Norwegians shocking demise of quality on all fronts

[Megamixer]

3 hours ago, graphicguy said:

There were no "free" specialty dinners.  Now, you pay tips only.

Ha!  The gratuity you pay for the "free" dinners now is more than the upcharge was when NCL first started their "free style cruising."  

[PATRLR]

1 hour ago, bkrickles1 said:

The only flaw in what you're saying is that NCL continues to increase the scope of the Haven with every new ship and they've doubled the size of Vibe on almost every ship 🚢. 

The demographic you mention would not be interested in these amenities or can't afford them. 

Perhaps.  There are 107 Haven cabins on Viva.  That's still less than 10% of the 3219 double occupancy capacity.  Don't know Viva's Vibe capacity but I'd guess around 100 or so.  Again, low percentage of the total.

[PATRLR]

46 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

My point of the pricing exercise, and I quoted the fares I was personally trying to book, is the fallacy of NCL nickel and diming.

I think you have a different understanding of "nickel and diming" than I do.  Certainly different than how I use the term and I use it frequently on these boards.   

Just showing that NCL has a cheaper cost than others doesn't say anything about nickel and diming.  Where nickel and diming will come into play is when I consider the costs are relatively the same, I'm trying one of the other lines because NCL no longer has anything to cause me to stick with them.   

[graphicguy]

20 minutes ago, Megamixer said:

Ha!  The gratuity you pay for the "free" dinners now is more than the upcharge was when NCL first started their "free style cruising."  

Oh…I recall paying about $100 for a Cagney’s dinner on the Epic a dozen years ago.  I think it was $49/pp.

 

That vs $20/pp for 2 FAS SDPs today!

[LongIsland-Cruiser]

2 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Oh…I recall paying about $100 for a Cagney’s dinner on the Epic a dozen years ago.  I think it was $49/pp.

 

That vs $20/pp for 2 FAS SDPs today!

 

And back then a loaf of bread cost 50c! 🙂

[mking8288]

These - for perspectives - from 2005/2006 on the Norwegian Dawn, life at sea was simple, upcharge without DSC, and a truly very good to excellent menu of choices, selections and how times have changed.  Fewer "options" in Specialty Dining but some of them were practically, almost free.  

 

It's a good thing that I kept some of these in a bottom drawer ... looking back, how things have really changed.  And, I am touching shows of Jean Ann Ryan Productions ... 😉

 

 

[julig22]

2 hours ago, UKstages said:

people have talked in this thread about "shrinkflation"... that comparison is not apt here. shrinkflation would be if they charged the same price for a 7 day cruise that they used to charge for a 10 day cruise. (that's the smaller hershey bar for the same price.) what's happening here is that you're buying a cruise - of any duration - and, regardless of the price, the products and services delivered are consistently falling short of expectations.

Sorry, I guess the proper term is actually skimpflation. Defined as businesses 'skimping' on the quality of a product or service.  As raw prices go up with inflation, businesses skimp by spending less on services or materials to stay profitable.

 

I'm Diamond with NCL - but I sail for itinerary, so am somewhat oblivious to many of the issues being discussed here, simply because they aren't important to me. I usually cruise solo, don't drink, not a foodie. NCL has some of the best itineraries IMHO and solos do seem to get some better deals on NCL. Then there are some latitude perks I find valuable and I can use my credit card points for a meta upgrade. So while I'm definitely not NCL's main target (I don't spend much money onboard LOL), I'm still coming back, for now anyway.  I just used by last 2 CruiseNext certificates, not sure if I will be buying more on my next cruise.

 

Having said that, if they don't get their act together, with respect to communication and continually changing itineraries, I'm starting to look harder at other options. That's the service I need to have.  Unfortunately, NCL isn't the only cruise line getting raked over the coals on social media. 

[JamieLogical]

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

Bermuda vs Canada is a different itinerary.  So, I tried to stay roughly the same time frame and itinerary when doing my comparisons.

 

That said, it's been a minute since I was in Bermuda.  I am still looking into Bermuda sailings.

 

Oh, I know. I was just pointing out some CA & NE prices on MSC so you could get a sense of them since they don't have any September sailings there this year.

[UKstages]

26 minutes ago, julig22 said:

Unfortunately, NCL isn't the only cruise line getting raked over the coals on social media. 

 

well, that's certainly fortunate for NCL!

 

similar things to what we're saying about NCL can be said about most major cruise lines. absolutely. and if that's the case, these companies are effectively and collectively killing the category. nobody needs to go on a cruise. it's a choice.

 

and when the cruise lines make the product so inferior to what it once was, people can make other choices. the value gap is closing between cruises and all-inclusive resorts and land-based vacations. people can choose those or simply choose not to sail... or choose to wait it out a few years and see what becomes of the industry.

 

12 minutes ago, bkrickles1 said:

t's not the same!

 

agreed... having a poorly designed bathroom that allows you to see and/or hear your partner pooping is very different than hiding cameras in the cabin and spying on naked strangers, some of them underage, as they go about their business.

[CruiseMH]

11 minutes ago, UKstages said:

 

and when the cruise lines make the product so inferior to what it once was, people can make other choices. the value gap is closing between cruises and all-inclusive resorts and land-based vacations. people can choose those or simply choose not to sail..

 

there is still so much potential in getting new cruisers that many cruise lines don`t care that much about loyal cruisers any more.

In the US and Europa alone there are hundreds of millions of people who have never been on a cruise. these people are way more important for the cruise lines than the ten thousands of loyal customers. Cause all these new cruisers don`t know what it was like in the past.So they think the current version is good.

 

 

[graphicguy]

45 minutes ago, julig22 said:

Sorry, I guess the proper term is actually skimpflation. Defined as businesses 'skimping' on the quality of a product or service.  As raw prices go up with inflation, businesses skimp by spending less on services or materials to stay profitable.

 

I'm Diamond with NCL - but I sail for itinerary, so am somewhat oblivious to many of the issues being discussed here, simply because they aren't important to me. I usually cruise solo, don't drink, not a foodie. NCL has some of the best itineraries IMHO and solos do seem to get some better deals on NCL. Then there are some latitude perks I find valuable and I can use my credit card points for a meta upgrade. So while I'm definitely not NCL's main target (I don't spend much money onboard LOL), I'm still coming back, for now anyway.  I just used by last 2 CruiseNext certificates, not sure if I will be buying more on my next cruise.

 

Having said that, if they don't get their act together, with respect to communication and continually changing itineraries, I'm starting to look harder at other options. That's the service I need to have.  Unfortunately, NCL isn't the only cruise line getting raked over the coals on social media. 

I do love NCL for Solos.   They welcome us.  As a Sapphire, not a lot of these discussions matter to me.

 

Social media is a mine field for ALL the cruise lines.  I know as Royal has cut back on Diamond benefits, there has been plenty of outcries.  Celebrity has raised fares dramatically.   Carnival used to be the budget choice.  They aren’t so “budget” these days.  Neither is MSC, who used to be more budget focused!

 

As an example, I had read that the NCL Prima was horrible…mainly regarding INDULGE food hall.  I sailed her a few weeks ago.  Found INDULGE an absolute delight.  Found the outdoor areas to be great.

 

The problem?  It is so different than NCL’s other ships, people were surprised (apparently, not in a good way).

 

To me?  It’s a new and upper scale experience for NCL!

[graphicguy]

1 hour ago, mking8288 said:

These - for perspectives - from 2005/2006 on the Norwegian Dawn, life at sea was simple, upcharge without DSC, and a truly very good to excellent menu of choices, selections and how times have changed.  Fewer "options" in Specialty Dining but some of them were practically, almost free.  

 

It's a good thing that I kept some of these in a bottom drawer ... looking back, how things have really changed.  And, I am touching shows of Jean Ann Ryan Productions ... 😉

 

 

Thanks, Henry.  That's a fun "blast from the past".  I recall on the Epic, the then wife had a surf and turf and wine.  Total bill was $100.  That was before FAS.

[UKstages]

31 minutes ago, CruiseMH said:

there is still so much potential in getting new cruisers that many cruise lines don`t care that much about loyal cruisers any more.

In the US and Europa alone there are hundreds of millions of people who have never been on a cruise. these people are way more important for the cruise lines than the ten thousands of loyal customers.

 

this came up in a thread a year or more ago. i forget the exact figures. yes, there are hundreds of millions of people who haven't cruised. but of that population, very few are likely cruisers. cruise ships are not commodities like toothpaste or beef that most people consume regularly. 

 

i've never been to a soccer match. i have absolutely no interest. you can send me your glossy full-color brochures about the joys of soccer, offer me a ticket deal where the second person gets in at half price and you can even offer me free cake on lionel messi's birthday. i ain't buying a ticket to your damn soccer match.

 

so, too, with cruising. you can market the hell out of it; most people are just not interested, even once you overcome the disposable income barrier, which excludes even more of those hundreds of millions of people.

 

as for loyal customers, it is far cheaper in almost every business to keep the customers you have, rather than acquire new ones. it's a fundamental business marketing principle. that doesn't mean you can't have customer acquisition marketing efforts. (ideally, you should have acquisition and retention efforts.) it just means that it'll cost you a lot... and for every four new customers you add into the mix, if you've lost five existing customers on the back end, you have a net customer loss.

[RocketMan275]

12 hours ago, PATRLR said:

That's your interpretation of the phrase.  My interpretation is wider and includes:

• Things that used to be free but now you have to pay for 
• Things that used to be offered but aren't offered at all
• Things that used to be offered but have been replaced by something cheaper
  
  Nickel and diming can occur on both sides of the ledger - NCL getting additional monies from you, or, NCL saving money by offering you less.

Considering that inflation is driving all costs skyward, what do you think NCL should do to maintain profit margins?  Increase prices or would that be nickle and diming?  Reduce offerings or cheaper offerings or would that be nickel and diming?

[PATRLR]

3 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Considering that inflation is driving all costs skyward, what do you think NCL should do to maintain profit margins?  Increase prices or would that be nickle and diming?  Reduce offerings or cheaper offerings or would that be nickel and diming?

They should increase prices.  No question in my mind.   Continue to deliver a quality product and charge what they need to maintain profitability.  The alternative is to lower the quality of the product while maintaining the price - I'm not sure in what business model that would make sense. 
 

[graphicguy]

I don’t know their P&L, EBIT data, etc.  But, they’ve been sailing full.  The only way to increase passenger count is to add more ships.  Prima, Viva and Auqua intend to do that.  Increasing margin per guest is the another way.  

 

All of the cruise lines have a large debt service from the COVID shutdown.  

 

It looks like Royal/Celebrity are raising fares.  MSC is adding ships and cutting crew/personnel!  Really surprised Carnival is raising fares, but they are.  They are introducing new (sometimes reimagined ships..i.e. Venezia).

 

NCL is expanding their premium cabins (Haven) and premium extra cost areas on their ships (Vibe).

 

What‘s the magic formula?  

 

Best I can tell, NCL is still sailing at capacity.  So, they have that part down.  The more passengers, the less expenses they have per passenger!

[JamieLogical]

MSC did not take on debt from COVID as their shipping arm raked it I hand over fist. Since they are privately owned, they don't have to answer to shareholders. So they are definitely better positioned than the other lines right now.

[EngrJones]

3 hours ago, PATRLR said:

The alternative is to lower the quality of the product while maintaining the price - I'm not sure in what business model that would make sense. 

It may not make sense, but it happens a LOT.  Have you gotten pizza from Pizza Hut or Dominos recently?

[PATRLR]

4 minutes ago, EngrJones said:

It may not make sense, but it happens a LOT.  Have you gotten pizza from Pizza Hut or Dominos recently?

No.  Intersting choice for comparison though.

I acknowledge an error in my statement above, I should have said:  The alternative is to lower the quality of the product while maintaining the price - I'm not sure in what business model that would make sense over the long term. 

[BirdTravels]

2 hours ago, EngrJones said:

It may not make sense, but it happens a LOT.  Have you gotten pizza from Pizza Hut or Dominos recently?

No. We order Papa Johns or &pizzas. And have not noted any degradation of product quality. 

[dexddd]

16 hours ago, CruiseMH said:

 

there is still so much potential in getting new cruisers that many cruise lines don`t care that much about loyal cruisers any more.

In the US and Europa alone there are hundreds of millions of people who have never been on a cruise. these people are way more important for the cruise lines than the ten thousands of loyal customers. Cause all these new cruisers don`t know what it was like in the past.So they think the current version is good.

 

 

That was the rational for China a few years back.  Didn't work there.

Edited March 6 by dexddd

[dexddd]

17 hours ago, mking8288 said:

These - for perspectives - from 2005/2006 on the Norwegian Dawn, life at sea was simple, upcharge without DSC, and a truly very good to excellent menu of choices, selections and how times have changed.  Fewer "options" in Specialty Dining but some of them were practically, almost free.  

 

It's a good thing that I kept some of these in a bottom drawer ... looking back, how things have really changed.  And, I am touching shows of Jean Ann Ryan Productions ... 😉

 

 

You forgot to mention kids 12 and under were half cover up until just before FDR.

[graphicguy]

9 hours ago, EngrJones said:

It may not make sense, but it happens a LOT.  Have you gotten pizza from Pizza Hut or Dominos recently?

 I make my own.  Way better than any frozen or delivery pizza!

[ontheweb]

10 hours ago, EngrJones said:

It may not make sense, but it happens a LOT.  Have you gotten pizza from Pizza Hut or Dominos recently?

No, there never was a Dominos here and there used to be a Pizza Hut, but it has closed. 

[cruiseny4life]

Since pizza was brought up...we go to a local joint in Central New York. A large is a true 16" pizza, not that "large" you'll get at Domino's or Pizza Hut that's super tiny. The quality is, well it's one of the best pizzas I've ever had. The quality has not gone down. It's still exactly the same as the first time I went there.

 

I get a 16", with the traditional NY-style crust (not cracker thin, but can hold the toppings), plus four to five toppings (usually either a chicken, bacon ranch half or sausage, pepperoni, bacon, and mushroom). It's $21.50. Find that anywhere else! The place is highly rated on Google with a 4.8, 4.6 on Yelp...and plenty of folks claim it's the best pizza they've had. I'm sure others have different taste, but plenty of us truly enjoy the food this restaurant serves.

 

The point is...this place started by grandma and grandpa (not mine) and now run by the second generation is doing just fine. Their driveway in town has a late model BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, and Ford F-150. The house is one of the nicest in town. They're doing just fine for themselves and they're providing the best possible experience for their customers.

 

They had COVID issues too. I live in NY. We shut down. Hard. For three to four months. Sure, it wasn't as long as the cruise lines, but it was long enough for a small, family business. They have inflationary costs. Guess what. Since June of 2022, the cost of their pizza has not gone up one cent. Not one. They're still making the best pizza around and are the busiest restaurant I go into. 

NCL could do this too. They are just greedy. Greedy, why? Well, it could be due to being a public company. Or, perhaps Dirty Harry just doesn't manage NCLH well. NCL's only good product is the Haven. And that quality is obviously going down. I'm not booking cruises right now. I still want to book a NCL cruise. But I won't until I know the quality won't be further degraded. 

 

There will be no NCL cruise for me in 2024 and that's after five total cruises in 2022 and 2023. Alternative vacations where I can control for quality and what is promised to me after booking is guaranteed is where my money is currently going. That pizza place? They will keep getting my money for a very long time! The difference is quality.