Bad experience

[BermudaBound2014]

2 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I agree and yet I cruise.  I felt that nothing we could do would stop a virus this virulent.  The only thing worthwhile were the vaccines and therapeutics. And for this unfortunate OP it was not enough.  It is a decision we will have to make based on our personal information and our personal risk tolerance.  One component is expectations of failure of your plans and a financial and logistical plan to cope with that failure 

 

Bingo! Everyone has their own risk tolerances. Personally, I'm not at all afraid of covid. I have assessed the risk and would sail tomorrow if there was no risk of mandatory quarantine (which is more of an unrealistic claustrophobic fear for me than anything else). Plus, I really really enjoy land vacations I'll likely continue to vacation by land where I have less chance of finding myself emersed in high population density areas.

 

For people to suggest that the Cruise Lines have some sort of magic wand they can wave and 'protect' everyone onboard is ludicrous. Even the most strict protocols didn't work when cruising first resumed and they certainly won't work with the more contagious Omicron. 

 

No matter what the protocols, if you are electing to take a cruise, you need to accept the possibility that you will become infected.  If your risk tolerance for infection is low, you may want to pause boarding a ship.

[Horizon chaser 1957]

16 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Bingo! Everyone has their own risk tolerances. Personally, I'm not at all afraid of covid. I have assessed the risk and would sail tomorrow if there was no risk of mandatory quarantine (which is more of an unrealistic claustrophobic fear for me than anything else). Plus, I really really enjoy land vacations I'll likely continue to vacation by land where I have less chance of finding myself emersed in high population density areas.

 

For people to suggest that the Cruise Lines have some sort of magic wand they can wave and 'protect' everyone onboard is ludicrous. Even the most strict protocols didn't work when cruising first resumed and they certainly won't work with the more contagious Omicron. 

 

No matter what the protocols, if you are electing to take a cruise, you need to accept the possibility that you will become infected.  If your risk tolerance for infection is low, you may want to pause boarding a ship.

Exactly my thoughts.
We cruised to Alaska in May on the Zuiderdam. We drove to the port, so airplanes were not a factor. Everyone was tested, and everyone was fully vaxxed. We masked indoors if we couldn’t social distance. The number of people masked definitely dropped as the cruise went on.
The day we came home, my husband had a low fever but tested negative. Two days later we both tested positive and isolated. We each had one day that would have required calling in sick by 2019 standards.

We have two Grand Voyages coming up. We will be taking as many precautions as possible. Even so, we EXPECT to test positive at some point, and be confined to our cabin for a few days. We are packing medications for the symptoms, a thermometer, and an oximeter. More important, we are arranging an ‘advocate buddy’ if we end up in quarantine. This is someone who will go to the front desk in person on your behalf if your phone calls aren’t being answered or acted on. When they go ashore they can pick up a treat to be delivered to you. They phone and check up on you regularly. And if they’re the ones who end up quarantined you do the same for them.

We are aware of the risk, made what contingencies we can, and are going anyway. For us, waiting several more years in hopes we can still travel is the greater risk.  It’s an individual choice. Everyone has different circumstances, and will come to different conclusions with the same information.

[BermudaBound2014]

4 minutes ago, Horizon chaser 1957 said:

We have two Grand Voyages coming up. We will be taking as many precautions as possible. Even so, we EXPECT to test positive at some point, and be confined to our cabin for a few days. We are packing medications for the symptoms, a thermometer, and an oximeter. More important, we are arranging an ‘advocate buddy’ if we end up in quarantine. This is someone who will go to the front desk in person on your behalf if your phone calls aren’t being answered or acted on. When they go ashore they can pick up a treat to be delivered to you. They phone and check up on you regularly. And if they’re the ones who end up quarantined you do the same for them.

We are aware of the risk, made what contingencies we can, and are going anyway. For us, waiting several more years in hopes we can still travel is the greater risk.  It’s an individual choice. Everyone has different circumstances, and will come to different conclusions with the same information.

 

What a great plan!! I love it. Wishing you a wonderful Grand Voyage!! 

[SunNFunCruzer]

2 hours ago, Horizon chaser 1957 said:

We masked indoors if we couldn’t social distance. The number of people masked definitely dropped as the cruise went on.
The day we came home, my husband had a low fever but tested negative. Two days later we both tested positive and isolated.

 

I don't get it.  You are all proving our point, yet are convinced that the protections the Cruiselines implemented early during the restart -- vaccines, testing, mandatory masks and social distancing -- fail -- while the statistics prove they worked.  The CDC used a color system and while masks and social distancing were mandated many ships were green. That meant there was very little COVID.  When the mask mandates were lifted and crowds were allowed to gather again (mostly unmasked), COVID positive rates increased, and vacations were ruined.  Look at how many posters on this thread turned up COVID positive after boarding.

 

Suzanne is right -- no one wants to pay $10,000 to spend 8 days isolated in quarantine feeling sick and feeling neglected. The fact that Horizon Chaser has to plan to have an "advocate" in case they are locked in their cabin, should tell you all you need to know... HAL is NOT doing what they should be doing.  Masks are uncomfortable. Masks are no one's preference. But, if enforcing a mask mandate keeps me and those around me safe, healthy and able to walk around the ship and enjoy the fresh air, sign me up for a cruise with a mask-mandate.  Masks work. Masks have worked in operating rooms for centuries.  HAL should re-implement the mask mandates and then they'd have the staff available to service the quarantine rooms since being infected and quarantined will be so rare.

[jlnprt]

I haven't read all of the comments, so maybe others have brought this up. I understand that we take a risk by cruising these days (dh and I have done 2 14-day cruises this year). I accept that we may get covid in spite of being vaccinated, tested, and taking precautions. I'm pretty sure most cruisers these days understand those risks. My biggest concern about what OP went through was that it sounds like they were pretty much ignored while quarantined. Breathing issues and no medical personnel came to check on them? Telling her dh to go to the medical facility when they knew he had covid? THAT'S the part that bothers me most. Refunds, FCC, etc., are important, but if I get sick (covid or otherwise), I'd like to know that I would get basic medical care onboard. 

[Hlitner]

20 minutes ago, jlnprt said:

I haven't read all of the comments, so maybe others have brought this up. I understand that we take a risk by cruising these days (dh and I have done 2 14-day cruises this year). I accept that we may get covid in spite of being vaccinated, tested, and taking precautions. I'm pretty sure most cruisers these days understand those risks. My biggest concern about what OP went through was that it sounds like they were pretty much ignored while quarantined. Breathing issues and no medical personnel came to check on them? Telling her dh to go to the medical facility when they knew he had covid? THAT'S the part that bothers me most. Refunds, FCC, etc., are important, but if I get sick (covid or otherwise), I'd like to know that I would get basic medical care onboard. 

I will gently disagree with some of your post.  The protocol of leaving somebody alone in their cabin is correct.  Anyone entering that cabin (including medical personnel) increase the risk of COVID spread.  If a person is having breathing difficulty or other severe symptoms, they would need to bring this to the attention of the medical staff and likely be hospitalized in the Medical Center where they have the appropriate equipment (including O2) and ability to further isolate the patient.  We have been on several cruises, in the past, year where there were multiple COVID cases, and this was the normal protocol.  Bottom line is that if you have COVID and are sick enough that you need regular medical care than you should be hospitalized.   As to telling somebody to walk to the Medical Center...well I guess the alternative is that somebody could come to their cabin and escort them to the medical center which just adds to exposure risk.''

 

I will add that if you get COVID at home, what do you think happens?  Does your physician make a house call?  What normally happens is that you might call your physician and describe your symptoms.  Unless you are having very nasty symptoms you will generally be told to stay home, quarantine for a week, and perhaps have somebody pick up a script of Paxlovid (this is debatable).  If your symptoms are considered serious your physician's office will likely tell you to get yourself to an Emergency Room (they do not want you in the physician's office).

 

Hank

[SightCRR]

All of these messages are making the painful decision we made yesterday to cancel our scheduled Alaska cruise a little easier. 

sightcrr. 

[Horizon chaser 1957]

34 minutes ago, SunNFunCruzer said:

 

I don't get it.  You are all proving our point, yet are convinced that the protections the Cruiselines implemented early during the restart -- vaccines, testing, mandatory masks and social distancing -- fail -- while the statistics prove they worked.  The CDC used a color system and while masks and social distancing were mandated many ships were green. That meant there was very little COVID.  When the mask mandates were lifted and crowds were allowed to gather again (mostly unmasked), COVID positive rates increased, and vacations were ruined.  Look at how many posters on this thread turned up COVID positive after boarding.

 

Suzanne is right -- no one wants to pay $10,000 to spend 8 days isolated in quarantine feeling sick and feeling neglected. The fact that Horizon Chaser has to plan to have an "advocate" in case they are locked in their cabin, should tell you all you need to know... HAL is NOT doing what they should be doing.  Masks are uncomfortable. Masks are no one's preference. But, if enforcing a mask mandate keeps me and those around me safe, healthy and able to walk around the ship and enjoy the fresh air, sign me up for a cruise with a mask-mandate.  Masks work. Masks have worked in operating rooms for centuries.  HAL should re-implement the mask mandates and then they'd have the staff available to service the quarantine rooms since being infected and quarantined will be so rare.

What is there to get? 
I was stating our experience, which is a fact, not an opinion.

Do I believe the protections help prevent spread? Yes. That is an opinion. Do I think they are followed to the extent they should be? No. Also an opinion. Did following the rules ourselves stop us from getting Covid? No. Fact, not opinion.

As much as I believe in the protocols, resumed sailings show they don’t work 100% of the time. We are still taking chances, just to a lesser degree. You can’t trust everyone around you to follow all the rules all the time. That’s not how the human race actually operates. 

So it comes down to do your best, examine the odds realistically, and decide if the odds are acceptable to you or not. Only you can decide which side of the go/ no go line you are on.

[jlnprt]

All excellent points, Hank, and I appreciate your thoughts. Maybe I read more into the post than was there. It concerned me that, if the medical staff was told a passenger had breathing issues, and nothing was done, that's scary ... covid or no! With all the covid cases that have happened on board, I would think the medical center would be prepared with oxygen, isolation, etc. I guess I was looking at it as a "worst case" scenario. Breathing issues are scary!

 

Totally agree with you about what would happen if you developed covid at home

[Mary229]

16 minutes ago, SightCRR said:

All of these messages are making the painful decision we made yesterday to cancel our scheduled Alaska cruise a little easier. 

sightcrr. 

And that is the proper function of the forum, to give viewpoints to help people sort through cruising decisions.   I hope you will enjoy your next cruise at the right time for you.   In the meantime you get to miss the 2022 airport experience which I think we all agree is horrible 

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, jlnprt said:

All excellent points, Hank, and I appreciate your thoughts. Maybe I read more into the post than was there. It concerned me that, if the medical staff was told a passenger had breathing issues, and nothing was done, that's scary ... covid or no! With all the covid cases that have happened on board, I would think the medical center would be prepared with oxygen, isolation, etc. I guess I was looking at it as a "worst case" scenario. Breathing issues are scary!

 

Totally agree with you about what would happen if you developed covid at home

I do have an issue if the passenger called the Medical Center and said, "I am having trouble breathing" and was told to do nothing!   When I was a paramedic (in another life) if anyone told me they "were having trouble breathing" we would always take that very seriously (even if indications were to the contrary).  That is not the kind of thing for a house/cabin call, but a true medical emergency until it has been evaluated by a physician or another medical professional.

 

Hank

[Horizon chaser 1957]

30 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I do have an issue if the passenger called the Medical Center and said, "I am having trouble breathing" and was told to do nothing!   When I was a paramedic (in another life) if anyone told me they "were having trouble breathing" we would always take that very seriously (even if indications were to the contrary).  That is not the kind of thing for a house/cabin call, but a true medical emergency until it has been evaluated by a physician or another medical professional.

 

Hank

As a retired Occupational First Aid Attendant, I couldn’t agree more.
That is why the ‘advocate buddy’ is important to me. In multiple blogs and posts of those who have been quarantined on board, the level of service and attention received has ranged from amazing to abysmal.   In the worst case scenario we could both be in quarantine frantically phoning a stressed and busy person can’t or won’t take our calls. That’s when a prearranged person who storms the desk and won’t leave until the situation is understood and acted on is invaluable. Odds are  they won’t be needed, but why take a gamble? Likewise, I don’t plan to break my leg on safari in Africa and need medical attention, but I’ve bought travel medical insurance anyway.

[Boatdrill]

Meanwhile, back to the OP, the post that started this thread....isn't anyone slightly confused about the story ?

Was the husband hospitalized in Europe or in the US ? If it was in Europe, post-cruise, chances are the ship's medical staff made the arrangements for him.  If the ship's medical staff DID make the hospital arrangements, then they were very aware of the couple's health issues.   Also since the OP wrote that "being in Europe, not knowing the language" was a problem,   it makes even more sense that ship's medical staff assisted them.  

The OP also said they "asked for refund" but were told "no." Asked who ? During the cruise ? After the cruise ? Is she saying that they had travel insurance, and the insurance company turned them down ? 

That doesn't sound right, given the hospitalization, and trip interruption (not going to Switzerland and Austria post-cruise).

 

I'm not saying the events didn't happen. There are just some puzzling parts to the story that make it difficult to respond in a meaningful way, as well as learn from their experience. I wish them all the best.    

 

[Boatdrill]

2 hours ago, jlnprt said:

 Maybe I read more into the post than was there. It concerned me that, if the medical staff was told a passenger had breathing issues, and nothing was done, that's scary ... covid or no!

The OP didn't say she told the medical staff about breathing issues. We don't know what specific heath problems she described to them, other than the husband having another issue.

[BermudaBound2014]

4 hours ago, SunNFunCruzer said:

The CDC used a color system and while masks and social distancing were mandated many ships were green. That meant there was very little COVID.  When the mask mandates were lifted and crowds were allowed to gather again (mostly unmasked), COVID positive rates increased, and vacations were ruined. 

 

  I am unaware of any ship that remained green the entire time sailing with passengers even when they had the most strict protocols. Not a single one. Covid made it onboard each and every ship sailing regardless of how many protocols were in place. Every Single One.

 

I do acknowledge that Orange Status became the norm around December/January of last year (fewer green), but you are missing three important variables which  occurred at this time: 

1) Population Density. Ships started turning orange regardless of protocols as soon as sailings occupancy increased.

2) The introduction if Omicron which is much more contagious. EVen ships that didn't change protocols saw a dramatic increase in cases with Omicron.

 

 

I surmise that it wasn't ship protocols that prompted orange status on the vast majority of cruise ships sailing with passengers. Instead, I suggest it was longer, more crowded cruises along with the introduction of a much more easily transmissible variant. 

[AKJonesy]

I mean if the POTUS can get covid twice and he was vaxxed 2X and boosted 2X and he is one of the most protected, if not THE most protected person in the country, it kind of puts things in perspective.  Just sayin'.  Not trying to be smart here, but I'm sure EVERYONE is required to be tested around him, and still.  

[maggieq]

2 minutes ago, AKJonesy said:

I mean if the POTUS can get covid twice and he was vaxxed 2X and boosted 2X and he is one of the most protected, if not THE most protected person in the country, it kind of puts things in perspective.  Just sayin'.  Not trying to be smart here, but I'm sure EVERYONE is required to be tested around him, and still.  

Same with fauci.  They got the rebound after taking paxlovid 

[jlnprt]

2 hours ago, Boatdrill said:

The OP didn't say she told the medical staff about breathing issues. We don't know what specific heath problems she described to them, other than the husband having another issue.

Ahh ... I get that now. I guess it wasn't clear and I just "assumed" she let medical staff know. Good point!

[Hlitner]

43 minutes ago, AKJonesy said:

I mean if the POTUS can get covid twice and he was vaxxed 2X and boosted 2X and he is one of the most protected, if not THE most protected person in the country, it kind of puts things in perspective.  Just sayin'.  Not trying to be smart here, but I'm sure EVERYONE is required to be tested around him, and still.  

You are not being "smart" but simply telling it like it is!  But, CC does not want us getting onto our COVID soapboxes so we do toe the line.  Some folks believe that if they take a few precautions, improperly wear a substandard mask, and eat outdoors rather than in the MDR, they will be safe.  Tell them that some of the most protected folks on earth who do everything right get COVID and they put their fingers in their ears.  Some still believe that wiping down a surface and wearing a mask (part time) is going to keep them safe.  Far be it for me to tell them otherwise.   Their lives are, to a great degree, ruled by their Covid phobia.  When I served in a war zone I quickly learned that living one's life in constant fear is not living..but more like a slow death.  Folks are going to believe what they believe and do what they feel is best and they get my respect for doing what they feel is right.  But I do know that we have lived the past two years without much fear and continued to do what we normally do which is to travel, cruise, and happily socialize just like normal.  Perhaps one day we will get COVID and suffer all that can happen with that awful virus, but at least we will not have spent 2 + years of our life living in constant fear.  Now, many of these folks suffering from Covid phobia are entering their third year of fear and adjusting their life to COVID.  Next year they will enter their 4th year, etc. etc.  God bless them, but it is not our style.  We are seniors and only have a limited amount of time to do the things we love to do.... which includes cruising and travel.

 

Hank

 

 

[dmcfad2]

Just curious as to what happened to the person who wrote the original post in this thread. They haven’t been heard from since.  🤷‍♀️

[Don Kehote]

Just now, dmcfad2 said:

Just curious as to what happened to the person who wrote the original post in this thread. They haven’t been heard from since.  🤷‍♀️

I'm betting they realized that it was turning into a toxic mess, and decided to stay out of it.  Wish I had!

[seaoma]

2 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

  I am unaware of any ship that remained green the entire time sailing with passengers even when they had the most strict protocols. Not a single one. Covid made it onboard each and every ship sailing regardless of how many protocols were in place. Every Single One.

 

I do acknowledge that Orange Status became the norm around December/January of last year (fewer green), but you are missing three important variables which  occurred at this time: 

1) Population Density. Ships started turning orange regardless of protocols as soon as sailings occupancy increased.

2) The introduction if Omicron which is much more contagious. EVen ships that didn't change protocols saw a dramatic increase in cases with Omicron.

 

 

I surmise that it wasn't ship protocols that prompted orange status on the vast majority of cruise ships sailing with passengers. Instead, I suggest it was longer, more crowded cruises along with the introduction of a much more easily transmissible variant. 

 

Actually on the day after masks were discontinued on planes, I have in my notes that there were 24 ships sailing green. 76.5% were non-green, either orange or yellow.

 

Just 2 weeks later, there were 18 ships sailing green and the non-green ships were up to 80%.

 

By July 15, 100% of ships were sailing with non-green status and actually were in the orange zone, which is just below the worst designation, red. The ships have never recovered. 

 

The chart of the Green Status for ships is available, if you want to search the internet. To summarize, it started off in Aug with about 40 ships sailing green. It rose steadily until the end of December to 80 ships. Then January showed a big drop down to green ships numbering in the teens, but began to improve, while Omicron was raging, to about 55 green ships. After the mask mandate was removed from the airplanes and the cruise ships followed shortly after, the green ships went to 0 by early July.

 

The cruise lines have chosen the route they have and even though it doesn't seem to be  improving their business much, they've dug their heels in.

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by seaoma

[seaoma]

44 minutes ago, Don Kehote said:

I'm betting they realized that it was turning into a toxic mess, and decided to stay out of it.  Wish I had!

 

I was going to make a post of the remarks to the OP just on the first page. It's no wonder they didn't come back. 

 

[Webecruzen]

I returned home from my Holland cruise to Alaska and Dh and I both have Covid. Do I blame Holland?  Somewhat, once checked in we were seated shoulder to shoulder back to back in the holding area.  I got yelled at for skipping a chair between me and the next person.  So that is stupid on their part. We wore masks until the fourth day of the cruise. Figuring anyone with a false negative or more recent infection should have symptoms and reported to medical and been quarantined.  However, we were on a tour where several people joined our tour from a land package pre testing before they boarded in Skagway.  Some tested positive once boarding and being tested. As soon as we found they were just joining our cruise untested masks went on.  Another policy I I felt Hal was negligent on.  The reason I feel we caught Covid was from ignorant guests coughing without covering their mouths.  I yelled at many people to cover your damn mouth.  Then the final straw, some real idiot was so nice to his group to turn away from them to sneeze directly at us.  I used language not used in daily life.  I have never seen so many nasty, crude, and rude people in my life.  I guess they never watched Elmo with their kids or grandkids. This was our 6th cruise since restart and first on HAL since 2013.  Alaska was wonderful!  Planning to go back next summer and take our kids and grandkids.  Will likely chose a different line because of this experience.

 

[seaoma]

2 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

I am unaware of any ship that remained green the entire time sailing with passengers even when they had the most strict protocols. Not a single one. Covid made it onboard each and every ship sailing regardless of how many protocols were in place. Every Single One.

 

 

Everyone hammers on this in virtually every post about covid. There is no one on the pro-mitigation sides believes that there will be no covid on ships. What the goal is, is to have less covid on ships.