefer to have cash, and I get hugs back jENNIFER

[rvsullivan]

Thank you, MANDATORY is the word I was looking for. We are British and we do not pay for thinks until they happen. Do not Shaft worker, they prefer to have cash, and I get hugs back jENNIFER

 

So you should be good with the DSC then. It is charged each night for the day that just ended, hence, no advance payment. Works out for you and the employee's. How do you find all those "behind the scenes" workers that serve you? And of course if you remove the DSC, the employee's you tip in cash turn it in to be shared with the others.

[punkincc]

So you should be good with the DSC then. It is charged each night for the day that just ended, hence, no advance payment. Works out for you and the employee's. How do you find all those "behind the scenes" workers that serve you? And of course if you remove the DSC, the employee's you tip in cash turn it in to be shared with the others.

 

Your last statement re the employee being required to turn in cash tips for those who remove the DSC, does anyone really know this for a fact? I'd really like to know.

 

I just can't see how that scenario can be worked out. NCL clearly states that employees are free to keep any cash tips given by passengers. If a passenger is tipping cash to various people during the week, how would any of those employees have a clue what that passenger has done with their DSC? Some may even wait until the last day of the cruise and then ask that DSC be refunded or adjusted. How would the ship even know who to ask for those tips back from? I am sure they are not earmarked, $20 from Joe Brown at the Sugarcane Bar on Nov 3rd at 10:30 PM. The employee just has some cash at the end of the week not associated to any particular passenger.

 

Not that I am an advocate of removing DSC in lieu of cash tips. Only the people in front of you get tipped, and none of the ones behind the scenes who also make the cruise enjoyable. But the idea that a cash tip on Monday is suddenly required to be put in a pool on Thurday when DSC is removed just seems absurd.

[Demonyte]

NCL clearly states that employees are free to keep any cash tips given by passengers.

 

 

Just like you'd like to know for sure about the pooling of tips, I'd like to know where NCL clearly states that employees could keep any cash tips from passengers that have removed their DSC - to my understanding only place that mentions cash tips in FAQ is where it is regarding *additional* tipping (for over and above service).

 

Disclaimer: I didn't go through the FAQ as I'm writing this on my phone.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Demonyte

[maywell]

Your last statement re the employee being required to turn in cash tips for those who remove the DSC, does anyone really know this for a fact? I'd really like to know.

 

I just can't see how that scenario can be worked out. NCL clearly states that employees are free to keep any cash tips given by passengers. If a passenger is tipping cash to various people during the week, how would any of those employees have a clue what that passenger has done with their DSC? Some may even wait until the last day of the cruise and then ask that DSC be refunded or adjusted. How would the ship even know who to ask for those tips back from? I am sure they are not earmarked, $20 from Joe Brown at the Sugarcane Bar on Nov 3rd at 10:30 PM. The employee just has some cash at the end of the week not associated to any particular passenger.

 

Not that I am an advocate of removing DSC in lieu of cash tips. Only the people in front of you get tipped, and none of the ones behind the scenes who also make the cruise enjoyable. But the idea that a cash tip on Monday is suddenly required to be put in a pool on Thurday when DSC is removed just seems absurd.

 

 

 

Personally no, I won't know if they get the cash tips back but they swipe at least one person's sail card at the MDR / O'Sheenan / specialty restaurant when getting a table for dining - so its not that hard for Guest Services to figure out who some of the waiters were. I remember that from last year when someone try to remove the DSC by claiming they ate all their meals at the buffet but Guest Service said the card history proved otherwise - so I guess the NCL does track it somewhat.....

[soloadventurer]

Can you still cancel your gratuities once your onboard ? and then pay the staff directly

[Gershep]

Can you still cancel your gratuities once your onboard ? and then pay the staff directly

 

Yes you can go to Guest Services to have them removed.

[punkincc]

Just like you'd like to know for sure about the pooling of tips, I'd like to know where NCL clearly states that employees could keep any cash tips from passengers that have removed their DSC - to my understanding only place that mentions cash tips in FAQ is where it is regarding *additional* tipping (for over and above service).

 

Disclaimer: I didn't go through the FAQ as I'm writing this on my phone.

 

And can you tell me where it states in the FAQS or elsewhere that any cash tip must be returned by the employee if you remove DSC? That scenario is not discussed at all.

 

And still no one has been able to answer the question of how this tracking and recapture of cash tips could possibly occur. My DSC is linked to no particular employee ( it does not even go straight into the pocked of MY room steward as the DSC is pooled ) and NCL has no clue who I tip in cash. It's a convenient comeback to those who advocate cash tips vs the DSC, but I don't believe there is anything to back up the claim other than the desire of the poster that it should be true.

[Demonyte]

... I don't believe there is anything to back up the claim other than the desire of the poster that it should be true.

 

 

Nor is there anything to back up your claim. :)

 

And no, I'm not taking either side here - both rumours are widespread around here.

[mking8288]

Tipping, gratuities and DSC are one of the most debated topic here among CC's and maybe not so clear for the average cruise pax - for land-based restaurants, there are really no set rules and the amount/percentage of tips (and/or called gratuities, for "technical" and tax reasons) do vary - some will automatically add the amount for larger group/party of 5 or 6 people (and higher #). For weddings & banquets, it's usually (sometimes, negotiated) calculated based on the total # of guests in the contract / guaranteed final # given). Others leave it strictly up to the guests and yet, it is also trending in some restaurants (with signage to inform & remind the guests, yes) that tipping is not expected / required / suggested, etc. and already included in the costs of the meal, etc.

 

Servers at most, if not all upscale fine dining restaurants generally expect tipping or gratuities - whereas those that worked in buffets, basically bringing beverages and cleaning plates, as it's usually a DIY or self-service setting, don't generally get "big" tips. Some will add it to the "checK" and write that into the credit card/charge slip - while others will pay cash, including any tipped amount. We sometimes pay the "check" amount with credit card but hand the cash to the server in person.

 

We dine out quite often at variety of land restaurants, and it is not uncommon - especially systems of computerized "checks" to calculate & suggest the tipping or gratuity amount, taking the "guess" work out - offering 4 options: 15%, 18% and 20% - and, others ______ (write-in: which can be higher as in 25% or lower as in 12% or even 10%)

 

Tipping also has a cultural/ethnic element to it - folks from China visiting and cruising aren't accustomed to tipping - so 18% is considered very high to them. Koreans also do not tip for service - and, you can "Google" it yourself.

 

That's the backdrop and/or bigger picture - where I'm framing some of the my thoughts into all these ... 18% is fine by us, when we dine out - 20% is the "benchmark" for good to excellent service - we've given more & we've done less when it's "appropriate" for just average or minimal/marginal service ... so, let's not all "preach" that 18% is acceptable as the universal magical solution, especially when we simply do not know the amount or percent being withhold by management for parties or as administrative "fees" ...

 

I'm sure most of you have seen these "checks" at your local restaurants - but, for those from other parts of the world -

 

Just opening up another can of worms - by looking at the subject matters from a somewhat slip angle ... there are no easy/simple answers.

[punkincc]

Nor is there anything to back up your claim. :)

 

And no, I'm not taking either side here - both rumours are widespread around here.

 

But, I do not go around advising others that an employee will not be able to keep a cash tip if DSC is removed without any evidence to support this ( nor do you, I assume );).

[sjbdtz]

But, I do not go around advising others that an employee will not be able to keep a cash tip if DSC is removed without any evidence to support this ( nor do you, I assume );).

 

No, but you DO go around suggesting that they don't have to turn-in the cash tips if their guest removed the DSC.

 

 

Let's put it this way:

 

The DSC, according to NCL covers all of the waitstaff in the MDR, the room stewards, and "certain behind-the-scenes crew" who work as a team to make the vacation enjoyable.

 

So if you remove the DSC and give the exact same amount ($13.50 x 2 x 7) to your room steward, then your waitstaff and the 'behind-the-scenes' crew all get stiffed.

 

UNLESS...there's a rule which says "if your guest removes the DSC, and gives you cash instead, you are obligated to turn in that cash, to ensure the rest of your team are also compensated".

 

That would be sensible rule, otherwise they'd have no waiters or behind-the-scenes crew, and lots of very wealthy room stewards.

 

The concept of tipping-out your junior assistants, bar-backs, dishwasher, etc. is not uncommon in the restaurant industry. Wait-staff are not keeping the full 18%. They have to apportion it to the people who help them get their jobs done efficiently.

 

 

 

The same with the concierge. You can be certain that palms are greased where needed, to ensure the smoothest passage for the concierge's guests...even if it's just a beer or two from time-to-time.

 

 

The DSC in all it's dually-increased glory, is designed to take ALL of the guess-work out of the mechanics of whose palm gets greased, and how.... it makes it easier for the guest, and it makes it easier for the crew.

 

 

As for "how would anybody know"? The ship's crew are a community. A crew member might get away with keeping the cash once or twice, but people would know eventually...and they'd lose their job, which we recall is very high-paying compared to what they can get at home.

 

 

So these people who strive to buck the system and do things their own way, are just creating more work for the people they're trying to reward - without any actual reward being given. Oh, and those service personnel then get called onto the carpet to explain themselves. If they can say "oh, they gave us cash and I turned it in to Accounting", that is a defense against a perception of poor service.

 

 

And of course those people give hugs back....they probably thought they were being completely stiffed due to the removal of the DSC and were going to have to go & explain themselves.

 

 

Stephen

 

.

Edited July 25, 2015 by sjbdtz

[fstuff1]

I'm sure most of you have seen these "checks" at your local restaurants - but, for those from other parts of the world -

 

at least this restaurant calculates the tipping before taxes.

 

some restaurants have the suggested tipping AFTER taxes. :mad:

ie: $100 food, 8% tax = $108

15% suggested tip = $16.20 instead of $15 :(

 

BEFORE taxes should be the correct way EVERY restaurant uses to calculate suggested tips!!

(And I haven't set foot again in those restaurants that set the tip calculations to after taxes.)

Edited July 25, 2015 by fstuff1

[ColinIllinois]

 

 

Couldn't help but laugh when I noticed "Meow" on the receipt from the Asian restaurant. Sure hope that was the servers name and not what they were serving. lol

[emcelh]

Does anyone else feel like they're in "Groundhog Day"? This is the same discussion I've read on this forum over and over.

 

I think that most people accept that the DSC covers a portion of the salaries of certain crew members, more than those who would be tipped in cash by people who remove the DSC. I would expect that if enough people choose to go this route, and cash tips are not pooled, over time there would be a shortfall in funds to pay the people who aren't handed cash. One of two things will happen, they increase the DSC or they increase the cruise fare. Some will say it isn't their responsibility to pay the salaries of these people, it's the corporation's. Where do you think that money comes from? Passengers are going to pay it one way or another.

[jb456]

 

The DSC in all it's dually-increased glory, is designed to take ALL of the guess-work out of the mechanics of whose palm gets greased, and how.... it makes it easier for the guest, and it makes it easier for the crew.

 

.

 

Except the DSC is a gratuity and you don't tip to "bribe" or as you say "grease palms" for better service. A tip is not obligatory, it is at the consumers discretion, as a good will gesture to those that went above and beyond their job description after service has been rendered. Not before service has been received!

 

The waiter applied for a position knowing full well what their salary would be, knowing majority of salary would depend on tips and signed a contract agreeing to this. Their job is to wait on tables with a smile, pick up plates, and provide excellent service. That's their job! Anything they do above the job description is grounds for an incentive such as a gratuity by the consumer at the consumers discretion. It's not the consumers responsibility to pay the waiters salary in the form of a DSC/Gratuity. It's the employers responsibility to be pay them!

 

Reading these last few threads, I shake my head at many, cause some are all caught up in the cruise lines fantastic marketing skills. Many are FREE secretaries for cruise lines promoting auto DSC / Gratuity and prepaying. This is what marketing exactly wanted everyone to do! Common sense that 98% percent of consumers will not bother wasting precious vacation time to go complain and adjust a transaction when they do receive bad service. In the last few treads about this new raise of DSC many have said " In the past we shrugged off bad service and let it slide, not anymore, we will adjust DSC now when bad service is received" Exact reason why cruise lines decided to make it auto as they knew the masses would shrug off bad service.

 

As for prepaying for a service you have not even received and may not even receive for over another year. Ridiculous! Keep helping the rich get richer! Obviously the millions of dollars these cruise lines receive in prepaid form are not just held in escrow till you cruise in 2017. They are likely put into investments to earn more money. By the time your 2017 cruise takes place they probably made 5 times the amount that you originally paid and are laughing at the you.

 

So maybe this second increase in DSC this year has something to do with future plans of NCL that they want to invest in something that is coming up shortly.. Maybe some new stocks from a tech company? Business ventures (hmm Cuba is opening up soon to USA citizens? A new boat?

 

How do you get millions of dollars quick for an investment without any loans / banks??? Well when your a cruise line who has a fleet of boats that can hold 39000 people a day on their fleet, over 10 million a year, who have cruises booked all the way up to 2017 you simply make a small increase of DSC and tell all those consumers if they pay by Aug 2015 they can pay at the old rate instead of the new one.

 

Now thousands rush to pay and NCL uses that money for their investments which will provide a return before you even sail in 2017.... So keep helping them folks LOL

 

And those that say they got their DSC free as their TA paid them or via a promo then have the nerve to turn around and call someone cheap on the forums for removing or adjusting the DSC really how are you any better? You didn't pay them!

 

Those that like to gloat that they tip well above the DSC - Congrats! That's exactly who the marketing department was targeting!

 

Everyone should mind their own business and not worry about what the next person does with their money. Worry about your own!

Edited July 25, 2015 by jb456

[Jane Don]

No, but you DO go around suggesting that they don't have to turn-in the cash tips if their guest removed the DSC.

 

 

Let's put it this way:

 

The DSC, according to NCL covers all of the waitstaff in the MDR, the room stewards, and "certain behind-the-scenes crew" who work as a team to make the vacation enjoyable.

 

So if you remove the DSC and give the exact same amount ($13.50 x 2 x 7) to your room steward, then your waitstaff and the 'behind-the-scenes' crew all get stiffed.

 

UNLESS...there's a rule which says "if your guest removes the DSC, and gives you cash instead, you are obligated to turn in that cash, to ensure the rest of your team are also compensated".

 

That would be sensible rule, otherwise they'd have no waiters or behind-the-scenes crew, and lots of very wealthy room stewards.

 

The concept of tipping-out your junior assistants, bar-backs, dishwasher, etc. is not uncommon in the restaurant industry. Wait-staff are not keeping the full 18%. They have to apportion it to the people who help them get their jobs done efficiently.

 

 

 

The same with the concierge. You can be certain that palms are greased where needed, to ensure the smoothest passage for the concierge's guests...even if it's just a beer or two from time-to-time.

 

 

The DSC in all it's dually-increased glory, is designed to take ALL of the guess-work out of the mechanics of whose palm gets greased, and how.... it makes it easier for the guest, and it makes it easier for the crew.

 

 

As for "how would anybody know"? The ship's crew are a community. A crew member might get away with keeping the cash once or twice, but people would know eventually...and they'd lose their job, which we recall is very high-paying compared to what they can get at home.

 

 

So these people who strive to buck the system and do things their own way, are just creating more work for the people they're trying to reward - without any actual reward being given. Oh, and those service personnel then get called onto the carpet to explain themselves. If they can say "oh, they gave us cash and I turned it in to Accounting", that is a defense against a perception of poor service.

 

 

And of course those people give hugs back....they probably thought they were being completely stiffed due to the removal of the DSC and were going to have to go & explain themselves.

 

 

Stephen

 

.

 

 

This is part of a larger misinformation campaign propagated by interested parties to shame people into paying a discretionary charge. I worked for many years in a pooled-tip environment and I know some things about how the staff feels about sharing gratuities.

 

Here are some facts followed by some opinions.

 

Fact:

 

• NCL is the only major line to not provide customers with a detailed breakdown of how gratuities, DSC or the 18% added, are distributed amongst crew
  
• Demanding that employees turn over all cash gratuities by guests removing the DSC would be impossible to enforce.
  
• NCL, with the new mandatory gratuities on dining and bar is double charging the grats on those services.
  
• NCL admits that all gratuities collected do not go into crew pockets.
  
• NCL admits that managers and officers are sometimes recipients of DSC "incentives".
  
• NCL counts DSC as revenue in its financial statements and is under no obligation to apply any, some or all of it to employee wages.
  

 

Opinions:

 

 

• Good service providers prefer to earn and keep their own tips. Slackers enjoy the benefits of pooling without having to provide exemplary service.
  
• Tips are for front-line service staff, not laundry staff or cooks and especially not for management whose concerns are revenue, not service.
  
• People have the right to decide which staff to tip and how much to give to each. IF NCL wants to make those decisions, they should supply the funds.
  
• As a revenue stream it is the most powerful negotiating tool customers have to express displeasure with company decisions.
  

The bottom line is this; pay the DSC if you want, don't pay it if you don't want to. Everyone has the right to choose how they decide to tip. Tips are not obligations. Why on earth any passenger should be so "invested" in how others tip has very few logical explanations.

[jackson bernard]

Wild accusation, but you have no idea if they have to hand in the cash or not.

 

I will continue to tip in cash. Whatever the employee does with the money is his business.

[sjbdtz]

Except the DSC is a gratuity and you don't tip to "bribe" or as you say "grease palms" for better service. A tip is not obligatory, it is at the consumers discretion, as a good will gesture to those that went above and beyond their job description after service has been rendered. Not before service has been received!

 

The waiter applied for a position knowing full well what their salary would be, knowing majority of salary would depend on tips and signed a contract agreeing to this. Their job is to wait on tables with a smile, pick up plates, and provide excellent service. That's their job! Anything they do above the job description is grounds for an incentive such as a gratuity by the consumer at the consumers discretion. It's not the consumers responsibility to pay the waiters salary in the form of a DSC/Gratuity. It's the employers responsibility to be pay them!

 

Reading these last few threads, I shake my head at many, cause some are all caught up in the cruise lines fantastic marketing skills. Many are FREE secretaries for cruise lines promoting auto DSC / Gratuity and prepaying. This is what marketing exactly wanted everyone to do! Common sense that 98% percent of consumers will not bother wasting precious vacation time to go complain and adjust a transaction when they do receive bad service. In the last few treads about this new raise of DSC many have said " In the past we shrugged off bad service and let it slide, not anymore, we will adjust DSC now when bad service is received" Exact reason why cruise lines decided to make it auto as they knew the masses would shrug off bad service.

 

As for prepaying for a service you have not even received and may not even receive for over another year. Ridiculous! Keep helping the rich get richer! Obviously the millions of dollars these cruise lines receive in prepaid form are not just held in escrow till you cruise in 2017. They are likely put into investments to earn more money. By the time your 2017 cruise takes place they probably made 5 times the amount that you originally paid and are laughing at the you.

 

So maybe this second increase in DSC this year has something to do with future plans of NCL that they want to invest in something that is coming up shortly.. Maybe some new stocks from a tech company? Business ventures (hmm Cuba is opening up soon to USA citizens? A new boat?

 

How do you get millions of dollars quick for an investment without any loans / banks??? Well when your a cruise line who has a fleet of boats that can hold 39000 people a day on their fleet, over 10 million a year, who have cruises booked all the way up to 2017 you simply make a small increase of DSC and tell all those consumers if they pay by Aug 2015 they can pay at the old rate instead of the new one.

 

Now thousands rush to pay and NCL uses that money for their investments which will provide a return before you even sail in 2017.... So keep helping them folks LOL

 

And those that say they got their DSC free as their TA paid them or via a promo then have the nerve to turn around and call someone cheap on the forums for removing or adjusting the DSC really how are you any better? You didn't pay them!

 

Those that like to gloat that they tip well above the DSC - Congrats! That's exactly who the marketing department was targeting!

 

Everyone should mind their own business and not worry about what the next person does with their money. Worry about your own!

 

 

Except that the DSC is NOT a gratuity.

 

It's a Service Charge. Gratuities are not required on NCL, except in certain situations (spa, bar, specialty dining) - the services not delivered to ALL guests.

 

I worry about people paying the crew, because I don't want all of the crew to leave, and ruin the one company which has proven time & again it can deliver the type of vacation I desire.

 

 

Stephen

 

 

P.S. That junior waiter's salary: $50 / MONTH! Yes, per MONTH. The rest of their income is derived from their share of the DSC (subject to minimum in their contract).

 

So withholding would force the cruise line to cover the gap to the minimum monthly, which will drive cruise prices up. Either way, people will get paid - and it will be with your money.

 

 

.

[Demonyte]

Fact:

....

• NCL, with the new mandatory gratuities on dining and bar is double charging the grats on those services.
  

 

 

That is incorrect "fact". There are no mandatory gratuities anywhere on NCL. Auto-gratuities you mentioned are not mandatory, those are automatically added "for our convinience".

 

Also, those people are not covered by DSC (bar staff definitely is not, speciality restaurant staff was supposedly just cut off).

Edited July 25, 2015 by Demonyte

[punkincc]

No, but you DO go around suggesting that they don't have to turn-in the cash tips if their guest removed the DSC.

 

 

Let's put it this way:

 

The DSC, according to NCL covers all of the waitstaff in the MDR, the room stewards, and "certain behind-the-scenes crew" who work as a team to make the vacation enjoyable.

 

So if you remove the DSC and give the exact same amount ($13.50 x 2 x 7) to your room steward, then your waitstaff and the 'behind-the-scenes' crew all get stiffed.

 

UNLESS...there's a rule which says "if your guest removes the DSC, and gives you cash instead, you are obligated to turn in that cash, to ensure the rest of your team are also compensated".

 

Stephen

.

 

 

I do not go around suggesting anything. I only asked if it was a FACT that NCL has a requirement that all cash tips are required to be pooled, or that cash tips given when DSC is removed are somehow tracked down and required to be turned in, something that would seem nearly impossible to accomplish, and I am not the only one who thinks so.

 

You may believe that pooled cash tips would be a most "sensible" rule, but there is no evidence that this is in fact NCL's requirement. At least, no one has been able to supply any thus far.

 

I have never removed or adjusted DSC, probably never will. I do tip some additional cash to some people that I feel should be rewarded. But, if I learn that all cash tips must in fact be pooled per NCL, then I will no longer do this cash tipping. Why should I provide extra reward to those who are slackers? And if I were the employee, why would I bust my butt to provide stellar service if the "reward" for doing so does not go to me? Just one more reason why I do not believe these cash tips are pooled, regardless of what the passenger does with their DSC.

[Jane Don]

That is incorrect "fact". There are no mandatory gratuities anywhere on NCL. Auto-gratuities you mentioned are not mandatory, those are automatically added "for our convinience".

 

Also, those people are not covered by DSC (bar staff definitely is not, speciality restaurant staff was supposedly just cut off).

 

Not true. After I got the UBP as promo, I called and asked to have the gratuity removed. I like to tip pool waitstaff really well, especially when busy. I was told it can not be removed. It is the same with the UDP/SDP. Furthermore, a gratuity added to your bill for a single drink that can not be removed is mandatory and is only convenient for the service provider.

[NLH Arizona]

This is part of a larger misinformation campaign propagated by interested parties to shame people into paying a discretionary charge. I worked for many years in a pooled-tip environment and I know some things about how the staff feels about sharing gratuities.

 

Here are some facts followed by some opinions.

 

Fact:

 

• NCL is the only major line to not provide customers with a detailed breakdown of how gratuities, DSC or the 18% added, are distributed amongst crew
  
• Demanding that employees turn over all cash gratuities by guests removing the DSC would be impossible to enforce.
  
• NCL, with the new mandatory gratuities on dining and bar is double charging the grats on those services.
  
• NCL admits that all gratuities collected do not go into crew pockets.
  
• NCL admits that managers and officers are sometimes recipients of DSC "incentives".
  
• NCL counts DSC as revenue in its financial statements and is under no obligation to apply any, some or all of it to employee wages.
  

 

Please show proof of your facts.

[Demonyte]

After I got the UBP as promo, I called and asked to have the gratuity removed. ... I was told it can not be removed. It is the same with the UDP/SDP.

 

Terms and conditions of a promotion (or even a purchased package to begin with) are very different from auto-gratuity added on each bill after a service is rendered.

 

Furthermore, a gratuity added to your bill for a single drink that can not be removed is mandatory and is only convenient for the service provider.

 

By definition gratuities are discretionary, just because one is added by default to the bill does not mean that it can not be removed.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Demonyte

[Illyria]

By definition gratuities are discretionary, just because one is added by default to the bill does not mean that it can not be removed.

Would you feel better if they called it "service charge" instead?