Cruising Restart

[Fouremco]

50 minutes ago, markeb said:

Both numbers have utility for totally different purposes.

Exactly. That was the whole point of my question posed to @Threedrones.

[Georgia_Peaches]

1 hour ago, hcat said:

We heard there is more  support money  for Covid cases so many who die from other causes get  added  to Covid "#s.

 

Active cases and recoveries  are good indicators of the  curent situation.

This is 100% accurate according to my daughter who is a clinical pharmacist in our local hospital.  There is a certain stipend of money attached to any death that says COVID on the certificate.  Before the pandemic, a heart attack was just a heart attack.  Now, a heart attack is a heart attack due to COVID.  

 

The numbers can be manipulated any way someone wants them to be....which is why I no longer look at them.

My DH told me that he read that some numbers are beginning to flatten in some US hot spots.  These days, I find it hard to believe even the good news...everyone has an agenda so we will never really know the truth.

 

Wow...when did I become so cynical?  😕

[NMTraveller]

7 hours ago, hvbaskey said:

A good article from Cruise Critic Adam Coulter, UK Managing Editor

CLIA: More European Countries Allow Cruising Restart; No Date Yet for U.S. Cruising to Resume

 

 

The German cruises to no where.  No thanks.  And you call this a cruise?  More like a floating hotel room.

[gr8life]

5 hours ago, FeliciaLee said:

Thanks, now I see it. I wonder what happened with Chili.

They are going bankrupt.

[markeb]

11 minutes ago, Georgia_Peaches said:

This is 100% accurate according to my daughter who is a clinical pharmacist in our local hospital.  There is a certain stipend of money attached to any death that says COVID on the certificate.  Before the pandemic, a heart attack was just a heart attack.  Now, a heart attack is a heart attack due to COVID.  

 

The numbers can be manipulated any way someone wants them to be....which is why I no longer look at them.

My DH told me that he read that some numbers are beginning to flatten in some US hot spots.  These days, I find it hard to believe even the good news...everyone has an agenda so we will never really know the truth.

 

Wow...when did I become so cynical?  😕

 

Snopes: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/medicare-hospitals-covid-patients/

 

Payments are based on level of care. There may or may not be an lower burden of proof for supporting the level of care with an ICD-9 code for COVID19, but putting someone on a ventilator in the ICU for an extended period of time costs money. Snopes rates this as mixed. If there's no care (acute death due to an MI, even with a COVID19 diagnosis), there isn't going to be a payout. If you survive the acute MI and have a COVID19 diagnosis, the hospital probably has a lower burden for justifying extended ICU care. But they get paid for care provided.

[Georgia_Peaches]

1 minute ago, markeb said:

 

Snopes: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/medicare-hospitals-covid-patients/

 

Payments are based on level of care. There may or may not be an lower burden of proof for supporting the level of care with an ICD-9 code for COVID19, but putting someone on a ventilator in the ICU for an extended period of time costs money. Snopes rates this as mixed. If there's no care (acute death due to an MI, even with a COVID19 diagnosis), there isn't going to be a payout. If you survive the acute MI and have a COVID19 diagnosis, the hospital probably has a lower burden for justifying extended ICU care. But they get paid for care provided.

Even if Snopes if correct about the hospital payout, it would still impact the reported numbers with/without the $$.

A hospital that reports a death such as a heart attack under COVID may not get the money...after attempting to...but they would still report it as a COVID related death, no?  Thus, manipulating the numbers.

[markeb]

11 minutes ago, Georgia_Peaches said:

Even if Snopes if correct about the hospital payout, it would still impact the reported numbers with/without the $$.

A hospital that reports a death such as a heart attack under COVID may not get the money...after attempting to...but they would still report it as a COVID related death, no?  Thus, manipulating the numbers.

 

You typically would list all contributing causes on a death certificate. That's not my area of expertise in epidemiology, and I think there's state-to-state variation. There are actually good (and bad) epidemiological reasons at this point to ensure COVID is listed if it's a contributing cause of death (at least presumptively). Without that, with electronic records, it would be incredibly difficult to actually do the retrospective studies that are going to need to happen to understand this event. So getting it on the death certificate is incredibly important for the future. But, it also confuses the crap out of people now, which isn't useful.

 

I will once again say we are dealing with the first pandemic of the social media age, and frankly epidemiology was not prepared for that, and there has not been a good voice performing strategic communication to make those points. That may be a function of the social media age, and isn't really a slam on any agency or the government overall. I'd expect that to come out of the CDC in the US, but they've historically been a very good technical and scientific agency, and strategic communication, especially in this day and age, seems to be something new to them. They'll learn...

Edited July 22, 2020 by markeb
Clarity

[Georgia_Peaches]

12 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

You typically would list all contributing causes on a death certificate. That's not my area of expertise in epidemiology, and I think there's state-to-state variation. There are actually good (and bad) epidemiological reasons at this point to ensure COVID is listed if it's a contributing cause of death (at least presumptively). Without that, with electronic records, it would be incredibly difficult to actually do the retrospective studies that are going to need to happen to understand this event. So getting it on the death certificate is incredibly important for the future. But, it also confuses the crap out of people now, which isn't useful.

 

I will once again say we are dealing with the first pandemic of the social media age, and frankly epidemiology was not prepared for that, and there has not been a good voice performing strategic communication to make those points. That may be a function of the social media age, and isn't really a slam on any agency or the government overall. I'd expect that to come out of the CDC in the US, but they've historically been a very good technical and scientific agency, and strategic communication, especially in this day and age, seems to be something new to them. They'll learn...

Thank you for taking the time to explain.  I does make more sense.  

Stay well!

[ChucktownSteve]

Headline NYT: Man eaten by shark died from Covid-19! (for those who don't realize it, this is a joke based in some truth)

 

In U.S. hospitals if you died and happen to have covid-19, you're listed as dying from the virus. The hospitals receive federal monies for Covid deaths.  Thus the incentive to list that as the cause of death.  There is a huge difference between dying with Covid and dying from covid.

 

Believe whatever numbers you wish. They're all true. You read it on the internet and those releasing figures don't have any agendas.

Edited July 22, 2020 by ChucktownSteve

[Denny01]

I think I’ll shut up and just keep reading Markeb’s posts!!  

 

But one quick note: My personal guess is if the guy’s death who got ‘eaten’ by a shark was signed off as COVID-19.....I’d say that is a Very Odd name for a Shark!!!  I did say I’d respond to either “Neat” or “Crazy” posts.....I’ll let you all guess which one that post is that’s about them signing COVID as the cause of death for a guy ‘eaten’ by a shark!

 

Den

[hvbaskey]

Let’s get back to the Original Post *please* of “Cruising Restart” - there’s an article posted by a Cruise Critic Editor - let’s discuss!

 

As mentioned in the last part of the article, there has been NO RESTART in US Ports of Call with the no-sail order being extended until September 30th (I’m sure 99% of readers on Cruise Critic are aware of that).

 

Please let’s get back to the article shared and leave out the current environment of the United States, their Leadership (and response) and mortality numbers - there are plenty of threads to discuss that elsewhere.

 

FROM the article posted:  between Germany and Norway IF you were eligible, would you be interested?

for me - it would be NO to Germany’s Cruises to Nowhere, but YES to Norway’s Coastal Cruises

Germany:  Cruises to Nowhere restarted for German Residents
The cruises are limited -- "ships leaving Germany, returning to Germany, not stopping anywhere in between, taking only German customers," Goldstein said.  "Of course, this is incredibly restrictive compared to what we knew six months ago, but a huge advance over nothing happening at all."

 

TUI Cruises is due to restart July 24 with a cruise to nowhere on Mein Schiff 2 and AIDAperla will restart on August 5. The latter represents the first return to cruising from one of the "big three" cruising companies, as AIDA is a German cruise line owned by Carnival Corporation.

 

Norway: - coastal cruising resumed for Norwegian Residents

Though not an EU member, Norway works closely with EU bodies, and restarted coastal cruising on Hurtigruten on June 16.

[Prost Seattle]

So are some of you who think the numbers are inflated think this isn’t a big deal?  Life should return to normal?  I don’t understand the thought process here. 

[markeb]

19 minutes ago, Denny01 said:

I think I’ll shut up and just keep reading Markeb’s posts!!  

 

But one quick note: My personal guess is if the guy’s death who got ‘eaten’ by a shark was signed off as COVID-19.....I’d say that is a Very Odd name for a Shark!!!  I did say I’d respond to either “Neat” or “Crazy” posts.....I’ll let you all guess which one that post is that’s about them signing COVID as the cause of death for a guy ‘eaten’ by a shark!

 

Den

 

Remember those "thank you for your interest in national security" memos you drafted and never got to send...

 

Thank you for the opportunity to review the unmitigated piece of crap your office submitted. The Joint Staff critically non-concurs with everything your wrote, subject to incorporation of the following critical comments. Delete everything after paragraph 1 and replace with something that actually has some forethought.

 

The Joint Staff point of contact for this action is...

 

Good old days.

Edited July 22, 2020 by markeb

[markeb]

5 minutes ago, hvbaskey said:

for me - it would be NO to Germany’s Cruises to Nowhere, but YES to Norway’s Coastal Cruises

 

I'd probably agree with you, all things being equal. It's an interesting cruise, and if the disease control measures are adequate, I'd consider it.

[hcat]

TUI cruise has been cancelled...Covid impeded staffing.

 

Will look for the link

[hcat]

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2020/07/articles/uncategorized/mein-schiff-1-cruise-reportedly-cancelled-due-to-covid-19/

[NMTraveller]

45 minutes ago, hvbaskey said:

Let’s get back to the Original Post *please* of “Cruising Restart” - there’s an article posted by a Cruise Critic Editor - let’s discuss!

 

As mentioned in the last part of the article, there has been NO RESTART in US Ports of Call with the no-sail order being extended until September 30th (I’m sure 99% of readers on Cruise Critic are aware of that).

 

Please let’s get back to the article shared and leave out the current environment of the United States, their Leadership (and response) and mortality numbers - there are plenty of threads to discuss that elsewhere.

 

FROM the article posted:  between Germany and Norway IF you were eligible, would you be interested?

for me - it would be NO to Germany’s Cruises to Nowhere, but YES to Norway’s Coastal Cruises

Germany:  Cruises to Nowhere restarted for German Residents
The cruises are limited -- "ships leaving Germany, returning to Germany, not stopping anywhere in between, taking only German customers," Goldstein said.  "Of course, this is incredibly restrictive compared to what we knew six months ago, but a huge advance over nothing happening at all."

 

TUI Cruises is due to restart July 24 with a cruise to nowhere on Mein Schiff 2 and AIDAperla will restart on August 5. The latter represents the first return to cruising from one of the "big three" cruising companies, as AIDA is a German cruise line owned by Carnival Corporation.

 

Norway: - coastal cruising resumed for Norwegian Residents

Though not an EU member, Norway works closely with EU bodies, and restarted coastal cruising on Hurtigruten on June 16.

 

I would cruise on Hurtigruten from/to Norway also.  However note that they are really really small ships.  

 

IMHO neither looks like normal cruising...

 

It is a start and possibly shows how cruising will start in the US.

Edited July 23, 2020 by NMTraveller

[cachouonacruise]

9 hours ago, hvbaskey said:

A good article from Cruise Critic Adam Coulter, UK Managing Editor

CLIA: More European Countries Allow Cruising Restart; No Date Yet for U.S. Cruising to Resume

 

 

 

Thank-you hvbaskey for sharing this article and this ray of hope!

 

We have a Northern Europe cruise booked for May 2021 and I keep my fingers crossed, to be able to sail it; however, I’m quite doubtful since quite a few changes are needed prior to final payment date, in February 2021.

 

I have heard promising news about vaccination; however no clear timeline yet.

 

I have heard about borders beginning to re-open, but it is still fragile or with stringent conditions, such as a 14 day quarantine upon arrival.

 

Meanwhile, the Canadian government official recommandations are still : « Avoid non essential travel » and « avoid cruise travel ».... I have not heard anything regarding a timeline for these recommandations to change.

 

Furthermore, to my knowledge, there is no travel insurance regarding Covid.... I believe this is possibly linked to our government’s recommandations. However, information on these two important issues are not yet fore coming or discussed. I’m assuming nobody really knows yet.

 

The absence of news .... as time flies... makes me very concerned to have to cancel third cruise. 

 

 

[Germancruiser]

I read about the cancelation of the Mein Schiff 1 cruise to nowhere.

Anyhow the cruise to nowhere I am going to take starts on monday- until friday. For me it was just right- three sea days- four nights- just to see how it works - cruising admist Covid 19. Also to see how it " feels" to be on an all German ship.

An experience I last had in 1990- the ship was small- i was young ! I switched to RCI in the late 90s from them to X and then to Cunard.

[markeb]

1 hour ago, Prost Seattle said:

So are some of you who think the numbers are inflated think this isn’t a big deal?  Life should return to normal?  I don’t understand the thought process here. 

 

No.

 

I'll make a last diversion from hvaskey's attempt to go back to the original question.

 

Reporting all diagnoses at the time of death is routine. It's not an inflation or a big deal. How it's used can appear to inflate numbers and become a big deal.

 

We don't do a lot of autopsies in the US and most people have never seen a complete autopsy report. A complete autopsy (or necropsy in veterinary pathology) report will list every diagnosis found. So even if the cause of death is traumatic cervical dislocation (decapitation), if stage 1 prostate cancer is found at autopsy, it will be listed as an anatomic or histological diagnosis, entered into databases, and available for future epi studies. But clearly the stage 1 prostate cancer was not the proximal cause of death.

 

What really bothers me is friends with the same background and training I have post things like the shark idea above on FB and they know better. Reporting ALL diagnoses at time of death is normal and routine. In fact, if they weren't retired, I think they should have their boards revoked and pay back their years of specialty pay. (End rant.)

[chipmaster]

For the bean counters