New CEO of Celebrity Interesting but happy they stay within for promotions.

[Honolulu Blue]

17 minutes ago, LetsGoToo said:

I’m what way? Celebrity has newer ships, more ships, better food, and better service. Plus, it’s in a much more strong financial position than Carnival or Virgin. 

Princess has more ships than Celebrity.

 

Yes, Celebrity has plenty of nice and new ships, but so does the competition.  Virgin's oldest ship is only 3 years old.

 

Food and service quality are highly subjective and even more highly situational.  Celebrity might be best, but the other guys are pretty good too.

 

VV is privately held and I don't have any idea about their overall financial position.  RCG is better off than CCL, true, but they've got a ton of debt that needs to be dealt with sometime, somehow.

[Ipeeinthepools]

3 hours ago, LetsGoToo said:

... Plus, it’s in a much more strong financial position than Carnival or Virgin. 

 

Really?  I'm really not sure how Royal or Celebrity's financial position compares to Carnival or Virgin but you need to view financial performance on an absolute scale non a relative comparison.  All of the cruise lines took on a lot of debt and are in bad financial condition.  Even if your correct on a relative basis, Royal or Celebrity would only be the best house in a bad neighborhood.  

 

[Ipeeinthepools]

6 hours ago, jelayne said:

....

The E class ships are beautiful and many things that early Edge cruisers complained about were changed or improved on the next ships (rockers in SS, no shade at Sunset bar, frosted glass on the IV folding doors, no shade on the Retreat Sun Deck).  She listened and changed things that didn’t work....

 

 

 

Really?  LLP approved the E-class ship concept that eliminated the most common type of cabin on the ship for an unproved concept of the IV balconies.  For years cruise lines saw the importance of balcony cabins and tried to add as many as possible and LLP eliminated those cabins for the non-suite guests.  For passengers that actually use their balcony to sit outside by the ocean, the IV balconies are a non-starter and force those passengers to move to other cruise lines.  The IV balconies also resulted in the ridiculous miniature dollhouse furniture because nothing else fit on the IV balconies.  And tell me again, what's the purpose of the Magic Carpet?  Another expensive ill-conceived addition to the E-class ships.  While we're on the subject of ill-conceived, has anyone forgot about the Eden concept?  All of these issues are still in the E-class ships.  Any CEO that alienates a large portion of the cruise passengers should be sent to the exit gates.  Unfortunately, the E-class ships will still be around after many of us are gone. 

 

Although not unique to the E-class ships, has anyone forgot about Goop?  Who takes responsibility for approving that silly program.

 

The fact that LLP is near retirement age only hides these issues.

 

Bye-bye LLP, many of us won't miss you.

[DirtyDawg]

13 minutes ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

 

Really?  I'm really not sure how Royal or Celebrity's financial position compares to Carnival or Virgin but you need to view financial performance on an absolute scale non a relative comparison.  All of the cruise lines took on a lot of debt and are in bad financial condition.  Even if your correct on a relative basis, Royal or Celebrity would only be the best house in a bad neighborhood.  

 

And when they were building that 'best house', they forgot to include a proper foundation.

 

😉

 

[bikerunner]

Interesting to see the complaints and gratitude's that are given on the various aspects of what there is and what there isn't with Celebrity.  Mainly The E class is not for everyone, but with Celebrity building a 5th there is a big draw from the customers.  The goal of a publicly traded company is to satisfy the stakeholders.  With E class helping bring in higher end suite revenue and many people enjoying them the few who complain about no balconies is minor to them, they have record bookings, ships back to sailing just about full.  They still have ships that have balconies, but people complain that they are not the new ones.  The S class and M class ships are in great shape, anyone who has been on them, with a few decenters overall love them still, my favorite still currently next to the old Mercury Class.  A company cannot please everyone, pretty much impossible.  I personally have not been on E class yet but have many family and friends who rave about them, and this is from boomers to millennials saying this overall.  Food has always been subjective, I have never had any issues and I have a background in Hospitality, Chef title included.  The ships these days seem to be being built for unique travel experiences.  They are not just meant to be a floating hotel anymore but now also a destination in itself overall.  

[Ipeeinthepools]

15 minutes ago, bikerunner said:

Interesting to see the complaints and gratitude's that are given on the various aspects of what there is and what there isn't with Celebrity.  Mainly The E class is not for everyone, but with Celebrity building a 5th there is a big draw from the customers.  The goal of a publicly traded company is to satisfy the stakeholders.  With E class helping bring in higher end suite revenue and many people enjoying them the few who complain about no balconies is minor to them, they have record bookings, ships back to sailing just about full.  They still have ships that have balconies, but people complain that they are not the new ones.  The S class and M class ships are in great shape, anyone who has been on them, with a few decenters overall love them still, my favorite still currently next to the old Mercury Class.  A company cannot please everyone, pretty much impossible.  I personally have not been on E class yet but have many family and friends who rave about them, and this is from boomers to millennials saying this overall.  Food has always been subjective, I have never had any issues and I have a background in Hospitality, Chef title included.  The ships these days seem to be being built for unique travel experiences.  They are not just meant to be a floating hotel anymore but now also a destination in itself overall.  

 

The issue with the IV cabins is that it wasn't necessary for everything that you may like about the E-class ships.  The suites have balconies, so there isn't anything integral to the ships design that prohibit traditional balconies.  There simply wasn't any reason to change the signature feature of the most common type of cabin.  Just a bad decision.

[Ex-Airbalancer]

6 minutes ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

 

The issue with the IV cabins is that it wasn't necessary for everything that you may like about the E-class ships.  The suites have balconies, so there isn't anything integral to the ships design that prohibit traditional balconies.  There simply wasn't any reason to change the signature feature of the most common type of cabin.  Just a bad decision.

I bet you will see all RCL  new class ships  also have IV, Iconic has them 

[Ipeeinthepools]

3 minutes ago, Ex-Airbalancer said:

I bet you will see all RCL  new class ships  also have IV, Iconic has them 

 

You're correct, but it will only be a small number of cabins not completely eliminating the most common type of cabin.  MSC also has some but they are not advertised as a balcony cabin.  If you have a few of these cabins, I think they could be marketed as an enhanced ocean view cabin.  Eliminating the most common type of cabin was just plain dumb.

[LetsGoToo]

2 hours ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

 

Really?  I'm really not sure how Royal or Celebrity's financial position compares to Carnival or Virgin but you need to view financial performance on an absolute scale non a relative comparison.  All of the cruise lines took on a lot of debt and are in bad financial condition.  Even if your correct on a relative basis, Royal or Celebrity would only be the best house in a bad neighborhood.  

 

Well Carnival is paying higher rates on its debt than RC and RC's stock has a more favorable outlook from stock analysts than Carnival. 

 

Virgin's info isn't public but what we do know is that starting up doing the pandemic really hurt them and that they were running many cruises late last year and early this year at losses. They just announced another capital raise this week. Richard Branson only has a token investment in Virgin Voyages. 

[Ipeeinthepools]

4 minutes ago, LetsGoToo said:

Well Carnival is paying higher rates on its debt than RC and RC's stock has a more favorable outlook from stock analysts than Carnival. 

 

Virgin's info isn't public but what we do know is that starting up doing the pandemic really hurt them and that they were running many cruises late last year and early this year at losses. They just announced another capital raise this week. Richard Branson only has a token investment in Virgin Voyages. 

 

That may well be true but it doesn't change the fact that RC is in poor financial shape.  RC borrowed billions to stay in business and doesn't have any new sources of revenue to repay the debt.  BTW are those the same financial analysts that were recommending Silicon Valley Bank just a few weeks ago?

Edited April 7, 2023 by Ipeeinthepools

[LetsGoToo]

6 hours ago, Honolulu Blue said:

Princess has more ships than Celebrity.

Actually, both have 15 and Celebrity has another one coming into service this year.

[LetsGoToo]

2 minutes ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

 

That may well be true but it doesn't change the fact that RC is in poor financial shape.  RC borrowed billions to stay in business and doesn't have any new sources of revenue to repay the debt.  BTW are those the same financial analysts that were recommending Silicon Valley Bank just a few weeks ago?

 

Actually, what a company (or a person) pays for its debt is a pretty good indicator of creditworthiness.

 

Carnival is paying more on its debt than Royal Caribbean.

[Jeremiah1212]

Some interesting perspective. Some ignorant perspective. Some WAG passed as fact. 

 

In reality she's a 65 (66 at retirement) year old who is wrapping up a 40 year career with the past 3 years being undoubtedly a bigger sh!tshow than anyone would have ever imaged prior to Feb 2020. Things are finally returning to some sense of normalcy and she can exit in a much more calm environment and finally have time to fully enjoy retirement and the sizable amount she has earned. 

[drakes2]

3 hours ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

 

Really?  LLP approved the E-class ship concept that eliminated the most common type of cabin on the ship for an unproved concept of the IV balconies.  For years cruise lines saw the importance of balcony cabins and tried to add as many as possible and LLP eliminated those cabins for the non-suite guests.  For passengers that actually use their balcony to sit outside by the ocean, the IV balconies are a non-starter and force those passengers to move to other cruise lines.  The IV balconies also resulted in the ridiculous miniature dollhouse furniture because nothing else fit on the IV balconies.  And tell me again, what's the purpose of the Magic Carpet?  Another expensive ill-conceived addition to the E-class ships.  While we're on the subject of ill-conceived, has anyone forgot about the Eden concept?  All of these issues are still in the E-class ships.  Any CEO that alienates a large portion of the cruise passengers should be sent to the exit gates.  Unfortunately, the E-class ships will still be around after many of us are gone. 

 

Although not unique to the E-class ships, has anyone forgot about Goop?  Who takes responsibility for approving that silly program.

 

The fact that LLP is near retirement age only hides these issues.

 

Bye-bye LLP, many of us won't miss you.

Well said. 

[NMTraveller]

11 hours ago, jelayne said:

The E class ships are beautiful and many things that early Edge cruisers complained about were changed or improved on the next ships (rockers in SS, no shade at Sunset bar, frosted glass on the IV folding doors, no shade on the Retreat Sun Deck).  She listened and changed things that didn’t work.  
 

They put real balconies back on the ship?

[bikerunner]

1 hour ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

 

The issue with the IV cabins is that it wasn't necessary for everything that you may like about the E-class ships.  The suites have balconies, so there isn't anything integral to the ships design that prohibit traditional balconies.  There simply wasn't any reason to change the signature feature of the most common type of cabin.  Just a bad decision.

I agree and also disagree with the IV cabins.  Innovation always is taking a chance.  Overall yes they might have alienated some of their clientele but also brought in many new cruisers, there filling these ships and still have 2 coming in the next few years.  The long time cruisers many are not fans, but with that many people also like the extra space the IV brings.  It's also not like celebrity does not have other options besides the IV/Edge class ships, 8 of their ships still have the traditional balconies available.    

[Jjohnb]

20 hours ago, Honolulu Blue said:

I also wonder if all the backlash for X's numerous dining changes starting a few months ago caused her to accept this new position.  We'll probably never know.

I think just the opposite, all of the changes, i.e. cost cutting (at both Celebrity and Royal) are coming straight from Jason Liberty's desk, Lisa just took the heat for it from unhappy X cruisers .  Laura Hodges Bethge's last position is Exec VP of Shared Services, i.e. she has an extensive background in cost containment and cutting, I wouldn't be surprised to see many more changes coming in the near future.

 

[NMTraveller]

3 minutes ago, Jjohnb said:

I think just the opposite, all of the changes, i.e. cost cutting (at both Celebrity and Royal) are coming straight from Jason Liberty's desk, Lisa just took the heat for it from unhappy X cruisers .  Laura Hodges Bethge's last position is Exec VP of Shared Services, i.e. she has an extensive background in cost containment and cutting, I wouldn't be surprised to see many more changes coming in the near future.

 

That is the issue.  Most of the "changes" lately have been cuts.  Whether it is IVs,  MDR food, or loss of the Sky Lounge to put in more suites.

Edited April 7, 2023 by NMTraveller

[Jeremiah1212]

4 minutes ago, bikerunner said:

I agree and also disagree with the IV cabins.  Innovation always is taking a chance.  Overall yes they might have alienated some of their clientele but also brought in many new cruisers, there filling these ships and still have 2 coming in the next few years.  The long time cruisers many are not fans, but with that many people also like the extra space the IV brings.  It's also not like celebrity does not have other options besides the IV/Edge class ships, 8 of their ships still have the traditional balconies available.    

 

👍 As they say, out with the old, in with the new. Harsh reality for some, but that's how it goes.

 

Remember all the complaints on here that Oasis class would be the end of Royal Caribbean? There was no way they could survive that monstrosity? It was a massive failure before it even launched? Well...

[DirtyDawg]

1 hour ago, LetsGoToo said:

Well Carnival is paying higher rates on its debt than RC and RC's stock has a more favorable outlook from stock analysts than Carnival. 

 

Virgin's info isn't public but what we do know is that starting up doing the pandemic really hurt them and that they were running many cruises late last year and early this year at losses. They just announced another capital raise this week. Richard Branson only has a token investment in Virgin Voyages. 

Paying a higher rate on debt is also affected by the maturity of the debt and the timing of when the debt was issued. What you need to compare is the current yield to maturity of debt securities with similar features and similar maturities to see how the market is currently assessing the relative riskiness of each company. 

 

The YTM on Carnival bonds are a lot higher than Royals' of similar maturity right now. And Royal's is a lot higher than high quality Corporates right now. 

 

Put another way, if high quality corporate bonds were a BMW M8, Royal's bonds would be a Ford Pinto and Carnival's bonds would be an AMC Gremlin. 😉

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by DirtyDawg

[Ipeeinthepools]

8 minutes ago, DirtyDawg said:

Paying a higher rate on debt is also affected by the maturity of the debt and the timing of when the debt was issued. What you need to compare is the current yield to maturity of debt securities with similar features and similar maturities to see how the market is currently assessing the relative riskiness of each company. 

 

The YTM on Carnival bonds are a lot higher than Royals' of similar maturity right now. And Royal's is a lot higher than high quality Corporates right now. 

 

Put another way, if high quality corporate bonds were a BMW M8, Royal's bonds would be a Ford Pinto and Carnival's bonds would be an AMC Gremlin. 😉

 

 

Ok, I'll go with your analogy.  Celebrity's debt is the best car in a bad garage.  

 

BTW, the fact that we can discuss Pintos and Gremlins and understand they are cars says a lot about the Celebrity Demographic. 

[Ipeeinthepools]

22 minutes ago, bikerunner said:

I agree and also disagree with the IV cabins.  Innovation always is taking a chance.  Overall yes they might have alienated some of their clientele but also brought in many new cruisers, there filling these ships and still have 2 coming in the next few years.  The long time cruisers many are not fans, but with that many people also like the extra space the IV brings.  It's also not like celebrity does not have other options besides the IV/Edge class ships, 8 of their ships still have the traditional balconies available.    

 

I'll agree and disagree.  Innovation always takes a chance, but there was no need to eliminate all of the non-suite balcony cabins without understanding how many people use their balconies.  I'll also agree that IV cabins may be better for people that don't spend a lot of time on the balconies.  But the IV's are simply a big miss for anyone that enjoys spending a lot of time on the balcony.  Actually, I like the concept as an alternative to an ocean view cabin, I think you could charge a significant price increase over ocean view cabins.  But there was simply no need to eliminate all of the traditional balcony cabins.  MSC and Royal understood that, it's too bad Celebrity didn't.  Someone at Celebrity needs to be held accountable for that decision and LLP was the person at the top.

[DirtyDawg]

7 minutes ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

 

Ok, I'll go with your analogy.  Celebrity's debt is the best car in a bad garage.  

 

BTW, the fact that we can discuss Pintos and Gremlins and understand they are cars says a lot about the Celebrity Demographic. 

I was going to use the Lada Signet, the Soviet made peace of junk, instead of the Gremlin but I don't think they ever were imported into the U.S. Lucky you!

[Honolulu Blue]

2 hours ago, LetsGoToo said:

Actually, both have 15 and Celebrity has another one coming into service this year.

You're right, and thank you for the clarification.  Two points before I leave this:

 

1. Three of Celebrity's ships are expedition ships, which are far smaller than any other ship that they or Princess have.  Princess doesn't have any expedition ships.
2. Princess has a ship scheduled to start cruising in 2024 and another one in 2025.  I don't know Celebrity's new build schedule other than the Ascent.

[NutsAboutGolf]

8 hours ago, Honolulu Blue said:

Princess has more ships than Celebrity.

 

Yes, Celebrity has plenty of nice and new ships, but so does the competition.  Virgin's oldest ship is only 3 years old.

 

Food and service quality are highly subjective and even more highly situational.  Celebrity might be best, but the other guys are pretty good too.

 

VV is privately held and I don't have any idea about their overall financial position.  RCG is better off than CCL, true, but they've got a ton of debt that needs to be dealt with sometime, somehow.

 

Perhaps to the X cheerleaders who haven't been on other lines but CC as a whole doesn't think so