Diamond Princess passenger "tested positive for Wuhan coronavirus"

[SunNFunCruzer]

16 minutes ago, npcl said:

Balcony is considered to provide enough separation between cabins with dividers as long as they don't lean around then to talk with neighbors. they should also leave masks on.

 

But are they leaving their masks on when they are on, what they perceive to be, a private balcony getting "fresh" air?

 

Anyone who has cruised in a balcony cabin has smelled the smoke of cigarette/cigar whether smoking was allowed or not. Were they smelling the exhaled smoke or the smoke from the burning end of the cigar/cigarette?  I don't believe that the balcony partition is a full proof barrier to the transmission of this nasty virus.  It can travel via sneeze or potentially just via collection in water droplets in air.  It seems very aggressive, and I would take aggressive measures if I were Princess/the US Govt/Japanese Govt/Airlines/WHO, etc  

[npcl]

7 minutes ago, kent9xxx1 said:

650 hospitas.  Not 650 beds.  They somehow managed to make room for 135+ and more to come.  Yeah, they can handle a bit more than you think they can.  

 

Actually some of those 135 have been sent outside of Tokyo to other prefectures according to published news articles. So the 135 has used up a substantial portion of their isolation rooms.

[chipmaster]

41 minutes ago, dog said:

The crew are not confined to cabins, not always wearing masks. 

 

You think the crew are walking around in their crowded quarters off shift with mask and full hasmat protection?

 

THis is like asking if the doctors in the lounge are wearing their mask and hasmat protection, likely not.  Remember who these people are, the are mostly working on minimum wages for tips and how much are they going to get on this segment.   They like the passengers can't wait for the quarantine to be lifted and get to their next gig and make some money

[Psoque]

9 minutes ago, kent9xxx1 said:

so why didn’t it provide assistance to the Westerdam being one of the few countries nearby that can provide assistance?  

What Westerdam needs is a port that is open, so that their passengers can disembark and can go home, obviously it does not need a quarantine.  I am not sure what other assistance Westerdam need.  Obviously, if they were in fact running out of fuel and food, and if they were in Japanese waters, the Japanese government would have done something to help them.

[npcl]

1 minute ago, SunNFunCruzer said:

 

But are they leaving their masks on when they are on, what they perceive to be, a private balcony getting "fresh" air?

 

Anyone who has cruised in a balcony cabin has smelled the smoke of cigarette/cigar whether smoking was allowed or not. Were they smelling the exhaled smoke or the smoke from the burning end of the cigar/cigarette?  I don't believe that the balcony partition is a full proof barrier to the transmission of this nasty virus.  It can travel via sneeze or potentially just via collection in water droplets in air.  It seems very aggressive, and I would take aggressive measures if I were Princess/the US Govt/Japanese Govt/Airlines/WHO, etc  

Usually for an illness like this 3-6 feet separation is considered adaquate, especially with a barrier in between since they are not coughing or sneezing into the direction of other guests. In another 8 days we shall see.

[Aus Traveller]

3 hours ago, kent9xxx1 said:

As for those who kept on harping on that it puts bus drivers at risk.  Well, I suppose handling 135+ actually infected and actively spreading isn't risky.  They still don't get that those bus drivers still have to handle them anyway.   

With respect, you are missing a major point. 🙂The 135 people with the virus were taken away in ambulances with the para medics in protective gear. If the remainder of the people on the ship (around 3,550 people) were to be moved, it would not be possible logistically to move them one at a time in ambulances with the para medics in protective gear.

[Aus Traveller]

3 hours ago, TNTLAMB said:

The japanese are supplying the stores.

 

Yes, and we do not know who is preparing the food. It could be crew wearing masks and it could be people brought on board for the purpose. I have not seen where this has been announced.

[chipmaster]

46 minutes ago, generichandle said:

Of course not. That is the point of the 14-day quarantine, to let the estimated incubation period run it's course, Presumably, those testing positive now are those who got it a week before the quarantine, so two weeks and symptoms. When those who got it just before quarantine, or didn't, run their whole 14 day course, hopefully, the rest were not exposed. 

 

Remember when they do a test the are testing for the antibodies, thus testing before you have symptoms like the 3K on the ship is a terrible waste, no symptoms like fever, cough etc. means your body doesn't know it got invaded.    Even once invaded the current assumption is 14 days before your immune system discovers it was attacked and starts the battle with antibodies, inflamation etc.etc. at that point a test is effective.  

 

Currently when they release whom ever they release it is almost certain there will be an asymptomatic carrier with no reaction and thus no way to test that will go off and to some distant corner of the world and stat an infection, that is how infections disease escape, always has and will.

Edited February 10, 2020 by chipmaster

[SunNFunCruzer]

3 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

Oh I know they wouldn’t do that.  But they could if they truly cared more about their “teammates “ as much as Jan claimed. But I know Jan cares more about profit than her “teammates “

 

 

I think if the mortality rate were higher, public pressure would necessitate a lot of extreme measures.  Right now, people from the Diamond are uncomfortable.  IF the virus kills and/or starts killing in substantial numbers, I believe Princess AND other cruiselines would come to the aid of affected passengers and would donate ships to start to spread people out. 

 

IMO it's premature for such extreme measures. 

 

This is, afterall, a business and anyone who cruises knows there is some health risk involved in being in a confined space with lots of people and limited resources.  That's the risk reward/calculation I am trying to make right now for March.

[npcl]

14 minutes ago, kent9xxx1 said:

so why didn’t it provide assistance to the Westerdam being one of the few countries nearby that can provide assistance?  

Guam  (A US territory) also declined the Westerdam from terminating there.

[Psoque]

2 minutes ago, bluesea321 said:

 

That is not correct.

"Below decks, the situation is different. There, hundreds of crew members are eating, living and working elbow to elbow as they try to keep life as comfortable as possible for those above. They line up for simple buffet meals and then sit down together to eat. Bathrooms are shared by up to four people, and cabins often by two."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/10/business/coronavirus-japan-cruise-ship.html

Actually, you are both right.  The entire ship, with both the passengers and the crew are quarantined from the rest of the world.  Also, there is a secondary measure, passengers in individual cabins are quarantined (the best they can) from passengers from other cabins.

[Aus Traveller]

1 hour ago, SunNFunCruzer said:

 

I posted about this last night.  It's my understanding that the virus can lay dormant for up to 14 days in a person's system (and there are some UK outlets reporting up to 23 days -- but I cannot vouch for their credibility *Independent + Daily Mail*). Imagine a husband and wife are together in a cabin and the wife doesn't start showing symptoms until the 12th-14th day, at which point she has a fever and starts coughing, spreading virus droplets in the cabin. The husband could then, theoretically, inhale a droplet of the virus and become infected on her 12th-14th day. If it then takes him 12-14 days to show symptoms, you'd need a 28-30 day quarantine to make sure that everyone was clear.  

 

It has been stated that the general quarantine will end on 19th February, but for people who have been in close contact with someone who has tested positive, the quarantine will be extended. I take that to mean that if one person in the cabin has tested positive, the partner's 14-day quarantine 'clock' will start ticking from their last contact.

 

Re the comments about the balcony divider being open - It is highly likely that was open before the quarantine was put in place and it was decided that it would be left like that. I believe that the steward has to uses a special tool to open the balcony divider. If this was not the case, any passenger on any ship would be able to access adjoining cabins, or a large number of cabins. That would be a security nightmare. I don't believe it can happen.

[Aus Traveller]

1 hour ago, Psoque said:

This is not true.  If Japan wanted to just "protect Japan," they could have just given Diamond Princess more fuel and asked the ship to get the heck out of the Japanese waters.  The quarantine is to protect the rest of the world, not just Japan.  For that matter, they could have just asked them to go to Guam or somewhere and have them deal with the problem.  Despite your assumption, Japan is doing this as a service to the international community.

Going on what happened with the Westerdam, Guam would not have accepted the Diamond Princess. Guam wouldn't accept a ship that had no serious risk of infections on board, so they certainly would not have accepted the Diamond.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Aus Traveller

[Psoque]

Just now, Aus Traveller said:

Going on what happened with the Westerdam, Guam would not have accepted the Diamond Princess.

I was saying that if the US passengers wanted to be repatriated, they could have asked Guam to let them disembark there, but that became impossible.  I'm not sure about the time line, and that's not my point.  My point is that the point of quarantine is not just to protect Japan.

[bluesea321]

56 minutes ago, Farts said:

Yea, if you filled up all those beds with quarantined ppl, then the hospital system would grind a halt. 

 

Not quite. A study by the NIH stated that there were 1,583,073 hospital beds in Japan. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4807930/

[kent9xxx1]

12 minutes ago, npcl said:

Guam  (A US territory) also declined the Westerdam from terminating there.

 

US already had a lock down in place.  And you are comparing Guam to Tokyo?  Can Guam handle this kind of large scale infection?

[ace2542]

2 minutes ago, Psoque said:

I was saying that if the US passengers wanted to be repatriated, they could have asked Guam to let them disembark there, but that became impossible.  I'm not sure about the time line, and that's not my point.  My point is that the point of quarantine is not just to protect Japan.

All passengers should have been repatriated on a nationality by nationality basis and put in quarantine in their home country and there would not now be 135 infected people on that ship. The infection levels will only rise on the diamond.

[Outerdog]

8 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

I believe that the steward has to uses a special tool to open the balcony divider. If this was not the case, any passenger on any ship would be able to access adjoining cabins, or a large number of cabins. That would be a security nightmare. I don't believe it can happen.

 

The dividers are trivial to open on most ships -- particularly those of that area. You can open them with a bottle opener, nail clippers, or similar. Hell, I've read reports of them being opened with wooden stir sticks.

 

Crew would have to enter the cabins to close them -- you're right, it was probably decided it simply wasn't worth the risk to do so.

 

[generichandle]

21 minutes ago, chipmaster said:

 

Remember when they do a test the are testing for the antibodies, thus testing before you have symptoms like the 3K on the ship is a terrible waste, no symptoms like fever, cough etc. means your body doesn't know it got invaded.    Even once invaded the current assumption is 14 days before your immune system discovers it was attacked and starts the battle with antibodies, inflamation etc.etc. at that point a test is effective.  

 

Currently when they release whom ever they release it is almost certain there will be an asymptomatic carrier with no reaction and thus no way to test that will go off and to some distant corner of the world and stat an infection, that is how infections disease escape, always has and will.

Yep, 'Corona Mary" is indeed a strong possibility. But DP is still the best testing facility in the World. I suspect they MUST end the quarantine at 14-days, because otherwise, they cannot test their hypothesis at all. We all hope it is close to accurate, no?

[clskinsfan]

30 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

Have you seen the video taken in one of the Chinese pop-up hospitals? 20 cots in a room with only about two feet between the cots. Portable toilets are outside the building 200 metres away. A person there reported that there is no hot water and no treatment offered. I would rather stay on the Diamond Princess with my own space, my own bathroom and some activities such as TV/movies etc available.

And that is not even a hospital. It is a quarantine facility only. There is a video on the Tube with a worker there saying if you cant care for yourself do not go there. It is a horrible situation in China. And now with the holiday over it is going to get worse unfortunately.

[bluesea321]

1 hour ago, Kmkub said:

The cabin is, for all intents and purposes, an oxygen tent. The cabins do not share oxygen. If you are in an oxygen tent in the hospital, they still have to lift the tent to feed you. Similar to opening the door with a mask for a very short time to get food.

 

Hospital isolation wards are kept at negative pressure. Cruise ship cabins are kept at positive pressure due to fire code restrictions. What this means is that every time a cabin door is opened (for meals, linens, a walk on the deck, etc.) a certain volume of cabin air moves into the hallway contaminating the zone/area air system. There is little if anything Princess can do about that. A cabin is not an isolation room, it may be the best they can do on a ship but don't confuse it with a hospital.

[ace2542]

3 minutes ago, SunNFunCruzer said:

 

THIS IS RIDICULOUS.  💀

What is ridiculous is just testing a handful of people and giving the rest of a thermometer and asking them to self report if they have a temp above 38.6. And taking quarantined persons like Rebecca Frasure who is has had no treatment of any kind despite the diagnosis. Japan is woefully unprepared for the corona to hit Tokyo and it likely will just like China.

[Aus Traveller]

48 minutes ago, kent9xxx1 said:

so why didn’t it provide assistance to the Westerdam being one of the few countries nearby that can provide assistance?  

Westerdam didn't need assistance. They wanted to dock in Yokohama as their scheduled port of call. Japan had decided to close their ports for cruise ship visits.

[npcl]

17 minutes ago, bluesea321 said:

 

Not quite. A study by the NIH stated that there were 1,583,073 hospital beds in Japan. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4807930/

hospital beds is not the same as isolation rooms. I will see what I can find for Japan but I do have some numbers for HID rooms in the US and Europe.

 

but from a 2017 paper on the capacity of the US hospital system (931,000 hospital beds in 2017) you get:

 

Accounting for a small margin of error, an estimate of 400 high-consequence infectious disease airborne isolation beds is a reasonable approximation for our existing national capacity under nearly ideal conditions.

 

In Europe a survey in 2018 came up with approximately 1790 for all of Europe in 220 hospitals.

 

There have been very limited infectious outbreaks for many years.  Why would you expect to build very expensive infectious disease isolation rooms that are not heavily used.

 

If you applied the US percentage of HID to total hospital beds to Japan you would get maybe 680 HID rooms in Japan.

Edited February 10, 2020 by npcl

[SunNFunCruzer]

1 minute ago, ace2542 said:

What is ridiculous is just testing a handful of people and giving the rest of a thermometer and asking them to self report if they have a temp above 38.6. And taking quarantined persons like Rebecca Frasure who is has had no treatment of any kind despite the diagnosis. Japan is woefully unprepared for the corona to hit Tokyo and it likely will just like China.

 

They don't have enough test kits.  Anywhere in the World.  Even here in the great US of A.  

 

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/p0206-coronavirus-diagnostic-test-kits.html

 

I just wanted to make sure that someone stood up to what I perceive as hate speech against a country and its citizens.  I believe Japan IS helping America and the rest of the world right now. 

 

I understand people are frustrated and afraid... it'd be insane not to be. But WHO stands for WORLD Health Organization -- we are a Global Society now, and, sadly, for better or worse, we're all in this together. We must partner with China, even if China is to "blame" b/c of lax health and safety regulations and lack of accurate reporting at initial outbreak. Karma is a boomerang and Chinese Society is paying dearly for the poor decisions made by those at the top.