Does the crew know when we've prepaid gratuities?

[Heidi13]

20 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Humbug (and we said this in another post).  Take a ship like the Koningsdam that may have over 2000 passengers and 1000 crew.  If one passenger removes their auto tips ("crew appreciation") do you think that the ship sends out some kind of magic bulletin to 1000 crew members saying "Attention:  So and so has removed their "crew appreciation?"  And even if they could do something like that, how many of those 1000 crew would even have a clue as to what they person looked like.  Ohh.  I guess they are also sending out your photo to those same 1000 crew  Or perhaps they are printing large "Wanted Posters" that have your name and picture and are posted all over the crew area 🙂

 

I do think the crew has other issues of more importance.

 

Hank

 

At least on Princess, this information is distributed to the crew. The Purser sends out reports, which work down the chain of command. Cabin Stewards are advised by their Accommodation Supervisors, the name and cabin number of any pax removing the DSC and if at a fixed table, the wait staff at the table are advised by their Head Waiter.

 

They most definitely can disseminate this information.

[Charles4515]

30 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

They most definitely can disseminate this information.

One time I saw the list laying on the cabin stewards cart in the hall. 

[shipgeeks]

We once shared a dinner table with two men who were quite entertaining, but apparently "rascals" in their ploys to get around some of the rules.  One evening they told us about the galley tour they had done, during which they slipped away from the group and entered a crew area. There, on the wall, were their pictures.  They thought that was hilarious; I would be mortified.

[Dancer Bob]

JP Morgan may have CLAIMED to want to make crews work harder, but what evidence do you have that his real motivation was not simply to avoid paying wages? What numbers establish that lines like Seabourne have low wages? Most reviews gush about the service on premium lines, there's a logical disconnect here.

In the EU, a mandatory service charge is commonly either shown separately, or included in the price. I've been told EU lines have to comply with EU labour laws. It's my (also anecdotal) understanding Cunard changed registry to Bermuda not so "Captains can perform marriages" but to dodge UK wage increases.

I might have phrased it differently, but I think I agree completely with Hlitner. I once reduced gratuities on Cunard because I was so disappointed in the restaurant. I then found the buffet was outstanding, it was a major headache to reward these people.

[shipgeeks]

7 minutes ago, Dancer Bob said:

 I once reduced gratuities on Cunard because I was so disappointed in the restaurant. I then found the buffet was outstanding, it was a major headache to reward these people.

I'm not certain about Cunard, but typically the crew in a buffet also work in MDR. So it annoys me when people say they remove their gratuities because they only eat in the buffet "where I serve myself".

[wowzz]

5 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

At least on Princess, this information is distributed to the crew. The Purser sends out reports, which work down the chain of command. Cabin Stewards are advised by their Accommodation Supervisors, the name and cabin number of any pax removing the DSC and if at a fixed table, the wait staff at the table are advised by their Head Waiter.

 

They most definitely can disseminate this information.

So, if the crew know the individuals who have removed the autotips,  will they work harder for those individuals,  in the expectation that they will  get a large cash tip ?

And I know in such situations tips are meant to be handed in, but if you get given a $100 tip, there must be a temptation to keep, say $20,  for yourself. 

[navybankerteacher]

29 minutes ago, shipgeeks said:

I'm not certain about Cunard, but typically the crew in a buffet also work in MDR. So it annoys me when people say they remove their gratuities because they only eat in the buffet "where I serve myself".

Of course, that is just one of the many justifications the cheap creeps will use.  At least NCL (because they know their market demographic) make it very difficult to reduce/remove gratuities:  it can only be done after returning home after the cruise.  When it is too easy, such cuts are more likely.

[wowzz]

9 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course, that is just one of the many justifications the cheap creeps will use.  At least NCL (because they know their market demographic) make it very difficult to reduce/remove gratuities:  it can only be done after returning home after the cruise.  When it is too easy, such cuts are more likely.

The other alternative of course, is to roll the autotips into the fare - then the cheapskates cannot remove them.

[Charles4515]

25 minutes ago, wowzz said:

So, if the crew know the individuals who have removed the autotips,  will they work harder for those individuals,  in the expectation that they will  get a large cash tip ?

And I know in such situations tips are meant to be handed in, but if you get given a $100 tip, there must be a temptation to keep, say $20,  for yourself. 

They probably don't expect to get a tip from those who remove the auto tips. Despite the claims some here  make that they remove them and pay cash many are lying.

 

In any case the crew gets the list because if someone paid  the autotips and pays an additional cash tip as many do,  the crew does not have to put that cash into the pool. Any cash under that has to go into the pool. So the crew needs to know.

 

Also the cruise line has an algorithm  of what cash tips will be from those who remove auto gratuities. If more don't actually tip a crew member what the algoritm predicts the crew member is going to have to make it up. That is how the share of the pool is figured. So not turning in all the cash and getting caught probably is not worth the risk. 

[njhorseman]

23 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

 At least NCL (because they know their market demographic) make it very difficult to reduce/remove gratuities:  it can only be done after returning home after the cruise.

Absolutely false. If you want to remove or reduce the daily service charge you go to the guest services desk on board and complete a form requesting removal or reduction of the service charge.

https://www.ncl.com/faq#!#what-is-onboard-service-charge

If there is a service issue can the service charges be adjusted on board?
Guest satisfaction is the highest priority at Norwegian Cruise Line. We have structured a guest satisfaction program designed to handle any concerns about service or on-board product quickly and efficiently. However, in the event a service issue should arise during your cruise please let our on-board guest services desk staff know right away, so that we can address these in a timely manner. It is our goal to reach a satisfactory solution to any issue when it happens and make sure our guests can focus on enjoying their cruise. Should your concerns not be met with satisfaction you can adjust the charges.

[Heidi13]

18 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

They probably don't expect to get a tip from those who remove the auto tips. Despite the claims some here  make that they remove them and pay cash many are lying.

 

In any case the crew gets the list because if someone paid  the autotips and pays an additional cash tip as many do,  the crew does not have to put that cash into the pool. Any cash under that has to go into the pool. So the crew needs to know.

 

Also the cruise line has an algorithm  of what cash tips will be from those who remove auto gratuities. If more don't actually tip a crew member what the algoritm predicts the crew member is going to have to make it up. That is how the share of the pool is figured. So not turning in all the cash and getting caught probably is not worth the risk. 

 

Definitely not worth the risk, as they would probably be terminated.

[sanger727]

I really don’t think you will see any response by the crew to ‘prepaid’ service charge. If it’s pre-paid you paid. most people who don’t prepay will be charged the service charge without incident. All the same for the crew. The handful of people that reduce or remove the service charge at the beginning or mid cruise may receive a decrease in services. I wouldn’t be concerned either way as long as you don’t plan on being in the last group. 

[navybankerteacher]

52 minutes ago, wowzz said:

The other alternative of course, is to roll the autotips into the fare - then the cheapskates cannot remove them.

But the mass market cruise lines depend on the “mass market” - which is largely made up of bargain hunters - many of whom can barely afford to cruise - and some fair number of them wil remove service charges if possible.

 

It would be interesting to learn the number of passengers, by cruise line, who do reduce/remove service charges.

 

[GeezerCouple]

41 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

But the mass market cruise lines depend on the “mass market” - which is largely made up of bargain hunters - many of whom can barely afford to cruise - and some fair number of them wil remove service charges if possible.

 

It would be interesting to learn the number of passengers, by cruise line, who do reduce/remove service charges.

 

 

Cruise line perhaps, and also cabin category/cost.

 

There are often higher "service charges" for suites or such, but it's typically not a lot more.

But it's the same, as far as I know, for all or most of the "regular" cabins.  And those price points can vary dramatically, from the ultra-cheap insides to some of the nicer "just barely under suite" category.  That service charge will be a much higher percentage for those lower cost cabins, and might "make a real difference" for someone who is barely able to afford the trip.

 

I wouldn't expect those who can barely afford to cruise (this is different from those who can easily afford it but just want to be frugal and an "inside" is quite fine, etc.) IF they remove the service fee to then tip separately.  Or not most of that group anyway.

Perhaps some of them wouldn't take the cruise if the service fee was bundled into the cruise fare, but I wish they would do the bundling.  I suspect many of them would still take the cruise. The stewards also work hard to change linens and clean bathrooms, etc, in the inside cabins, not just in the higher priced-accommodations.

 

I remember way back, mid-70s, when the "tips" were handled by the steward arriving the final evening/night, to the cabin, to collect the "tip envelope" that had already been provided, complete with cabin number pre-printed.  It was a very unpleasant "in your face" coercion-like experience, and it eliminated any good feelings about giving a tip for good service.

GC

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, njhorseman said:

Absolutely false. If you want to remove or reduce the daily service charge you go to the guest services desk on board and complete a form requesting removal or reduction of the service charge.

https://www.ncl.com/faq#!#what-is-onboard-service-charge

If there is a service issue can the service charges be adjusted on board?
Guest satisfaction is the highest priority at Norwegian Cruise Line. We have structured a guest satisfaction program designed to handle any concerns about service or on-board product quickly and efficiently. However, in the event a service issue should arise during your cruise please let our on-board guest services desk staff know right away, so that we can address these in a timely manner. It is our goal to reach a satisfactory solution to any issue when it happens and make sure our guests can focus on enjoying their cruise. Should your concerns not be met with satisfaction you can adjust the charges.

I suggest you read the ncl faq bit you cited.  In detail, it says nothing about reducing or removing the service charge -- it does state that the service charge is "REFUNDABLE" -- which means after the fact, and is rather different from removing or reducing it.

[njhorseman]

37 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

I suggest you read the ncl faq bit you cited.  In detail, it says nothing about reducing or removing the service charge -- it does state that the service charge is "REFUNDABLE" -- which means after the fact, and is rather different from removing or reducing it.

I suggest you read your own words which falsely claim that the process is difficult and can only be done after returning home.

The process is easy. You fill out the form on board and your charges are adjusted. You're twisting the FAQ words to fit your narrative. 

I realize it's a total waste of time to discuss anything about NCL with you. For whatever the reason you have a long standing hatred of that cruise line and will say anything to knock it, whether your point has any foundation in fact or not. To boot your stereotyping of mass market cruise line passengers in general  is nothing short of totally offensive. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[navybankerteacher]

16 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

I suggest you read your own words which falsely claim that the process is difficult and can only be done after returning home.

The process is easy. You fill out the form on board and your charges are adjusted. You're twisting the FAQ words to fit your narrative. 

I realize it's a total waste of time to discuss anything about NCL with you. For whatever the reason you have a long standing hatred of that cruise line and will say anything to knock it, whether your point has any foundation in fact or not. To boot your stereotyping of mass market cruise line passengers in general  is nothing short of totally offensive. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are avoiding the subject under discussion: whether NCL permits on board reduction/removal of service charges or if the way they adjust service charges is by requiring the passenger to submit a request for refund - to be processed after debarking.  

 

True - I do not particularly like NCL: the size and passenger capacity of their ships, the minimal quality of included dining, my perception of the shortage of public space as compared with other lines;  but these views have little to do with the subject.

Edited December 25, 2022 by navybankerteacher

[wowzz]

7 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

But the mass market cruise lines depend on the “mass market” - which is largely made up of bargain hunters - many of whom can barely afford to cruise - and some fair number of them wil remove service charges if possible.

 

It would be interesting to learn the number of passengers, by cruise line, who do reduce/remove service charges.

 

But some mass market lines (P&O,  Marella -TUI etc) have removed autotips, so it can be done. 

Edited December 25, 2022 by wowzz

[wowzz]

8 hours ago, Charles4515 said:

That is how the share of the pool is figured. So not turning in all the cash and getting caught probably is not worth the risk. 

Although, as has been pointed out, the "pool" in some cases is fleet wide, and the distribution of the pool is never clearly described. 

It would be interesting to know exactly how much your steward, for example, gets from the typical $15 pppd auto gratuity payment. Given the number of people in the tip pool these days, I'm guessing not much.

[njhorseman]

7 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

You are avoiding the subject under discussion: whether NCL permits on board reduction/removal of service charges or if the way they adjust service charges is by requiring the passenger to submit a request for refund - to be processed after debarking.  

 

True - I do not particularly like NCL: the size and passenger capacity of their ships, the minimal quality of included dining, my perception of the shortage of public space as compared with other lines;  but these views have little to do with the subject.

I don't recall seeing a single post on the NCL board complaining that the refunding of removed service charges only occurred after disembarkation. Nor have I  heard anything like that from another passenger while on board .

Since people complain about the most insignificant issues on a daily basis I find it unbelievable that refunds are only made after disembarkation . There would be continual howling about it, but just the opposite is true..not one person has mentioned anything of the sort...except you...someone who wouldn't cruise on NCL if they were paying you to do it. 

 

What evidence do you have to support your claim? I'm not interested in something that happened years ago, any more than I would give any credence to a 10 year old restaurant review.  Something could have been true in the past but no longer is.

[Toofarfromthesea]

On 12/23/2022 at 10:40 PM, Donald said:

You may be surprised to learn that this tipping / service charge / crew appreciation system was first introduced on British Ships (White Star Line) by an American (J.P. Morgan) soon after he purchased the Line in 1902.

He reasoned that the crew would work harder and better if their compensation depended solely on performance. That is, the passengers were encouraged to tip those crew who went above and beyond in their duties. Poor performing crew would earn less, and either decide to work harder - or leave.

It was an interesting idea that soon morphed completely away from its original intent.

 

With the current version of “crew appreciation” on most mass market ships, crew who do a great job earn substantially more than the crew who work on the luxury no-tipping lines, like Seabourn. 

 

 

Sounds like a merit-based system morphed, over time, into a participation trophy philosophy.

[navybankerteacher]

6 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

 

Sounds like a merit-based system morphed, over time, into a participation trophy philosophy.

Precisely.  And the only real reason for retaining the system is that it provides cruise lines (primarily those US focused) to advertise tempting low fares.  
 

Once tipping ceased to be a matter of individual passengers acknowledging superior performance by individual staff members, the system lost most of its validity.  The only arguably valid point at this time is that it makes a portion of what the passenger pays adjustable as a means of protesting against poor service.   

Edited December 25, 2022 by navybankerteacher

[BruceMuzz]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

Precisely.  And the only real reason for retaining the system is that it provides cruise lines (primarily those US focused) to advertise tempting low fares.  
 

Once tipping ceased to be a matter of individual passengers acknowledging superior performance by individual staff members, the system lost most of its validity.  The only arguably valid point at this time is that it makes a portion of what the passenger pays adjustable as a means of protesting against poor service.   

On the positive side, it also makes a portion of what the passenger pays adjustable as a means of rewarding and recognizing exceptional service.

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, BruceMuzz said:

On the positive side, it also makes a portion of what the passenger pays adjustable as a means of rewarding and recognizing exceptional service.

But to the extent service charges are distributed fleet-wide (or at least ship-wide) they really do not flow to the individual crew members who provided such exceptional service.  They are simply a source of funds for the line's crew compensation.

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, BruceMuzz said:

On the positive side, it also makes a portion of what the passenger pays adjustable as a means of rewarding and recognizing exceptional service.

Adjustable by who?  Certainly not by the passengers paying the dollars.  If you are still living in Japan, just take a good look at how the Japanese deal with tipping. :).

 

Hank