Celebrity Reflection 11 Night Eastern Mediterranean No Istanbul

[Evangaline]

This thread has been an eye opener. I figure that if I again want to travel to destinations from Greece to Turkey, Middle East, Black Sea or Morocco, I will likely never do so by cruise ship. The area is prone to spots of volatility, be it serious or not really that serious, and I do not want decisions left to some corporate geek in an office in Miami or wherever to determine whether I get to to travel there. I want to be the person who decides. As much as I love cruising, the best way to do that is land-based vacations.

[cruisemom42]

We can make up whatever rules we went to to make ourselves feel better, but bottom line, it falls to the contract and what is written. We can be upset even, but we can only expo the words of the contracts we agreed to to determine any compensation in those cases.

 

IN the UK, they do get some better protection, due to the laws their government has enacted to protect the consumer in the case of multiple missed stops, for that privilege, they also tend to pay higher cruise fares.

 

If you book from the US, and they change from east to west but you get on the ship where they initially told you to, you are SOL unless you cancel, they can even just go sit out int he ocean for a week if they want to, probably even stay docked. If after final payments, you better have cancel for any reason insurance.

 

In the UK, however, they do have the right to cancel and refund.

 

Last year was the Broadway and Beaches transatlantic crossing, to include Bermuda for 2 days. They changed that, and it was no longer a "beaches" crusie at all.

 

I can't answer for Celebrity as I haven't cruised as extensively with them. But I do know other lines that substantively change an itinerary have offered the opportunity to change to a different cruise or to get a refund. (I'm talking about a major change like departing for the Baltics from London versus departing for the Western Med from London).

 

I also strongly suspect that any line that didn't deliver on an itinerary and indeed sat out in the ocean for a week would not be in business for long!

[Cruise Junky]

This thread has been an eye opener. I figure that if I again want to travel to destinations from Greece to Turkey, Middle East, Black Sea or Morocco, I will likely never do so by cruise ship. The area is prone to spots of volatility, be it serious or not really that serious, and I do not want decisions left to some corporate geek in an office in Miami or wherever to determine whether I get to to travel there. I want to be the person who decides. As much as I love cruising, the best way to do that is land-based vacations.

 

100% correct. And probably goes for anywhere in the world. Little bit of wind and you're not tendering at the Great Barrier Reef that you've travelled half way around the world for. Land vacations are far better if one place will break your trip.

[Pushka]

This thread has been an eye opener. I figure that if I again want to travel to destinations from Greece to Turkey, Middle East, Black Sea or Morocco, I will likely never do so by cruise ship. The area is prone to spots of volatility, be it serious or not really that serious, and I do not want decisions left to some corporate geek in an office in Miami or wherever to determine whether I get to to travel there. I want to be the person who decides. As much as I love cruising, the best way to do that is land-based vacations.

 

Correct. Which is why when I finally get to visit Egypt it wont be on a cruise ship.

[Miaminice]

as a example: german federal foreign office said

 

.....

 

this is a very strong advice from our government : do not go there.....

 

That is not correct:

 

1. The German ministry of foreign affairs issued a travel advisory NOT a travel warning!

 

2. The exact wording is: Increased caution is advised when travelling to Istanbul.

 

There is no advise saying not to go there issued by the German government or foreign affairs office!

 

Please stick to the facts!

Edited August 28, 2015 by Miaminice

[LA_Design]

Out of curiosity, I went to Celebrity's UK website to look at the language regarding changes. The language is set forth below. Although it appears that UK customers have more rights than US customers under certain circumstances, they do not appear to have more rights here, since the changes that have been made appear to fall under the definition of a minor change.

 

 

 

 

 

5.5 Can you change or cancel my holiday?

 

Occasionally, we have to make changes to the website and other details both before, and after, bookings have been confirmed and, even more rarely, cancel confirmed bookings. There may be a requirement to carry out maintenance/ building works on your cruise. Where the works are likely to seriously impair your holiday, we will notify you as soon as possible. Occasionally we may also be forced to cancel a U.S. back to back cruise due to local legal restrictions preventing us from allowing you to travel on this basis but will endeavour to advise you promptly after making such a booking if this is necessary (see Before You Sail, What about Consecutive Cruises?). Whilst we always endeavour to avoid changes and cancellations, we must reserve the right to do so. If we have to make a significant change or cancel, we will tell you as soon as possible. If there is time to do so before departure, we will offer you the choice of the following options:-

 

 

 

(a) (for significant changes) accepting the changed arrangements or

 

 

 

(b) purchasing an alternative holiday from us, of a similar standard to that originally booked if available. We will offer you at least one alternative holiday of equivalent or higher standard for which you will not be asked to pay any more than the price of the original holiday. If this holiday is in fact cheaper than the original one, we will refund the price difference. If you do not wish to accept the holiday we specifically offer you, you may choose any of our other then available holidays. You must pay the applicable price of any such holiday. This will mean you paying more if it is more expensive or receiving a refund if it is cheaper.

 

 

 

© cancelling or accepting the cancellation in which case you will receive a full and quick refund of all monies you have paid to us.

 

 

 

Please note, the above options are not available where any change made is a minor one. What is a significant change? A significant change is a change to your confirmed holiday, which we can reasonably expect will have a significant effect on it. Examples of significant and minor (defined below) changes are as follows: Significant change: Examples include a change from two days port of calls to two days sailing instead; a change in UK departure airport (excluding changes between local airports) and a change in the time of your outbound flight by more than 12 hours on a 14 night holiday. Minor change: Examples include a change from one port of call to another; a change from one day’s port of call to one days sailing; a change in timings for any port(s) of call but the ship still calls at all confirmed ports; a change in order of ports that are visited; and a change in the time of your departure or return flight that is less than 12 hours on a 14 night holiday. Very rarely, we may be forced by “force majeure” (see section 5.10) to change or terminate your holiday after departure but before the scheduled end of your time away. This is extremely unlikely but if this situation does occur, we regret we will be unable to make any refunds (unless we obtain any refunds from our suppliers), pay you any compensation or meet any costs or expenses you incur as a result.

 

 

Sorry but you have missed the point I made in an earlier post.

 

Celeb UK 's 'Contract' does not describe a Passengers rights, merely what the Company thinks it can impose.

 

The UK/European Consumer Laws mean that Courts ignore the 'contract' and decide what is 'reasonable'. From a consumer perspective it is hardly worth even reading the Celeb. publication.

 

Mind you we do pay quite a bit more than our friends in North America

Edited August 28, 2015 by LA_Design

[Miaminice]

We are on the cruise on August 31 and we are affected by the changes... and yes, we are disappointed and not thrilled about Athens as a replacement for the overnight at all.

 

For us, too, Istanbul was THE reason to book this cruise and I would still not have a problem to go to Istanbul.

 

HOWEVER, I fully understand that Celebrity has the responsibility for over 3,000 people on board and my own personal sentiment is not the issue.

 

Istanbul was cancelled because of an excisting risk. There is no denying the risk - we can argue about the probabilitiy and chances, but not about the risk.

How much risk do you want them to take?!

 

I will and would never ever ask for compensation because Celebrity or any other cruiseline acted accordingly.

 

Asking for compensations in these situations will only make them hesitate in a similar situation in the future. Until something really happens...

Edited August 28, 2015 by Miaminice

[Cruiseline Virgin]

So why Celebrity isn't canceling half of the Caribbean ports if safety is so important?

 

Puerto Rico, Mexico both countries are run over by drug cartels, a tourist can easily get in the lines of fire :confused:

[nordski]

 

HOWEVER, I fully understand that Celebrity has the responsibility for over 3,000 people on board and my own personal sentiment is not the issue.

 

Istanbul was cancelled because of an excisting risk. There is no denying the risk - we can argue about the probabilitiy and chances, but not about the risk.

How much risk do you want them to take?!

 

 

Excellent points.

 

Personally, I wouldn't want the responsibility to make the decision for 3,000 especially if a mistake could be devastating. Thus, absent that responsibility, I try not to be an "armchair executive".

 

I hope that the November election in Turkey provides clarity and order for the citizens of that wonderful nation. Unfortunately Mr. Erdogan seems to want to ride the twin dragons of foreign diversions and nationalism to achieve success.

[Evangaline]

I counted 14 cruise lines from mainstream to lite luxe that are still calling on Istanbul and not cancelling their ports of call. The only exception is Costa who are jumpy because of their faux pas in Tunisia. Not sure why Celebrity is following Costa's cue. Costa has never be known for its judgement skills.

[Pipo]

I counted 14 cruise lines from mainstream to lite luxe that are still calling on Istanbul and not cancelling their ports of call. The only exception is Costa who are jumpy because of their faux pas in Tunisia. Not sure why Celebrity is following Costa's cue. Costa has never be known for its judgement skills.

 

 

Azamara is calling not only Istanbul, but other three ports in Turkey. And no changes reported so far on the "rich's people" ships. I don't see any difference on stoping four times in a single coast against just one overnight. No consistency among sister companies.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Pipo

[nordski]

Azamara is calling not only Istanbul, but other three ports in Turkey. And no changes reported so far on the "rich's people" ships. I don't see any difference on stoping four times in a single coast against just one overnight. No consistency among sister companies.

 

 

You make several good points, but the cruises are at the end of September and in October and, being on one of them, we have adjusted our plans to create some flexibility for a possible change at that point.

 

Since Istanbul is the embarkation port for these cruises, alterations in that aspect would create serious issues. However, we would not be shocked if one or other of the remaining Turkish ports is cancelled. We also are to visit Lesvos, and the refugee issues there have already led to cancellation of an earlier Journey visit.

 

Contact with the Azamara office tells us it is "early days" yet in deciding if changes will be made.

 

And it is exciting to be grouped with the "rich people" :)

[Scrappytraveller]

Bottom line is that Celebrity doesn't need to exercise an "abundance of caution" for its passengers before and after their cruise, since some cruises will still begin and end in Istanbul. :rolleyes:

What they care about is the bad PR (and maybe legal liability) that would arise from something happening on a ship excursion.

Bad things happen all over the world. An occasional incident in a big city does not make it unsafe for all. If it did, nobody would be going to Boston, New York, Paris, Copenhagen.... the list is extensive.

[cruiserchuck]

Sorry but you have missed the point I made in an earlier post.

 

Celeb UK 's 'Contract' does not describe a Passengers rights, merely what the Company thinks it can impose.

 

The UK/European Consumer Laws mean that Courts ignore the 'contract' and decide what is 'reasonable'. From a consumer perspective it is hardly worth even reading the Celeb. publication.

 

Mind you we do pay quite a bit more than our friends in North America

 

So is it your understanding that someone from the UK could cancel and get a full refund due to the change in the itinerary here?

 

I also checked prices on the UK site for the October 12 cruise that I was thinking about booking, and the prices are about 50% more than the prices on the US website.

[nordski]

Bottom line is that Celebrity doesn't need to exercise an "abundance of caution" for its passengers before and after their cruise, since some cruises will still begin and end in Istanbul. :rolleyes:

What they care about is the bad PR (and maybe legal liability) that would arise from something happening on a ship excursion.

Bad things happen all over the world. An occasional incident in a big city does not make it unsafe for all. If it did, nobody would be going to Boston, New York, Paris, Copenhagen.... the list is extensive.

 

Not certain I fully understand your point, but in our case we are using Choice Air and the ship's transfers, as I imagine will others, so I expect that they will still need to exercise an "abundance of caution" since they would not avoid bad PR nor potential liability if, heaven forbid, something happened. Since they are a corporate entity, and owe a duty to shareholders as well as to us, we are not surprised by either of those aforementioned concerns.

 

I agree that "occasional acts" do not make cities unsafe. Therefore, I use the travel advisories of Canada, the USA and the UK as a guide. By my reading, all of them postulate a more serious concern re: Istanbul. Perhaps other "experts" disagree.

 

Finally, we truly enjoyed our visit to Istanbul in May. However, since then Erdogan has joined the "war" on ISIS, upped the nationalist conflict with the Kurds, and called another election to attempt to "reform" the constitution (reforms that will upset parties on the left). it's difficult for us to think that the situation hasn't significantly changed. Others again certainly disagree, but to us it is a confluence of serious issues, of which even one would be enough to raise concerns.

 

My hope is that Erdogan loses this game.

[ptrpanpens]

We are on the cruise on August 31 and we are affected by the changes... and yes, we are disappointed and not thrilled about Athens as a replacement for the overnight at all.

 

For us, too, Istanbul was THE reason to book this cruise and I would still not have a problem to go to Istanbul.

 

HOWEVER, I fully understand that Celebrity has the responsibility for over 3,000 people on board and my own personal sentiment is not the issue.

 

Istanbul was cancelled because of an excisting risk. There is no denying the risk - we can argue about the probabilitiy and chances, but not about the risk.

How much risk do you want them to take?!

 

I will and would never ever ask for compensation because Celebrity or any other cruiseline acted accordingly.

 

Asking for compensations in these situations will only make them hesitate in a similar situation in the future. Until something really happens...

 

Miaminice,

 

So disappointed you will miss Istanbul this time as I was selfishly looking forward to your review with photos! But I will enjoy the review anyway, even with Athens I am sure it will be outstanding.

 

Perhaps you should just travel there for a few days on your own since you live so close, as I would recommend for everyone. Overnight is way too short for a city like Istanbul and you may just be frustrated at not having enough time there. At least a week is required there anyway, IMO especially if you have any interest in Byzantine and Ottoman history.:)

[LA_Design]

So is it your understanding that someone from the UK could cancel and get a full refund due to the change in the itinerary here?

 

 

 

I also checked prices on the UK site for the October 12 cruise that I was thinking about booking, and the prices are about 50% more than the prices on the US website.

 

 

That would depend upon whether a 'material change' had happened and whether it was reasonable. I would be confident that a passenger who had booked a cruise with an overnight in Istanbul could easily demonstrate that it was a main feature of the Cruise. Given that other Cruise lines and their own ships are still visiting I believe Celebrity would struggle to convince a Court that they were acting reasonably in not offering a refund . HOWEVER, if Celebrity refuse a refund the passenger(s) concerned would need to launch a legal action which can be costly.

 

As you appear to be only thinking about booking now then I cannot see your issue as Celebrity have said its no longer an overnight in Istanbul ?

[LA_Design]

Not certain I fully understand your point, but in our case we are using Choice Air and the ship's transfers, as I imagine will others, so I expect that they will still need to exercise an "abundance of caution" since they would not avoid bad PR nor potential liability if, heaven forbid, something happened. Since they are a corporate entity, and owe a duty to shareholders as well as to us, we are not surprised by either of those aforementioned concerns.

 

 

 

I agree that "occasional acts" do not make cities unsafe. Therefore, I use the travel advisories of Canada, the USA and the UK as a guide. By my reading, all of them postulate a more serious concern re: Istanbul. Perhaps other "experts" disagree.

 

 

 

Finally, we truly enjoyed our visit to Istanbul in May. However, since then Erdogan has joined the "war" on ISIS, upped the nationalist conflict with the Kurds, and called another election to attempt to "reform" the constitution (reforms that will upset parties on the left). it's difficult for us to think that the situation hasn't significantly changed. Others again certainly disagree, but to us it is a confluence of serious issues, of which even one would be enough to raise concerns.

 

 

 

My hope is that Erdogan loses this game.

 

 

Quite . It's not as if one could be harmed staying at home in the safety of the UK or the USA. No-one ever is killed /seriously injured by terrorist attacks there. ?

 

try telling that to relatives of 7/7 or 9/11 . Try telling that to the victims of the Glasgow run-away bin lorry or the tragic events of last weekend when a jet crashed into a main road near London. And of course we never hear of anyone being shot in the USA now do we.

[cruiserchuck]

That would depend upon whether a 'material change' had happened and whether it was reasonable. I would be confident that a passenger who had booked a cruise with an overnight in Istanbul could easily demonstrate that it was a main feature of the Cruise. Given that other Cruise lines and their own ships are still visiting I believe Celebrity would struggle to convince a Court that they were acting reasonably in not offering a refund . HOWEVER, if Celebrity refuse a refund the passenger(s) concerned would need to launch a legal action which can be costly.

 

As you appear to be only thinking about booking now then I cannot see your issue as Celebrity have said its no longer an overnight in Istanbul ?

 

So it sounds like things may be the same here in California as in the UK. We generally have strong consumer protection laws, but companies often do not comply with them, and it is often not cost effective to try to do something about it. Additionally, Celebrity's contract in the US mandates that you sue them in Florida. The US Supreme Court has upheld such choice of venue clauses for cruise lines, so it is extra hard for most people to pursue action against cruise lines, when they may live thousands of miles from Florida.

 

I am interested in the UK vs. US remedies only as a matter of general interest. I had put a 24 hour hold on the October 12 cruise on the same day the itinerary change for the August cruise was announced. Due to the uncertainty about Istanbul on the October cruise, I did not complete the booking. We are still trying to decide if we want to do the cruise without Istanbul.

[nordski]

Quite . It's not as if one could be harmed staying at home in the safety of the UK or the USA. No-one ever is killed /seriously injured by terrorist attacks there. ?

 

try telling that to relatives of 7/7 or 9/11 . Try telling that to the victims of the Glasgow run-away bin lorry or the tragic events of last weekend when a jet crashed into a main road near London. And of course we never hear of anyone being shot in the USA now do we.

 

 

Apparently my communication skills have failed.

 

I did not think I argued that lives could not be lost in the most relatively innocuous circumstances such as an air show or on a highway. I did argue that I use travel advisories as a guide say, for example, I decided to visit the southern border of Turkey. In the same vein I consider their assessment of conditions in the entire nation.

 

Also I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to tell victims of tragedy anything.

 

My comments re: the political state in Turkey reflected upon changes that have taken place since this spring. Those changes are real; if my analysis of their impact is faulty, well I would be pleased.

[Ex-Airbalancer]

I bet it was the insurance companies that told Celebrity that they would not insure the ship if they went there

[LA_Design]

So it sounds like things may be the same here in California as in the UK. We generally have strong consumer protection laws, but companies often do not comply with them, and it is often not cost effective to try to do something about it. Additionally, Celebrity's contract in the US mandates that you sue them in Florida. The US Supreme Court has upheld such choice of venue clauses for cruise lines, so it is extra hard for most people to pursue action against cruise lines, when they may live thousands of miles from Florida.

 

 

 

I am interested in the UK vs. US remedies only as a matter of general interest. I had put a 24 hour hold on the October 12 cruise on the same day the itinerary change for the August cruise was announced. Due to the uncertainty about Istanbul on the October cruise, I did not complete the booking. We are still trying to decide if we want to do the cruise without Istanbul.

 

 

It is interesting over here that many Companies have tried the bully boy tactics over the consumer and have fallen foul of the Courts , notably the airlines. Most notably Ryanair , notoriously bad for customer care. These companies have had to pay out millions in compensation.

 

Recently a cruise line paid out compensation when a cruise was curtailed by a day because of a norovirus outbreak. Presumably the cruise line realised that the passengers were organised enough to take legal action and backed off. It would only take one passenger to be a Lawyer for BullyBoy tactics to backfire on a Company such as Celebrity.

 

I have done an Istanbul overnight cruise 3 times now. Without Istanbul it would have to be a lot cheaper fir me to book. But everyone is different.

 

An overnight in San Diego would appeal to me though [emoji41]. Playing Torrey Pines again would be the makings of s great trip .

[cruisemom42]

I bet it was the insurance companies that told Celebrity that they would not insure the ship if they went there

 

Wouldn't one think that all ships would stop going, if that were the case?

[leleroma]

Insurance companies.... lol

[Mrs Cupcake]

I'm sailing on the Equinox on 19 September, I've not heard that we are not starting in Istanbul yet, has anybody else heard anything please?