Holland America Line pop quiz

[Copper10-8]

8 minutes ago, Sir PMP said:

British..

 

Negatory! 😉 

[Alphen]

I don’t think the transition went smoothly, since the laid off crew did not take this well! 

[Sir PMP]

40 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

Negatory! 😉 

Ok, de Belgen dan..

[VMax1700]

German?

Also because of value of DGL in those days.

[Copper10-8]

1 hour ago, Alphen said:

Indonesia

 

Winner! The first Indonesian crew signed on onboard Ryndam II during the Fall of 1970. After a trial period they joined all the dam ships  as dining room stewards, cabin stewards and in the non-officer functions in the deck and engine departments. Today, they can be found in most ship departments as the largest nationality group onboard.

 

 

[Copper10-8]

29 minutes ago, VMax1700 said:

German?

Also because of value of DGL in those days.

 

 

Believe it or not, German nationals are not that well represented on HAL.  

[Copper10-8]

43 minutes ago, Sir PMP said:

Ok, de Belgen dan..

 

Negatory! There have been/are still Belgians working on HAL but not in large numbers

[Alphen]

3 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

 

Believe it or not, German nationals are not that well represented on HAL.  

We had an assistant dining room manager from Germany a couple of years ago on Noordam, but indeed not seen many.

Edited March 19, 2022 by Alphen

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Alphen said:

I don’t think the transition went smoothly, since the laid off crew did not take this well! 

Its a funny thing about the Dutch, and quite admirable as well.  I remember about 20-25 years ago, I was on a container ship calling at Europort, the major container terminal for Rotterdam.  It was eerie, as with the exception of the crane drivers taking the containers off the ship, there was no one anywhere to be seen.  The tractors pulling 4-5 container flatbeds were automated to stop where needed, knew when the container was loaded, moved up for the next, and then drove to put the containers in the proper rows.  A straddle lifter, again with no one inside, would scan the container number, pick it up and place it in the proper stack.

 

I spoke to the pilot there, and asked about how the longshoremen took to being automated out of a job.  The US had just had a longshoremen strike against a very scaled back modernization of the US terminals.  The pilot said that no one raised an objection about the automation, because all the longshoremen, instead of having to be out in all kinds of weather unlashing containers, driving trucks and lifters, etc, they were all now housed in the main control center, controlling the automated vehicles.  Unlike the US longshoremen, they were receptive to retraining, into jobs that had far more potential than a mere laborer on a dock.  I've always admired the Dutch after that conversation.

 

So, I suspect that many of the Dutch crew found new jobs that moved up in the world, and were in a better place afterwards.  Seagoing wages have never been great outside the US. (and those have been static for the 46 years of my career.

Edited March 19, 2022 by chengkp75

[Copper10-8]

14 minutes ago, Alphen said:

We had an assistant dining room manager from Germany a couple of years ago on Noordam, but indeed not seen many.

 

 

I've worked with a German 2nd (Deck) officer, of course Sabine, HAL's up to now only female staff captain, is German. Also worked with a really good German hotel director on Zuiderdam. There have been German executive chefs on HAL. A German asst. beverage manager comes to mind but, for some reason, not too many overall  

[Alphen]

2 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

 

I've worked with a German 2nd (Deck) officer, of course Sabine, HAL's up to now only female staff captain, is German. Also worked with a really good German hotel director on Zuiderdam. There have been German executive chefs on HAL. A German asst. beverage manager comes to mind but, for some reason, not too many overall  

I think with Aida, Hapag, Mein Schiff and others, they have plenty of choice.

[rkacruiser]

1 hour ago, Copper10-8 said:

The first Indonesian crew signed on onboard Ryndam II during the Fall of 1970.

 

I sailed on Rotterdam V in July/August, 1970.  Did the Dutch/European crew knew then that a change of crew nationality was possible?  No detection of that by me.  But, sailing in that same time frame on Rotterdam V one year later, when there were some different nationalities in the positions that were not guest facing aboard, I witnessed a confrontation (that I have posted about on CC before and does not need to be repeated).  The European crew were not happy that afternoon/evening. 

[Sir PMP]

1 hour ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

 

I've worked with a German 2nd (Deck) officer, of course Sabine, HAL's up to now only female staff captain, is German. Also worked with a really good German hotel director on Zuiderdam. There have been German executive chefs on HAL. A German asst. beverage manager comes to mind but, for some reason, not too many overall  

Gunther Gussig, Wolfgang Wasshausen, Ulbricht...

[VMax1700]

2 hours ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

 

Believe it or not, German nationals are not that well represented on HAL.  

This is what I based my guess on.........

source: http://www.halpostcards.com/unofficial/kohler.html

 

More changes were in store for RYNDAM and MAASDAM with rising losses because of a devalued guilder, inflation and the high labour costs of their Dutch crews. In early 1966 it was decided to transfer RYNDAM to H.A.L.'s German flag subsidiary Europa-Kanada Linie GmbH of Bremen (renamed that year E.C.L. Shipping Co.) replacing SEVEN SEAS, a converted American C3 class freighter used for low-cost student voyages. The RYNDAM's last Montreal sailing was on 20th August 1966. Re-registered in Bremen, her buff funnel was given a green band with white diamonds. Her Dutch officers and crew were replaced by lower salaried Germans

[Copper10-8]

46 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I sailed on Rotterdam V in July/August, 1970.  Did the Dutch/European crew knew then that a change of crew nationality was possible?  No detection of that by me.  But, sailing in that same time frame on Rotterdam V one year later, when there were some different nationalities in the positions that were not guest facing aboard, I witnessed a confrontation (that I have posted about on CC before and does not need to be repeated).  The European crew were not happy that afternoon/evening. 

 

As stated, the first Indonesian crew sailed Ryndam II in the Fall of 1970, meaning Rotterdam V still had a Dutch crew. After tat initial trial period with positive results, the Indonesians started spreading out to the remainder of the fleet, incl. the grand dame

[AmazedByCruising]

53 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

I sailed on Rotterdam V in July/August, 1970.  Did the Dutch/European crew knew then that a change of crew nationality was possible?  No detection of that by me.  But, sailing in that same time frame on Rotterdam V one year later, when there were some different nationalities in the positions that were not guest facing aboard, I witnessed a confrontation (that I have posted about on CC before and does not need to be repeated).  The European crew were not happy that afternoon/evening. 

 

I saw a documentary about HAL, and it has a segment about replacing Dutch crew with Indonesians. https://anderetijden.nl/programma/1/Andere-Tijden/aflevering/754/Klassenverschil-op-de-Holland-Amerika-Lijn at 24:40. Not sure you can see it, pretty sure you won't understand the Dutch 🙂

 

Anyway, the crew happened to read it in a newspaper and were not happy at all. One person says a piano and dishware went overboard, and on another ship everything went overboard. Obviously those protests didn't help. 

 

Nor did the replacement of crew help HAL much, in 1989 HAL was sold to Carnival. 

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by AmazedByCruising

[Copper10-8]

28 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

I saw a documentary about HAL, and it has a segment about replacing Dutch crew with Indonesians. https://anderetijden.nl/programma/1/Andere-Tijden/aflevering/754/Klassenverschil-op-de-Holland-Amerika-Lijn at 24:40. Not sure you can see it, pretty sure you won't understand the Dutch 🙂

 

Anyway, the crew happened to read it in a newspaper and were not happy at all. One person says a piano and dishware went overboard, and on another ship everything went overboard. Obviously those protests didn't help. 

 

Nor did the replacement of crew help HAL much, in 1989 HAL was sold to Carnival. 

 

 

 

I really like that "Andere Tijden" / "Different Times" series. Brings back a lot of memories from my youth in Amsterdam. Educational also!

[AmazedByCruising]

7 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

 

I really like that "Andere Tijden" / "Different Times" series. Brings back a lot of memories from my youth in Amsterdam. Educational also!

 

I guess the part where someone mentions that all crew was drunk all the time, but so were the pax so it didn't matter, also brings back fond memories 🙂

Edited March 19, 2022 by AmazedByCruising

[Copper10-8]

27 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

I guess the part where someone mentions that all crew was drunk all the time, but so were the pax so it didn't matter, also brings back fond memories 🙂

 

I was in school in the sixties and half of the seventies, so I can't confirm that the crew, as well as the pax, were drunk all the time like the former crew member in the documentary claims. No doubt there was hard partying going on after a day of hard work, but kinda find "drunk all the time" hard to believe however 

[rkacruiser]

18 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

I can't confirm that the crew, as well as the pax, were drunk

 

Neither can I.  The only drunk guest that I remember on my first cruise in 1970 on Rotterdam V was a gentleman who was well "sauced" in the Sky Room Bar when I got there late one evening.  Walking across the floor, he fell, was picked up by two crew members to return him to his cabin.  The elevators in that room opened directly into the Lounge.  Minutes later, the elevator doors opened and out popped the gentleman.  (The crew who escorted him to his cabin had yet to return to the Lounge.)  He returned to his seat at the bar for a few minutes.  Then, there was a repeat of his act.  Crew escorted him to the elevators for a second time and I never saw him again.  

 

1 hour ago, AmazedByCruising said:

the crew happened to read it in a newspaper and were not happy at all. One person says a piano and dishware went overboard,

 

I have heard that before.  

 

1 hour ago, AmazedByCruising said:

Nor did the replacement of crew help HAL much, in 1989 HAL was sold to Carnival. 

 

If that transaction had not taken place, it is likely there would not be a Holland America Line today.

 

Carnival Corporation has taken excessive flak over the years concerning that transaction.  It's not warranted.  Read the history of what Mr. Arison was considering for a proposed "Tiffany Project".  The acquisition of HAL, at that time, made sense to him and, in this cruiser and CCL shareholder's opinion, made sense.  Is the "Tiffany" comparable to the luxury cruise lines of today?  No.  But, in the late 1980's, it was a "Tiffany" acquisition.  

 

 

[AmazedByCruising]

18 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

I was in school in the sixties and half of the seventies, so I can't confirm that the crew, as well as the pax, were drunk all the time like the former crew member in the documentary claims. No doubt there was hard partying going on after a day of hard work, but kinda find "drunk all the time" hard to believe however 

 

That's what they say, but the ones interviewed aren't high ranking officers. Not sure how it works now. Please say that waiters and casino personnel are allowed to be completely drunk once in a while and nobody bats an eye? 

 

Similar is shooting golf balls into the sea, which must have been listed in a daily program. Times have changed.

 

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

Please say that waiters and casino personnel are allowed to be completely drunk once in a while and nobody bats an eye? 

Nope.  The STCW Convention requires that all crew abide by the maximum blood alcohol of 0.05% at all times on the ship, and no alcohol within 4 hours of starting work.  Most lines also require that all officers and crew who stand bridge and engine watches, as well as all senior officers, have a 0.00% blood alcohol at all times.  For NCL, that was the Captain, Staff Captain, Chief Engineer, Staff Chief Engineer, and Hotel Director.

[Aquahound]

13 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Nope.  The STCW Convention requires that all crew abide by the maximum blood alcohol of 0.05% at all times on the ship, and no alcohol within 4 hours of starting work.  Most lines also require that all officers and crew who stand bridge and engine watches, as well as all senior officers, have a 0.00% blood alcohol at all times.  For NCL, that was the Captain, Staff Captain, Chief Engineer, Staff Chief Engineer, and Hotel Director.

 

And when under US jurisdiction, the BAC limit for anyone in charge is .04.  

[AmazedByCruising]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Nope.  The STCW Convention requires that all crew abide by the maximum blood alcohol of 0.05% at all times on the ship, and no alcohol within 4 hours of starting work.  Most lines also require that all officers and crew who stand bridge and engine watches, as well as all senior officers, have a 0.00% blood alcohol at all times.  For NCL, that was the Captain, Staff Captain, Chief Engineer, Staff Chief Engineer, and Hotel Director.

 

From Wikipedia, sorry, [STCW] sets minimum qualification standards for masters, officers and watch personnel on seagoing merchant ships and large yachts

 

That's quite specific, the important people who get paid to keep the pax alive. Not the person who knows the fine details of Black Jack, how to arrange seats in MDR, or how to clean a toilet.

 

Are you sure it's international law that says all crew cannot be drunk? Even if they are the magician?

 

 

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

From Wikipedia, sorry, [STCW] sets minimum qualification standards for masters, officers and watch personnel on seagoing merchant ships and large yachts

 

That's quite specific, the important people who get paid to keep the pax alive. Not the person who knows the fine details of Black Jack, how to arrange seats in MDR, or how to clean a toilet.

 

Are you sure it's international law that says all crew cannot be drunk? Even if they are the magician?

 

 

As you know, I don't hold Wikipedia to be all that accurate, but if you read the whole article, you will see that there are several amendments to the original 1978 Convention.  The original, as per the name, concerns "Training" and "Competency" in "Watchkeeping".  However, if you read down to the section titled:  "Manila Amendments", you will see that in 2012 there were drug and alcohol limits set for crew members, along with work and rest hours, and the "Manila Amendments" apply to all seafarers, not just those who stand watches.  I think I know what the law says, after 46 years in the industry, as well as being involved with drug and alcohol testing on NCL ships with international crew.  You may want to Google "Manila Amendments to STCW", and go to original documents from the IMO, and you'll see the required testing and limits for crew.  All crew are subject to random drug and alcohol testing while onboard, and exceeding the limits is grounds for dismissal.  This applies to all crew, including concession employees (spa, shop, casino).  It does not apply to crew who are granted "passenger status", like the magician or featured singers/musicians.