Court rules for Florida in cruise case, grants injunction stopping CDC order...

[wrk2cruise]

31 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

The pressure is now on the CDC to come back to the judge with an acceptable watered-down CSO or to give Florida what they want in the second mediation

 

And what is it exactly that Florida wants?   Cruising to resume??   I believe RCG is proof that it is returning.    Now if this happened 3-5 months ago I would understand it.  But now I believe the only thing happening is adding confusion to an already complicated restart.

 

I don't see anything blocking a full restart of the Caribbean season even with the existing state of the CSO.   Yes there are only limited ships sailing this summer from FL but that's the norm anyway.

Edited June 19, 2021 by wrk2cruise

[harkinmr]

22 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

The CDC raised the ATRA issue as a scare tactic; nobody had mentioned it before.  I suspect that they will walk it back if it comes to that.

The CDC raised the ATRA ratification issue as an attempt to support their authority.  It did not work obviously.  I do not believe that it was any sort of malicious scare tactic.

 

I am beginning to see a dichotomy in responses on this thread.  Some folks celebrating that the CDC was read the riot act by the judge and had their authority purportedly kicked out from under them.  Others (legitimately) concerned about the import and impact of the decision on their cruises; i.e., the Alaska exemption and vaccine/health protocols.  I'm not entirely sure why their isn't more of a meeting of the minds on these issues.  Oh well.

 

 

[ebeluga]

14 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The CDC raised the ATRA ratification issue as an attempt to support their authority.  It did not work obviously.  I do not believe that it was any sort of malicious scare tactic.

 

I am beginning to see a dichotomy in responses on this thread.  Some folks celebrating that the CDC was read the riot act by the judge and had their authority purportedly kicked out from under them.  Others (legitimately) concerned about the import and impact of the decision on their cruises; i.e., the Alaska exemption and vaccine/health protocols.  I'm not entirely sure why their isn't more of a meeting of the minds on these issues.  Oh well.

 

 

Exactly, the media portrays this as a "us" verses "them" battle when in fact everyone wants a safe cruise and in the process not to destroy the businesses.  All the parties involved at the table bring their unique perspective and they all need to listen and compromise.

Edited June 19, 2021 by ebeluga

[K12Guy]

8 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

m not entirely sure why their isn't more of a meeting of the minds on these issues.  Oh well.

Too many close minded people who think their idea, opinion, or theory is the only correct offering, perhaps? Sometimes when I am trimming my roses I have to step back and look at the big picture to see what I've missed. Some people clip roses and walk away, I reckon.

[Starry Eyes]

8 hours ago, hcat said:

Agree.seems case was about the powers of CDC and how they can make, impose and enforce rules...not just about cruises??? Waiting to hear and read more.

 

Many local and state rules have been  tossed based upon agency or legis or gov exceeding authority,  or failing to follow rule making procedures.

 

Most everything  here in NY is open and unmasked..honor system  for vaccine proof.

I agree.  While the basis of the case is restarting cruises in Florida, the real issue is , as you suggest, the scope of the CDC’s power to make/enforce rules.  The CDC asserted that it can make rules to stop even one case of human-to-human disease transmission with no limits to it’s power, even shutting down billion $ industries, even without proving it’s methods will work,  no time limits, no challenges… whatever they say.   
 

Some here may want the CDC to have a lot of power during Covid, but think past that… the CDC is saying they can shut down cruiselines anytime, without advanced notice, if they suspect even ONE potential case of some other infectious disease could occur in the future (because they actually said in court one case is an “outbreak” they can regulate!!!!).  So they can claiming power to shut down any/every cruise, anytime, if they wish.  The judge does not seem to agree with them that Congress gave them that wide ranging power, and they need to know their limits.  If the CDC feels needs more power, they should go to congress and humbly ask for legislation to give it to them.

 

Like others, I think the CDC knew it had a weak case, and that is why they loosened CSO restrictions in recent weeks.  They’d have looked even worse if they had not.

[BermudaBound2014]

23 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The CDC raised the ATRA ratification issue as an attempt to support their authority.  It did not work obviously.  I do not believe that it was any sort of malicious scare tactic.

 

I am beginning to see a dichotomy in responses on this thread.  Some folks celebrating that the CDC was read the riot act by the judge and had their authority purportedly kicked out from under them.  Others (legitimately) concerned about the import and impact of the decision on their cruises; i.e., the Alaska exemption and vaccine/health protocols.  I'm not entirely sure why their isn't more of a meeting of the minds on these issues.  Oh well.

 

 

I think if we tease it all out, most people are meeting in the middle. IMO- It is important that the CdC got the “riot act” because no one wants bureaucrat over reach. On the same hand, people realize there is likely a need for some type of government over site. IMO it is likely only a small minority  think in absolute black and white (but I do agree those who do seem to be over-represented here). 

Edited June 19, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[kearney]

1 hour ago, bajathree said:

There is also a chance that come this 4th July weekend the Biden administration makes some big announcement saying we have turned the page on Covid.

That is going to be hard to do..if the US does not hit that 70% vaccination goal. If we are at say 60% of total pop vaccinated... it will be hard to say... "we made it". Setting a specific figure makes it hard to declare success when you don't meet your own number. Now they may try and it will be interesting to see how they do that... perhaps 'new' data on natural or acquired immunity.. saying that we now have reached the magic herd immunity level... 

[bajathree]

3 minutes ago, kearney said:

That is going to be hard to do..if the US does not hit that 70% vaccination goal. If we are at say 60% of total pop vaccinated... it will be hard to say... "we made it". Setting a specific figure makes it hard to declare success when you don't meet your own number. Now they may try and it will be interesting to see how they do that... perhaps 'new' data on natural or acquired immunity.. saying that we now have reached the magic herd immunity level... 

Well we shall see.....but at this point I wouldn't say anything is off the table.

[ebeluga]

6 minutes ago, kearney said:

That is going to be hard to do..if the US does not hit that 70% vaccination goal. If we are at say 60% of total pop vaccinated... it will be hard to say... "we made it". Setting a specific figure makes it hard to declare success when you don't meet your own number. Now they may try and it will be interesting to see how they do that... perhaps 'new' data on natural or acquired immunity.. saying that we now have reached the magic herd immunity level... 

It is wiser not to declare anything when the delta variant is becoming dorminant.  Don't want to repeat the infamous " mission accomplished" scene (from the Bush years).

Edited June 19, 2021 by ebeluga

[kearney]

1 hour ago, PRH said:

We will not cruise if vaccinations are not required.  Until 80%of Americans are vaccinated, the risk for an outbreak and additional variants is too great.  Hopefully cruise lines will honor our cancellations and refunds our monies.  We are elite plus on celebrity but not willing to chance a cruise to nowhere because the antivaxers don’t care about putting anyone else at risk.  Talk about putting an industry at risk!

Out of curiosity why 80%? What makes that number special... why not 75% or 95%? 

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, bajathree said:

There is also a chance that come this 4th July weekend the Biden administration makes some big announcement saying we have turned the page on Covid.

Interesting.  I responded earlier but can't find my post.

 

I don't think there's much chance of a "COVID is over" announcement on July 4th.  Especially since we are not projected to achieve the vaccination goals set for July 1.  We have a ways to go.

[harkinmr]

18 minutes ago, kearney said:

Out of curiosity why 80%? What makes that number special... why not 75% or 95%? 

The actual herd immunity percentage has always been somewhere between 70 to 75% being fully vaccinated, and we're certainly nowhere near that now and the chances decline each day as there is more and more vaccine hesitancy.

[Ken the cruiser]

12 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Interesting.  I responded earlier but can't find my post.

 

I don't think there's much chance of a "COVID is over" announcement on July 4th.  Especially since we are not projected to achieve the vaccination goals set for July 1.  We have a ways to go.

I know this would be a long shot, but wouldn't it be cool if it was announced the Pfizer vaccine was fully approved by the FDA? 😎

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/05/07/994839927/pfizer-seeks-full-fda-approval-for-covid-19-vaccine

 

[harkinmr]

Just now, Ken the cruiser said:

I know this would be a long shot, but wouldn't it be cool if it was announced the Pfizer vaccine was fully approved by the FDA? 😎

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/05/07/994839927/pfizer-seeks-full-fda-approval-for-covid-19-vaccine

 

Personally, I think it would be fantastic.  But I also think at this point, even full approval would be suspect in certain corners that seem to have an overwhelming impact on willingness to be vaccinated.  Lots of people just dug in at this point.  It's unfortunate.

[Starry Eyes]

21 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The actual herd immunity percentage has always been somewhere between 70 to 75% being fully vaccinated, and we're certainly nowhere near that now and the chances decline each day as there is more and more vaccine hesitancy.

Herd immunity (as traditionally defined…I know some people needlessly try to redefine known concepts) depends on the percentage of the population that is immune to the disease, not the percentage of the population that is vaccinated.

 

Maybe that sounds like semantics, but it is important.  There are countries using less efficacious vaccines than ours that have decent immunization rates yet are not protected from outbreaks, because not everybody vaccinated there is immune.  On the other hand, some of non vaccinated people in US have acquired immunity from infection and their immunity does contribute to herd immunity.

[ipeeinthepool]

34 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Interesting.  I responded earlier but can't find my post.

 

I don't think there's much chance of a "COVID is over" announcement on July 4th.  Especially since we are not projected to achieve the vaccination goals set for July 1.  We have a ways to go.

 

I'll try to help.

 

Covid is over for vaccinated individuals.  If you are not vaccinated please continue to follow masking and social distancing rules.  Anyone not vaccinated should take appropriate precautions to protect themselves.  In order to protect unvaccinated individuals, they will be subject to additional restrictions.

[kirtihk]

12 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

I'll try to help.

 

Covid is over for vaccinated individuals.  If you are not vaccinated please continue to follow masking and social distancing rules.  Anyone not vaccinated should take appropriate precautions to protect themselves.  In order to protect unvaccinated individuals, they will be subject to additional restrictions.

What is social distancing? - Sitting on the top of a mountain to avoid contact to humans? Misanthrope anyone?!

[harkinmr]

23 minutes ago, Starry Eyes said:

Herd immunity (as traditionally defined…I know some people needlessly try to redefine known concepts) depends on the percentage of the population that is immune to the disease, not the percentage of the population that is vaccinated.

 

Maybe that sounds like semantics, but it is important.  There are countries using less efficacious vaccines than ours that have decent immunization rates yet are not protected from outbreaks, because not everybody vaccinated there is immune.  On the other hand, some of non vaccinated people in US have acquired immunity from infection and their immunity does contribute to herd immunity.

 

"Herd immunity" is defined as resistance to the spread of infectious disease within a population based on immunity through previous infection or vaccination.  Traditionally, the vaccination rate needs to be in the range of 85 to 95%.  Natural immunity is a theory, and at this stage has not been established with any specificity by scientific peer-reviewed data.  Any assumptions made as to the percentage of the population that is "naturally immune" are just that: assumptions.  There is a percentage of the population that has been infected, but even still there remains a question as to how long that immunity lasts. The primary measure of herd immunity for COVID-19 has always been primarily measured by the percentage of the population that has been fully vaccinated. "Needlessly redefined" I guess is in the eye of the scientific beholder.

Edited June 19, 2021 by harkinmr

[ipeeinthepool]

24 minutes ago, kirtihk said:

What is social distancing? - Sitting on the top of a mountain to avoid contact to humans? Misanthrope anyone?!

 

If you don't understand social distancing by now, I can't help you.

[Starry Eyes]

45 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

 

"Herd immunity" is defined as resistance to the spread of infectious disease within a population based on immunity through previous infection or vaccination.  Traditionally, the vaccination rate needs to be in the range of 85 to 95%.  Natural immunity is a theory, and at this stage has not been established with any specificity by scientific peer-reviewed data.  Any assumptions made as to the percentage of the population that is "naturally immune" are just that: assumptions.  There is a percentage of the population that has been infected, but even still there remains a question as to how long that immunity lasts. The primary measure of herd immunity for COVID-19 has always been primarily measured by the percentage of the population that has been fully vaccinated. "Needlessly redefined" I guess is in the eye of the scientific beholder.

Those who are not wearing blinders (that’s likely excludes you) can see the low rate of reinfection by Covid-19, especially for those under 65.  And there are some studies.  Certainly how long that immunity will last is unclear…as it is unclear how long the vaccine induced immunity will last.   The percentage needed for herd immunity depends on the R0 of the disease, not “tradition.”  Natural immunity has always been included.  For example, when a measles vaccine was developed years ago, we did not immunize those who had natural immunity; they were already protected and part of herd immunity.  In that case natural immunity outlasted vaccine immunity.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Starry Eyes

[harkinmr]

42 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

I'll try to help.

 

Covid is over for vaccinated individuals.  If you are not vaccinated please continue to follow masking and social distancing rules.  Anyone not vaccinated should take appropriate precautions to protect themselves.  In order to protect unvaccinated individuals, they will be subject to additional restrictions.

😂

 

Wasn't talking about cruising.  COVID may be over for vaccinated people, but why are all the unvaccinated people acting like it is for them as well?  Unvaccinated people are supposed to be following masking and social distancing rules, but the vast majority aren't...or never were.  I live in a state where the fully vaccinated rate is a little over 40%.  I go anywhere and the number of unmasked people is well over 95%.  Do the math. Cruise lines may be able to control it, but in society at large, not so much.  I guess we'll see if it has an impact over time.  Thanks to those who have stepped up to be vaccinated.

[harkinmr]

Just now, Starry Eyes said:

Those you are not wearing blinders (that’s likely excludes you) can see the low rate of reinfection by Covid-19, especially for those under 65.  And there are some studies.  Certainly how long that immunity will last is unclear…as it is unclear how long the vaccine induced immunity will last.   The percentage needed for herd immunity depends on the R0 of the disease, not “tradition.”  Natural immunity has always been included.  For example, when a measles vaccine was developed years ago, we did not immunize those who had natural immunity; they were already protected and part of herd immunity.  In that case natural immunity outlasted vaccine immunity.

"Blinders"?  That's your response.  I stopped listening after that.

[Starry Eyes]

7 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

"Blinders"?  That's your response.  I stopped listening after that.

I think you stoped listening long ago…

[kirtihk]

18 minutes ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

If you don't understand social distancing by now, I can't help you.

I believe it is rather referred to physical distancing - to keep a distance from other object.  Social distancing is what I described in my previous quote. If one hates people, she keeps herself away from them socially, doesn’t she? I do not get this “social distance” nonsense from day one. Someone said it, and the world caught it up like a herd of bisons.

[kirtihk]

12 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

"Blinders"?  That's your response.  I stopped listening after that.

The majority in modern self-loved society stopped listening common sense before they were born (picking it up from parents’ genes). And on top of that, relying indefinitely on a kind aunt to keep care of them and solve their problems.