Alaska Airlines and Hawaiian Airlines to combine.

[AZjohn]

8 hours ago, iamaqt2 said:

From SEA?  

Yep

Here are an few examples:

[Gardyloo]

11 hours ago, iamaqt2 said:

People valued HA because of the direct flights offered.  Southwest cannot offer direct flights from Seattle.

Southwest flies nonstop from Oakland, Las Vegas, San Diego, San Jose, Phoenix and Sacramento to Honolulu.  Both LAS-HNL and PHX-HNL are farther than SEA-HNL. Their ETOPS* rated fleet continues to grow.  

 

*Extended-range Twin-engine Operations Performance Standards, or more commonly, "Engines turn or passengers swim."

Edited December 4, 2023 by Gardyloo

[highloyo]

1 hour ago, Yehootu said:

I go back to when we were really an Ohana, the Mr Magoon days.Dunkerly was the one who started bringing in mainland people ih upper management and bypassing local people that had been with the company for many years. Dunkerly did transition the airline to the Airbus fleet and was rewarded with a Director position at Airbus. The present CEO Peter Ingram put his house up for sale 3 weeks ago, wonder where he'll land.

I agree with you but my concern way back then was HA was always under threats of Ch 11 every few years. True, MD brought in a new management but part of that was needed to turn the company around. MD knew he had to win the confidence of locals and did much to blend into the community and culture. Shareholder value and profitability had never been higher under MD. Employees, including my now retired wife, were saddened when it was announced he was leaving. 

[Zach1213]

21 minutes ago, Gardyloo said:

Southwest flies nonstop from Oakland, Las Vegas, San Diego, San Jose, Phoenix and Sacramento to Honolulu.  Both LAS-HNL and PHX-HNL are farther than SEA-HNL. Their ETOPS* rated fleet continues to grow.  

 

*Extended-range Twin-engine Operations Performance Standards, or more commonly, "Engines turn or passengers swim."

 

Southwest's Hawaii network is surprisingly big. They also do LAX-HNL and LGB-HNL, and various other airports in Hawaii are served from the mainland (Kona, Lihue, and Maui). They also have a decently size intra-island network, including Hilo in additional to those other airports. 

 

One of the issues Southwest always had was that they were not only lacking ETOPS planes, but weren't an ETOPS approved airline. Obviously that has all changed now and there's nothing technically stopping them from SEA-Hawaii as you mention. 

[Yehootu]

This morning's news had the CEOs of both airlines on and they are saying for now, that it will be operated as 2 seperate brands. The first time in US aviation, but not in International. BA and Swiss Air, KLM, Air France and a few more.

[LouChamp]

7 hours ago, Yehootu said:

I go back to when we were really an Ohana, the Mr Magoon days.Dunkerly was the one who started bringing in mainland people ih upper management and bypassing local people that had been with the company for many years. Dunkerly did transition the airline to the Airbus fleet and was rewarded with a Director position at Airbus. The present CEO Peter Ingram put his house up for sale 3 weeks ago, wonder where he'll land.

Aloha. Interesting about Ingram. I just can’t help but feel sad because HA hires multi generational people and while the business community applauds the deal I worry the atmosphere will change.

[klfrodo]

1 hour ago, LouChamp said:

 I worry the atmosphere will change.

I understand your concern. I also understand that the only thing constant in life is change.

Having said that, my experience with Alaska, having flown them for 20 years with many of those miles flying within Alaska, while there has been changes in that time, the cultural sensitivity and services directed towards the Alaska native community has been upheld to a high degree. As good as it once was? No. But corporate greed has not been the primary motivational factor when it concerned the Alaskan natives. They saved that greed for the lower 48 🤣 Their 49 Club has some good bennies.

Edited December 4, 2023 by klfrodo

[kiwimum]

Nobody is mentioning the Hawaiian Airline routes that Alaska does not service.  South Pacific, Asia.   Huge markets.

Edited December 5, 2023 by kiwimum

[Yehootu]

2 hours ago, kiwimum said:

Nobody is mentioning the Hawaiian Airline routes that Alaska does not service.  South Pacific, Asia.   Huge markets.

One of the factors in HALs decision is that it's International markets that got devistated during Covid are still a money loser and not forecasted to come back for another 2-3 years. Couple that with having to replace the 717's, engine repairs on the A321 Neos and the introduction of a new fleet, the 787 the financial outlook wasn't the best. 

[Gardyloo]

12 hours ago, kiwimum said:

Nobody is mentioning the Hawaiian Airline routes that Alaska does not service.  South Pacific, Asia.   Huge markets.

 

9 hours ago, Yehootu said:

One of the factors in HALs decision is that it's International markets that got devistated during Covid are still a money loser and not forecasted to come back for another 2-3 years. Couple that with having to replace the 717's, engine repairs on the A321 Neos and the introduction of a new fleet, the 787 the financial outlook wasn't the best. 

 I came across this map overlaying the two airlines' routes - pretty impressive.

 

This is where Alaska's acquisition of Hawaiian might make a major difference in terms of alliances.  As part of AS, HA will be joining Oneworld, which at present has miserable coverage in the South Pacific, with very limited service by Qantas to a couple of locations, namely Noumea and Fiji, but then only a couple of times a week. 

 

With HA/AS entering the picture, I could see a strong case being made for Qantas/AS codeshares and "fifth freedom" flights to allow transpacific connections through Tahiti, or American Samoa, or maybe a new HNL-NAN (Nadi, Fiji) route that could open a whole new t-pac route and capture part of the enormous demand by Aussies for travel to the Pacific islands.   The last time any Oneworld carrier served Tahiti was Lan Chile/Latam with connecting service through Easter Island to Santiago.  Since Latam exited Oneworld a couple of years ago, Tahiti has been the sold province of Air France and their partner Air Tahiti Nui.  That could change big time.  

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Gardyloo

[Yehootu]

2 minutes ago, Gardyloo said:

 

 I came across this map overlaying the two airlines' routes - pretty impressive.

 

This is where Alaska's acquisition of Hawaiian might make a major difference in terms of alliances.  As part of AS, HA will be joining Oneworld, which at present has miserable coverage in the South Pacific, with at present very limited service by Qantas to a couple of locations, namely Noumea and Fiji, but then only a couple of times a week. 

 

With HA/AS entering the picture, I could see a strong case being made for Qantas/AS codeshares and "fifth freedom" flights to allow transpacific connections through Tahiti, or American Samoa, or maybe a new HNL-NAN (Nadi, Fiji) route that could capture part of the enormous demand by Aussies for travel to the Pacific islands.   The last time any Oneworld carrier served Tahiti was Lan Chile/Latam with connecting service through Easter Island to Santiago.  Since Latam exited Oneworld a couple of years ago, Tahiti has been the sold province of Air France and their partner Air Tahiti Nui.  That could change big time.  

 

I've been saying for awhile that this would be the next merger. Alaska doesn't rely on a domestic system but still has good coverage. Alaska has always been managed smart. They pulled back from Mexico and concentrated on Hawaii years ago. Very little overlap for the DOT to scrutinize. Hawaiian has long wanted to expand to Europe and it's been rumored that it will come with the 787s. Alaska has experience with the EMB 175 and that could be a replacement for the 717. HAL has said the 717 replacement is now "on hold" till the merger goes through. I just hope for the employees of HAL that the companies operate separately. The local news is already counting the loss of jobs in the management side.

[Critically Cruising]

3 hours ago, Yehootu said:

Very little overlap for the DOT to scrutinize.

 

Beg to differ.

 

Hawaiian operates 28 mainland – Hawaii routes. Alaska Airlines serves 12 of those routes. That’s overlap on 43% of Hawaiian’s mainland – Hawaii routes, and overlap on 25% of Hawaiian’s total route network.

 

 

[SelectSys]

As both a San Diegan and Oneworld member, I am really interested in this combination.  AK has really grown its service in San Diego. I think that AK is now #1 in terms of nonstop destinations from SAN ahead of WN.

 

This deal will certainly be interesting to watch.  It's a good thing they are leaving the two brands alone as the fleets and services provided are so different.  Better schedule coordination may be enough to get substantial benefits for the combined company along with back office savings.  The good news for AK is the transaction appears to be fairly low risk as they funding it from existing cash and aren't issuing any new debt to make the deal happen. 

 

15 hours ago, kiwimum said:

Nobody is mentioning the Hawaiian Airline routes that Alaska does not service.  South Pacific, Asia.   Huge markets.

 

I think a chance at the Asian / Pacific market as a long term play is a big part the deal rationale.  How many times have we all heard that this is the Asian century?  Hawaiian offers the chance at reasonable cost connecting service between North America and many parts of the Asia Pacific region. 

 

3 hours ago, Gardyloo said:

As part of AS, HA will be joining Oneworld, which at present has miserable coverage in the South Pacific, with very limited service by Qantas to a couple of locations, namely Noumea and Fiji, but then only a couple of times a week

Two points:

 

1) While they don't serve Seattle, Fiji Airways - an existing Oneworld member - does provide some of this connectivity from the West Coast.  That said, I believe the AK/HA combination has the potential to be much larger in terms of feeder traffic if the demand really exists from the Western US and maybe Canada too.

 

2) Oneworld truly seems to be the worst of the alliances right now. Both Qantas and Cathy Pacific are really hurting right now.  The prices their carriers charge almost always seem to get beat - at least for me - by other the other alliances if searching by price.  I would be curious what others think of Oneworld versus the other alliances.

Edited December 5, 2023 by SelectSys

[Zach1213]

7 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

As both a San Diegan and Oneworld member, I am really interested in this combination.  AK has really grown its service in San Diego. I think that AK is now #1 in terms of nonstop destinations from SAN ahead of WN.

What does Air Asia have to do with this?! 😉

 

Looks like AS has 26 year-round destinations from SAN (going up to 27 by summer), and nine seasonal destinations from SAN (going up to 11 by summer). WN also has 26 year-round destinations, and two seasonal destinations (going up to seven by summer). 

[Globaliser]

15 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

2) Oneworld truly seems to be the worst of the alliances right now. Both Qantas and Cathy Pacific are really hurting right now.  The prices their carriers charge almost always seem to get beat - at least for me - by other the other alliances if searching by price.  I would be curious what others think of Oneworld versus the other alliances.

 

Who's Cathy? 😉

 

If oneworld airlines are managing to charge higher prices than other alliances' airlines, that's usually a sign that oneworld airlines are doing the opposite of "really hurting". Prices are driven by supply and demand. So the higher-priced airline is often the one in higher demand, and therefore making bigger profits.

 

Anyway, you can't seriously suggest that Qantas is "really hurting". Its latest annual results showed an underlying profit of AUD2.47bn (USD1.62bn), which isn't the picture of an airline that's struggling to stay in business. Unsurprisingly, that was delivered because of high fares, which in turn reflected high demand.

[SelectSys]

12 minutes ago, Zach1213 said:

What does Air Asia have to do with this?! 😉

Whoops - substituting a state abbreviation for an airline!  

[SelectSys]

8 minutes ago, Globaliser said:

Prices are driven by supply and demand. So the higher-priced airline is often the one in higher demand, and therefore making bigger profits

 

This is true.  It is also true that profits invite competition.  I ask myself all the time is it worth it to continue on with Oneworld?  If I was starting from scratch now, Skyteam would be a better match for me.  Especially so with the almost complete disappearance of Oneworld from South America.

 

14 minutes ago, Globaliser said:

Anyway, you can't seriously suggest that Qantas is "really hurting". Its latest annual results showed an underlying profit of AUD2.47bn (USD1.62bn),

 

QF is not without its challenges.  There was quite a bit of uproar locally, including by investors, against the company when I was in Australia during November. 

 

The market, which is a predictor of longer run performance hasn't been as kind to the Qantas as of late and it would have been worse without the recent buyback.  At least they have some cash to buy themselves out of their problems, but the general competitive market will be putting pressure on them too.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/be9beb57-05da-4fc9-9c05-e6fe2ac3510a

 

 

[Yehootu]

55 minutes ago, Critically Cruising said:

 

Beg to differ.

 

Hawaiian operates 28 mainland – Hawaii routes. Alaska Airlines serves 12 of those routes. That’s overlap on 43% of Hawaiian’s mainland – Hawaii routes, and overlap on 25% of Hawaiian’s total route network.

 

 

On all of those routes where there is overlap, except 2 I believe, other carriers also serve them.

[Zach1213]

23 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

 

This is true.  It is also true that profits invite competition.  I ask myself all the time is it worth it to continue on with Oneworld?  If I was starting from scratch now, Skyteam would be a better match for me.  Especially so with the almost complete disappearance of Oneworld from South America.

 

 

It's interesting how loyalty happens. I remember starting with United/Star because my initial business trips in the mid-2000s were largely to Canada, Germany, New Zealand, and Singapore. Then, after about eight months, my work started shifting to Dallas, the UK, Hong Kong/China (including two years living near Hong Kong), Japan, Brazil, and Spain. Suddenly, boom, I'm a OneWorld guy and have been ExecPlat ever since. There are times it's just not worth it (I'm not a fan of going US to New Zealand via Australia, for example) and I fly other airlines, but I'm mostly OneWorld. 

[gofish]

I prefer Hawaiian over any other American flagged carrier. I think the 737 was a good choice for interisland trips when Aloha Airlines used them 25 years ago. I dont believe it is customer friendly on 6 hour flights, By the 4th hour the restrooms are to be avoided. . i try to avoid all flights using 737s and believe Hawaiian Airbus planes are more comfortable then the competition Boeings.

Alaska air has no choice but 737. I am disappointed that Hawaiian ordered a bunch of 787s but they will probably be delivered late .

I have flown Alaska a couple times and on our last Alaska cruise we were booked on them but they dropped the service and we ended up on United.

This merger is sad news for me but it did double by hawaiian stock investment.

 

[klfrodo]

Great thoughts on this merger from Juan Brown aka Blancolirio, a senior 777 pilot for Delta (I believe)

 

 

[Gardyloo]

22 hours ago, SelectSys said:

...While they don't serve Seattle, Fiji Airways - an existing Oneworld member - does provide some of this connectivity from the West Coast.  That said, I believe the AK/HA combination has the potential to be much larger in terms of feeder traffic if the demand really exists from the Western US and maybe Canada too.

Fiji is not a member of Oneworld; they're part of the so-called "Oneworld Connect" program which means, basically, nothing. 

[Globaliser]

21 hours ago, SelectSys said:

I ask myself all the time is it worth it to continue on with Oneworld?

 

That seems closer to your real issue with oneworld: Maybe it doesn't suit you (or doesn't suit you anymore).

 

But oneworld not working so well for you now, so that you personally are buying tickets on other airlines/alliances, is not the same as oneworld airlines "really hurting".

 

21 hours ago, SelectSys said:

QF is not without its challenges.  There was quite a bit of uproar locally, including by investors, against the company when I was in Australia during November. 

 

The market, which is a predictor of longer run performance hasn't been as kind to the Qantas as of late ...

 

QF's current problems are fundamentally cultural, not financial. However much one may despair about them, it is (once more) not the same as the airline "really hurting".

 

As for your comment about the market: Do you have any interest in a bridge?

[SelectSys]

16 hours ago, klfrodo said:

Great thoughts on this merger from Juan Brown

Seems kind of self serving from a pilot's point of view.  Good thing that he works for a "too big to fail" airline!  Given all that I hear regarding looming and actual pilot shortages, I don't expect too many issues for the pilots.   

 

1 hour ago, Gardyloo said:

Fiji is not a member of Oneworld; they're part of the so-called "Oneworld Connect" program

Thanks for that qualification.  I had never looked at this although it explains why lounge access is granted to OW members flying on Fiji through Nadi.  I guess this merger could put additional pressure on Fiji if it comes to pass.

 

1 hour ago, Globaliser said:

oneworld not working so well for you now, so that you personally are buying tickets on other airlines/alliances

I already do this.  It's more a question of changing focus.

 

1 hour ago, Globaliser said:

Oneworld airlines "really hurting".

Some are, some aren't.  Probably the worst is Cathy Pacific.  Malaysian while returning to profitability is still a shell of itself.  We will see how it goes for Qantas.

 

1 hour ago, Globaliser said:

As for your comment about the market: Do you have any interest in a bridge?

I suppose you believe yourself to be some kind of market sage?  Regardless, history is littered with powerful companies that guessed wrong and are now on the scrap heap or carry on in a much reduced capacity.

 

Sure, what bridge are you trying to sell?  I love recurring income from long-lived assets where tolls exist. 

[Globaliser]

30 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

Probably the worst is Cathy Pacific.

 

Just who is Cathy, anyway?

 

30 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

I suppose you believe yourself to be some kind of market sage?

 

You were the one suggesting that the market is omniscient; and that regardless of the fact that Qantas is currently making money hand over fist, it's "really hurting".