COVID Situation rapidly improving in the USA

[clo]

3 minutes ago, BoozinCroozin said:

The data is inaccurate to begin with. I am not denying that people died. I am stating the fact the the death rate in the US is in a declining trend even with the percentage of those that ARE actual covid deaths. 

First of all, PROVE that the data is inaccurate. And it's plateauing not declining. A plateau means it's likely going to start back up again. Again, freaking PROVE it. I'm sick to death of this nonsense. I don't care what YOU believe but I care very much that someone might believe you.

[JRG]

On 3/23/2021 at 7:57 PM, Hlitner said:

When I read this kind of stuff I cannot help but be in awe of the brilliant scientists at places like Moderna that have spent much of their adult lives thinking about viruses and developing the relatively new mRNA concept.  IMHO these scientists are the true heros of our time and are likely responsible in saving 10s of millions of lives.

 

That article was good reading and yes they are heroes.   As for the article,   I'm wondering if someday we will be able to use Microbes to tackle the Midway Island plastic blob. (a different topic altogether).   

 

closer to the thread topic though....

 

I'm watching TV right now and the discussion today is the concern for the variants coming from Brazil.   Purportedly,  76% of their population had the Covid-19 antibodies in their system but still the hospitalization rate increased within 2 months as the Brazilian variant re-infected or infected people who had not been seriously ill.

 

Does this affect your confidence level that we are stabilizing or rapidly improving?    

 

I see your rationale for making your point and I am not dis-agreeing but I'm not sure the Brazil variant thing existed when you created your post? 

 

 

 

[Donald]

In 1918 / 1919 the world had to deal with the “Spanish Flu” (which probably would have  been more correctly called the “American Flu”). But that is not the point here.

 

In 1918, the world had very little useful data on previous pandemics. The medical community was very poorly educated / prepared to treat the illness, medical science was not ready for the pandemic, there was a world war raging,  most national economies were very weak due to the war, the average human was not nearly as healthy as many are today.

So many people died so quickly that nobody today really even knows the death toll worldwide. Most sources in the USA claim that the death toll there was around 675,000.

Local, State, and National Governments tried many things to mitigate the illness and deaths; masks, quarantines, distancing, many different medicines. Some worked and some did not. Many mistakes were made; public voting, parades, celebrations with large numbers of people in close contact. The results of those mistakes were learned.

 

We are now 102 years later. We have copious data from all those challenges in 1918. We know what worked and what failed in excruciating detail.

 

On approximately 15 June 2021, if the current death rate from COVID does not increase, (there are several indicators that it will increase), the COVID death count in the USA will surpass the “Spanish Flu” death count in the USA in 1918 / 1919.

 

After more than 100 years of medical, scientific, and social development, with all the data on what worked and what failed in 1918, with a generally healthier population, better food, better communication and education, no world war, and a much stronger economy, the USA will have an even worse death toll from essentially the same disease. Nearly every mistake made in 1918 has been made again, and even with far more developed means to address the challenges, the USA has failed miserably.

 

How smart is that? 

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, JRG said:

 

That article was good reading and yes they are heroes.   As for the article,   I'm wondering if someday we will be able to use Microbes to tackle the Midway Island plastic blob. (a different topic altogether).   

 

closer to the thread topic though....

 

I'm watching TV right now and the discussion today is the concern for the variants coming from Brazil.   Purportedly,  76% of their population had the Covid-19 antibodies in their system but still the hospitalization rate increased within 2 months as the Brazilian variant re-infected or infected people who had not been seriously ill.

 

Does this affect your confidence level that we are stabilizing or rapidly improving?    

 

I see your rationale for making your point and I am not dis-agreeing but I'm not sure the Brazil variant thing existed when you created your post? 

 

 

 

I do think the variants (mutants) are worrisome.   But that being said, it does not seem to be a big problem in our country (yet) and we pray it does not become a future issue.  But part of my philosophical concern is something said by a top Swedish official early in the pandemic when he was talking about why he did not like lockdowns.  He said it was easy to for governments to lock down but much more difficult for them to later open up.   So consider a Governor like Newsom who seems to love locking down his State (it makes it easy for him to get a table at the French Laundry).  What is to stop him from locking down his State for years by simply saying he is being proactive against future variants or unknown viruses that might eventually strike.

 

There s always going to be another variant (viruses are always changing) or another new virus.  Since we have all acted like sheep as our Government took away our rights (with no due process) what is to stop the government from keeping restrictions in the name of public health (i.e. we must stay locked down because of what might come next year or the next decade).    We are seeing this with the cruise industry.  Now that the bureaucrats have shut down the industry (with no due process) they are reluctant to let them restart!  This year it is COVID, next year it might be COVID 1A, and the next year it might be a new variant of the flu, etc etc.  And the next time we have a flu epidemic will the CDC shut down restaurants, airlines, highways, schools, etc?  What is to stop them?

 

Let us not forget how the cruise lines were shut down.  A few government officials (usually not elected) simply told them they were to stop!  There were no court hearings, no discussion, no appeal.  A few people just made the decision and an industry died!  Who is stopping them from reopening tomorrow?   Not the President or the Vice President or the House or the Senate.  It is a group of faceless (and unnamed) unelected bureaucrats who have destroyed an industry.  And we (the sheep) just sit back wondering if and when they will undo what they have done.  That is not the country into which I was born.

 

Hank

 

 

[clo]

2 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

That is not the country into which I was born.

Maybe you should move to Georgia. The one here in the US.

Edited March 26, 2021 by clo

[Hlitner]

5 minutes ago, clo said:

Maybe you should move to Georgia. The one here in the US.

Why I do declare!  :).  But why Georgia bless your heart?  

 

LOL

[clo]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

Why I do declare!  :).  But why Georgia bless your heart?  

 

LOL

Because you seem to be stuck in the past. BTW being a Southerner I happen to know what "bless your heart" means. Back atcha.

[clo]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

 Not the President or the Vice President or the House or the Senate.  It is a group of faceless (and unnamed) unelected bureaucrats who have destroyed an industry. 

Holey moley. I would sure rather have "unelected" people making decisions than the elected ones. You know, like Georgia today.

[BoozinCroozin]

7 hours ago, clo said:

First of all, PROVE that the data is inaccurate. And it's plateauing not declining. A plateau means it's likely going to start back up again. Again, freaking PROVE it. I'm sick to death of this nonsense. I don't care what YOU believe but I care very much that someone might believe you.

Prove it? Very simple. Read the email from the President of one of the largest hospital chains in the US from April 2020. It stated that the rules for a covid death do not require testing or proof of covid. If the cause of death is not immediately known it can be listed as a covid death. The difference in insurance billing is $39,000 for a covid death versus others. When money is at stake and the president of the hospital is directly stating it to doctors, I guarantee the data is inaccurate.

 

As for not believing me, that is your choice. The fact is there are no requirements for covid. I know for a fact of someone with Stage IV metastatic lung cancer who had chemo treatments terminated and being moved to Hospice care at 90-some years old died before getting to Hospice care. Cause of death? COVID!!! And this is someone I know personally. The family even questioned it. If you don't think this is widespread you are very naive. Jim Jones has a tub full of Kool Aid for you.

[CruiserBruce]

3 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

Prove it? Very simple. Read the email from the President of one of the largest hospital chains in the US from April 2020. It stated that the rules for a covid death do not require testing or proof of covid. If the cause of death is not immediately known it can be listed as a covid death. The difference in insurance billing is $39,000 for a covid death versus others. When money is at stake and the president of the hospital is directly stating it to doctors, I guarantee the data is inaccurate.

 

As for not believing me, that is your choice. The fact is there are no requirements for covid. I know for a fact of someone with Stage IV metastatic lung cancer who had chemo treatments terminated and being moved to Hospice care at 90-some years old died before getting to Hospice care. Cause of death? COVID!!! And this is someone I know personally. The family even questioned it. If you don't think this is widespread you are very naive. Jim Jones has a tub full of Kool Aid for you.

Can you provide a link to that? I have been searching for it for a while, and can't find anything that provides any evidence that actually happened.

[d9704011]

14 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Can you provide a link to that? I have been searching for it for a while, and can't find anything that provides any evidence that actually happened.

Here’s some background.  I’ll leave it to you on how you want to interpret it:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

[CruiserBruce]

2 minutes ago, d9704011 said:

Here’s some background.  I’ll leave it to you on how you want to interpret it:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

Yes, I have seen that story. But it doesn't confirm that a hospital CEO said, in essence, "just claim everything is Covid, so we get paid more".

 

It HAS BEEN clearly stated that Covid care costs more. There are added costs in PPE, for example, which had high demand and short supply during the surges of Covid, this driving up costs. Extended periods intubated cost more to care for. Intubated patients are some of the most costly patients in any hospital, anywhere, whether they are sick with Covid or not. That shouldn't be a surprise to anybody with any business sense.

 

But conspiracy theories are just more fun and divisive...

[d9704011]

2 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

But conspiracy theories are just more fun and divisive...

Absolutely.  Sometimes it’s tough to let assertions go unchallenged even if you know it’s pretty much a waste of time.

[richstowe]

Loooong ago I realized everything could be politicized but thankfully some things wouldn't be . I was wrong .

[jtwind]

10 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Let us not forget how the cruise lines were shut down.  A few government officials (usually not elected) simply told them they were to stop!  There were no court hearings, no discussion, no appeal.  A few people just made the decision and an industry died!  Who is stopping them from reopening tomorrow?   Not the President or the Vice President or the House or the Senate.  It is a group of faceless (and unnamed) unelected bureaucrats who have destroyed an industry.  And we (the sheep) just sit back wondering if and when they will undo what they have done.  That is not the country into which I was born.

 

Hank

 

 

C'mon, Hank.  Every country took the same actions.

[Hlitner]

5 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

Prove it? Very simple. Read the email from the President of one of the largest hospital chains in the US from April 2020. It stated that the rules for a covid death do not require testing or proof of covid. If the cause of death is not immediately known it can be listed as a covid death. The difference in insurance billing is $39,000 for a covid death versus others. When money is at stake and the president of the hospital is directly stating it to doctors, I guarantee the data is inaccurate.

 

As for not believing me, that is your choice. The fact is there are no requirements for covid. I know for a fact of someone with Stage IV metastatic lung cancer who had chemo treatments terminated and being moved to Hospice care at 90-some years old died before getting to Hospice care. Cause of death? COVID!!! And this is someone I know personally. The family even questioned it. If you don't think this is widespread you are very naive. Jim Jones has a tub full of Kool Aid for you.

You insist on posting this garbage with absolutely no basis.  I suggest you look on the Internet and educate yourself about the DRG Reimbursement system used by nearly all insurers (including Medicare).  The hospital payment is based on the "Diagnosis"  not the outcome (i.e. death).  There is an extra payment (at least for Medicare) for COVID cases which actually makes sense since the hospital cost for caring for COVID is unusually high due to the isolation requirements.  There can also be extra payments for "Outliers" which are straight forward cost or day based and built into the DRG system.

 

There is no DRG extra payment for death or other outcomes.  

 

Hank

[Ride-The-Waves]

11 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I do think the variants (mutants) are worrisome.   But that being said, it does not seem to be a big problem in our country (yet) and we pray it does not become a future issue.  But part of my philosophical concern is something said by a top Swedish official early in the pandemic when he was talking about why he did not like lockdowns.  He said it was easy to for governments to lock down but much more difficult for them to later open up.   So consider a Governor like Newsom who seems to love locking down his State (it makes it easy for him to get a table at the French Laundry).  What is to stop him from locking down his State for years by simply saying he is being proactive against future variants or unknown viruses that might eventually strike.

 

There s always going to be another variant (viruses are always changing) or another new virus.  Since we have all acted like sheep as our Government took away our rights (with no due process) what is to stop the government from keeping restrictions in the name of public health (i.e. we must stay locked down because of what might come next year or the next decade).    We are seeing this with the cruise industry.  Now that the bureaucrats have shut down the industry (with no due process) they are reluctant to let them restart!  This year it is COVID, next year it might be COVID 1A, and the next year it might be a new variant of the flu, etc etc.  And the next time we have a flu epidemic will the CDC shut down restaurants, airlines, highways, schools, etc?  What is to stop them?

 

Let us not forget how the cruise lines were shut down.  A few government officials (usually not elected) simply told them they were to stop!  There were no court hearings, no discussion, no appeal.  A few people just made the decision and an industry died!  Who is stopping them from reopening tomorrow?   Not the President or the Vice President or the House or the Senate.  It is a group of faceless (and unnamed) unelected bureaucrats who have destroyed an industry.  And we (the sheep) just sit back wondering if and when they will undo what they have done.  That is not the country into which I was born.

 

Hank

 

 

Do you obey the local, county or state police officer when he pulls you over for speeding?  They are also not elected.  

[Ride-The-Waves]

6 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

Prove it? Very simple. Read the email from the President of one of the largest hospital chains in the US from April 2020. It stated that the rules for a covid death do not require testing or proof of covid. If the cause of death is not immediately known it can be listed as a covid death. The difference in insurance billing is $39,000 for a covid death versus others. When money is at stake and the president of the hospital is directly stating it to doctors, I guarantee the data is inaccurate.

 

As for not believing me, that is your choice. The fact is there are no requirements for covid. I know for a fact of someone with Stage IV metastatic lung cancer who had chemo treatments terminated and being moved to Hospice care at 90-some years old died before getting to Hospice care. Cause of death? COVID!!! And this is someone I know personally. The family even questioned it. If you don't think this is widespread you are very naive. Jim Jones has a tub full of Kool Aid for you.

Appears that someone has been drinking a lot of that radical right Kool Aid and obfuscating facts.  Let's stick to fact, verified facts, in our discussions. 

[clo]

7 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

As for not believing me, that is your choice.

Right. I'm just trying to warn others. You know that whole "grain of salt" thingy.

[clo]

1 hour ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Appears that someone has been drinking a lot of that radical right Kool Aid and obfuscating facts.  Let's stick to fact, verified facts, in our discussions. 

For about five years, on all manner of topics, I've asked for "verifiable and reputable citation" and never have gotten one. People have said "well, you look it up" and I've tried to explain that if one states something as fact then it's up to them to substantiate it.

[BoozinCroozin]

2 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Appears that someone has been drinking a lot of that radical right Kool Aid and obfuscating facts.  Let's stick to fact, verified facts, in our discussions. 

Give me ONE FACT about covid and the deaths? All I have to do is prove 1 piece of it is fake and your argument is dead. I am serious, give me one fact about the covid deaths in the US. Please, please let it be the number of deaths that are posted from the government. Because I know one person that died from metastatic lung cancer without covid whose death certificate and insurance billing is covid.

Edited March 26, 2021 by BoozinCroozin

[cruisemom42]

10 minutes ago, BoozinCroozin said:

Give me ONE FACT about covid and the deaths? All I have to do is prove 1 piece of it is fake and your argument is dead. I am serious, give me one fact about the covid deaths in the US. Please, please let it be the number of deaths that are posted from the government. Because I know one person that died from metastatic lung cancer without covid whose death certificate and insurance billing is covid.

 

No one, and I repeat no one, is ever right 100% of the time. 

 

Invalidating one fact or one instance does not by itself prove that an entire theory or hypothesis is incorrect. At most, it suggests that the theory should be reexamined and new conclusions drawn. This is the heart of the scientific method.

 

Yet whenever scientists do this in the "modern world", they are accused of being flip-floppers or liars or of -- heaven forbid -- the cardinal sin of changing their mind.

 

I guess politicians and others think that there is some strange "merit" in clinging to a false position tenaciously, even if 98% of the facts show it to be false...

 

 

 

 

[clo]

15 minutes ago, BoozinCroozin said:

Give me ONE FACT about covid and the deaths? All I have to do is prove 1 piece of it is fake and your argument is dead. I am serious, give me one fact about the covid deaths in the US. Please, please let it be the number of deaths that are posted from the government. Because I know one person that died from metastatic lung cancer without covid whose death certificate and insurance billing is covid.

Huh? You make all these claims but you don't document them but then say the other person needs to do the proving. Okey dokey.

[ldubs]

38 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

No one, and I repeat no one, is ever right 100% of the time. 

 

Invalidating one fact or one instance does not by itself prove that an entire theory or hypothesis is incorrect. At most, it suggests that the theory should be reexamined and new conclusions drawn. This is the heart of the scientific method.

 

Yet whenever scientists do this in the "modern world", they are accused of being flip-floppers or liars or of -- heaven forbid -- the cardinal sin of changing their mind.

 

I guess politicians and others think that there is some strange "merit" in clinging to a false position tenaciously, even if 98% of the facts show it to be false...

 

 

And there will always be individual malfeasance.    It seems too many people on both sides of this argument think in absolutes.  

[BoozinCroozin]

58 minutes ago, clo said:

Huh? You make all these claims but you don't document them but then say the other person needs to do the proving. Okey dokey.

You claim the lies the government and media are telling you and I have factual proof they are wrong. The minute 1 piece of data is wrong, it all has to be questioned. I am not asking for a friend's grandfather's death certificate and medical records to prove a point. I know the data is wrong and I know there are lies. That is fact. I love how people fail to open their eyes. No wonder this is as bad as everyone thinks. Lemmings to the slaughter house.