Carnival Corporation Orders Three Additional Ships for Carnival Cruise Line, Introducing a New Class of Ships

[tidecat]

1 minute ago, DanJ said:

Thank you for you curiosity on my logo, it's been my logo for almost 20 years, never cared enough to look for another. I have sailed 4 different lines, pluses and minuses of them all. Yes, of course all lines have sold ships. I just wonder why, given the popularity and utility of a Spirit class ship that Carnival would part with one, that's all. 

Atlantica is a year older (2000) than Carnival Spirit and Pacific/Carnival Adventure (2001). This isn't much help in terms of replacing older ships. You also have to remember one of the popular features of the Spirit-class - the extra space per passenger - doesn't necessarily make a cruise line money

 

Atlantica was actually sold to CSSC, now Adora Cruises, which was a joint venture between Carnival and the Chinese government. It appears Carnival took the ship back when they exited the joint venture, and then turned around and made an immediate sale - no cruises to cancel, no future cruise credits to issue, and no renovation to perform.  Based on the proceeds from ship sales reported for that quarter, they likely made about as much money from selling the ship as they would have in five years of sailings had they decided to operate it. That's a nice boost, especially when you're $27 billion in debt.

 

[BlerkOne]

53 minutes ago, DanJ said:

Thank you for you curiosity on my logo, it's been my logo for almost 20 years, never cared enough to look for another. I have sailed 4 different lines, pluses and minuses of them all. Yes, of course all lines have sold ships. I just wonder why, given the popularity and utility of a Spirit class ship that Carnival would part with one, that's all. 

Over 30 billion in debt and the need to reduce costs at a time when few people were cruising.

[lasvegascruising]

Did I see a lazy river on the picture a few pages back?  I would be there every morning the minute it opens and not leave until...probably lunch!  That would be fantastic.

[tidecat]

1 hour ago, lasvegascruising said:

Did I see a lazy river on the picture a few pages back?  I would be there every morning the minute it opens and not leave until...probably lunch!  That would be fantastic.

That was on the Project Pinnacle prototype Fincantieri pitched back in the early 2000s.

 

Disney Cruise Line's Aquaduck was initially planned as a lazy river, but there was concern about how much deck space it would take up, so it became the elevated water coaster we know today.

[firefly333]

14 hours ago, jeblack1 said:

So having never been on a Royal Ship, but have been on the Celebration, what more could Carnival offer with a larger ship?   

Oasis class on royal divides embarkation into both sides of thr ship, not one. On smaller ships only one place to board the ship, oasis class split it into two and debarkation is from front or back. I always walk forward as most seem to walk aft. My secret for a fast debark on royal mega ships. 

 

I too read this and wondered what will be the new features. Holy cow on the over 6,000 pax size. They say largest in the world. Idk if the ships are bigger or just more cabins. Hard for me to tell from the write up. .. but for sure that is lots of people. 

[aborgman]

11 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

Did they give a number?  no.  

 

Yes.

 

Almost 8,000 is a number Carnival gave.

 

3,000+ staterooms is a number Carnival gave.

 

230,000 gross tons is a number Carnival gave.

[DanJ]

5 hours ago, firefly333 said:

Oasis class on royal divides embarkation into both sides of thr ship, not one. On smaller ships only one place to board the ship, oasis class split it into two and debarkation is from front or back. I always walk forward as most seem to walk aft. My secret for a fast debark on royal mega ships. 

 

I too read this and wondered what will be the new features. Holy cow on the over 6,000 pax size. They say largest in the world. Idk if the ships are bigger or just more cabins. Hard for me to tell from the write up. .. but for sure that is lots of people. 

I've been on Oasis and they only board on one side of the ship. How do they embark on both sides when there is only one side of the ship facing the pier just like any other ship? 

[DanJ]

8 hours ago, tidecat said:

Atlantica is a year older (2000) than Carnival Spirit and Pacific/Carnival Adventure (2001). This isn't much help in terms of replacing older ships. You also have to remember one of the popular features of the Spirit-class - the extra space per passenger - doesn't necessarily make a cruise line money

 

Atlantica was actually sold to CSSC, now Adora Cruises, which was a joint venture between Carnival and the Chinese government. It appears Carnival took the ship back when they exited the joint venture, and then turned around and made an immediate sale - no cruises to cancel, no future cruise credits to issue, and no renovation to perform.  Based on the proceeds from ship sales reported for that quarter, they likely made about as much money from selling the ship as they would have in five years of sailings had they decided to operate it. That's a nice boost, especially when you're $27 billion in debt.

 

Thank you for a though provoking and reasoned response. I wonder if in hindsight, given how the market has come back so strong, if they wish they had this one back. 

[firefly333]

16 minutes ago, DanJ said:

I've been on Oasis and they only board on one side of the ship. How do they embark on both sides when there is only one side of the ship facing the pier just like any other ship? 

Front and back. Not both sides. Maybe you just didnt notice. I've boarded in multiples ports and they divide into 2 so it's about as fast as smaller ships. 

[tidecat]

5 minutes ago, DanJ said:

Thank you for a though provoking and reasoned response. I wonder if in hindsight, given how the market has come back so strong, if they wish they had this one back. 

This was only a few months ago when it sold, so no. If they wanted to keep it they wouldn't have sold it.

[kdr69]

20 hours ago, LatinaInTexas said:

While I have loved bigger and new ships overall 8000 people just doesn't appeal to me at all. 

Well you dont have to stand at the gangway and greet them all as they come on board 😁cause i guarantee your not gonna run into all 8000 while onboard.

[jimbo5544]

2 hours ago, aborgman said:

 

Yes.

 

Almost 8,000 is a number Carnival gave.

 

3,000+ staterooms is a number Carnival gave.

 

230,000 gross tons is a number Carnival gave.

Estimates, you can keep positing these non specific numbers but you and I both know that it will be defined when they actually do the specs for the ships.  Until that time it is fluff.

[jimbo5544]

2 hours ago, firefly333 said:

Front and back. Not both sides. Maybe you just didnt notice. I've boarded in multiples ports and they divide into 2 so it's about as fast as smaller ships. 

it does work doing that.

[jimbo5544]

2 hours ago, DanJ said:

Thank you for a though provoking and reasoned response. I wonder if in hindsight, given how the market has come back so strong, if they wish they had this one back. 

64 mill is a win win for a 20 + year old ship.  They would do it again (and may).

[ProgRockCruiser]

2 hours ago, aborgman said:

 

Yes.

 

Almost 8,000 is a number Carnival gave.

 

3,000+ staterooms is a number Carnival gave.

 

230,000 gross tons is a number Carnival gave.

I'm guessing (see what I did there?) that Jimbo's concerns are that those aren't precise enough.  Is 7812 "almost 8000"?  What about 7612?

 

Although I would be surprised if the ships weren't already fully designed, the "as-built" configuration may differ from the design due to last minute changes, so even if the current cabin count is known precisely, they aren't going to publish it until closer to completion.

 

And we won't know exactly what factor Carnival may apply to the new ships for max capacity vs "full double occupancy".

 

However, since we have a pattern of # of cabins and max capacity for the existing Carnival fleet, one can extrapolate.  e.g. (all figures sources from the Wikipedia entries for the ships):

 

Magic:

3,690 (double), 4,724 (max), or 1.28 factor.  GT / pax @ max = 27.5

 

Vista:

3,934 (double), 4,977 (max), or 1.26 factor.  GT / pax @ max = 26.8

 

Jubilee:

5,228 (double), 6,631 (max), or 1.26.  GT / pax @ max = 27.7

 

If the new build has exactly 3000 cabins (because they said "3000+", so let's take to least valid number, then that's 7560 pax at max capacity using the above 1.26 ratios.

 

It seems unlikely Carnival would state "almost 8000" if the figure is so much closer to 7500, so I would estimate that the true max capacity is between 7900 and 8000 - anything less would be disingenuous.  7900 max capacity results in roughly 3135 cabins.

 

Using 230,000 GT and the per pax ratio of 27.7, that would result in 8303 max pax.  But that isn't "almost 8000".  So if we use 7900 max pax, then the GT / pax ratio is 29.1, which is better than the last three classes.  So, in theory, the new class should feel less crowded...unless the GT is "wasted space" like large atriums or slightly higher ceilings where no-one will notice.  Or the crew have a below-decks basketball court!

 

While these "estimates/guesses" probably aren't precise enough for Jimbo, they are "good enough" for me, for now.

 

 

[ray985]

21 hours ago, stobe1 said:

Could they possibly be dusting off the old shelved Pinnacle class design and updating it a bit for this new class?

 

 

 

An article from January said the new ships would likely be based on the new Sphere-class / Sun Princess rather than a wholly new design like Pinnacle. 

[ProgRockCruiser]

7 minutes ago, ray985 said:

An article from January said the new ships would likely be based on the new Sphere-class / Sun Princess rather than a wholly new design like Pinnacle. 

Would it be a scaled-up design of the Sphere class?  Because those ships aren't nearly big enough in their current design to match the specs stated by Carnival about the new class.

[jimbo5544]

5 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

I'm guessing (see what I did there?) that Jimbo's concerns are that those aren't precise enough.  Is 7812 "almost 8000"?  What about 7612?

 

Although I would be surprised if the ships weren't already fully designed, the "as-built" configuration may differ from the design due to last minute changes, so even if the current cabin count is known precisely, they aren't going to publish it until closer to completion.

 

And we won't know exactly what factor Carnival may apply to the new ships for max capacity vs "full double occupancy".

 

However, since we have a pattern of # of cabins and max capacity for the existing Carnival fleet, one can extrapolate.  e.g. (all figures sources from the Wikipedia entries for the ships):

 

Magic:

3,690 (double), 4,724 (max), or 1.28 factor.  GT / pax @ max = 27.5

 

Vista:

3,934 (double), 4,977 (max), or 1.26 factor.  GT / pax @ max = 26.8

 

Jubilee:

5,228 (double), 6,631 (max), or 1.26.  GT / pax @ max = 27.7

 

If the new build has exactly 3000 cabins (because they said "3000+", so let's take to least valid number, then that's 7560 pax at max capacity using the above 1.26 ratios.

 

It seems unlikely Carnival would state "almost 8000" if the figure is so much closer to 7500, so I would estimate that the true max capacity is between 7900 and 8000 - anything less would be disingenuous.  7900 max capacity results in roughly 3135 cabins.

 

Using 230,000 GT and the per pax ratio of 27.7, that would result in 8303 max pax.  But that isn't "almost 8000".  So if we use 7900 max pax, then the GT / pax ratio is 29.1, which is better than the last three classes.  So, in theory, the new class should feel less crowded...unless the GT is "wasted space" like large atriums or slightly higher ceilings where no-one will notice.  Or the crew have a below-decks basketball court!

 

While these "estimates/guesses" probably aren't precise enough for Jimbo, they are "good enough" for me, for now.

 

 

No problem with that. My point was.is that they are marketing estimates.  Signing a sales order does not mean they have defined specifics like cabin count (or many other factors).  It is rumored to be mirrored on the Princess class but even that is nebulous and could change by hundreds of cabins (probably more than less).  How will it feel (not even sure what the heck that means) when built, we can only guess.  Will it be the largest class for Carnival (at least to date and hopefully forever)?  I sure hope so.  I was in the room not all that long ago, when Micky said Carnival will never play in the "big" game.  Things have changed (more than he could have possibly guessed or had a nightmare about) but they are going where the money is.  We have plenty of time to discuss it.

[jimbo5544]

4 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

Would it be a scaled-up design of the Sphere class?  Because those ships aren't nearly big enough in their current design to match the specs stated by Carnival about the new class.

Maybe FIncantieri has a ship stretcher.  Yesterday I want to the order book for new builds and it would surprise me if this yard can do all those ships on that timeline, but JMHO.

[ray985]

27 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

Would it be a scaled-up design of the Sphere class?  Because those ships aren't nearly big enough in their current design to match the specs stated by Carnival about the new class.

The article says "This is a new series of ships inspired by the prototype of the new units under construction for Princess Cruises in Monfalcone but even larger and more innovative." I'm guessing it's similar to Royal Caribbean's Freedom-class which is a lengthened version of the Voyager-class but the overall layout/frame would be similar.

It'd make a lot more sense of Princess' decision to go with a new class of ship rather than use the Excel-class ships most of Carnival's brands went with. 

Edited July 24 by ray985

[tidecat]

The Excel-class design is from Meyer. Fincantieri is ultimately basing theirs on Project Mille, which has been used by MSC (Seaside and Seaside EVO classes) and Norwegian (Prima class).

[bar1068]

19 hours ago, TeresaJ said:

While the new ships sound cool and amazing, how about some new and/or interesting ports for these new ships. Almost every itinerary on Mardi Gras and Celebration go to Amber Cove, San Juan, and Nassau and the occasional St Thomas or Western itinerary. How about Southern itineraries or Eastern with different ports. Same old, same old gets redundant and boring.  I want to book the Mardi Gras again or try the Celebration, but the itineraries are just not that enticing.

We sailed an 8 day southern caribbean cruise on Celebration last year. Those are still offered at least until September of 2025.

[kwokpot]

1 hour ago, jimbo5544 said:

Maybe FIncantieri has a ship stretcher.  Yesterday I want to the order book for new builds and it would surprise me if this yard can do all those ships on that timeline, but JMHO.

Look how Fincantieri scales up and down a basic cruiseship design for Virgin,NCL,MSC  (Lady Class??? Prima Class, Seaside Class)

[DPTexas]

While a lot of cruisers will enjoy these larger ships, they probably won't appeal to us.  That said, we mainly cruise out of Galveston because of proximity, so we enjoy the Dream class.  We've also sailed out of Long Beach (Panorama),and recently out of Miami (Horizon).  Our first cruise was on the Elation, but can't remember what port we sailed from (Jacksonville?).  It was a great size for a first cruise.

We enjoyed the Panorama, but it was almost too big for us.  Oddly, the Horizon did not seem too busy, but we were in the Havana Cabana area and loved it.  We are booked early next year on the Jubilee and are concerned it may be too big and too much like a "Six Flags at Sea". But, we are curious and want to experience it for comparison.  We are not heavy cruisers - only twice a year for 7-9 day itineraries.  We enjoy cruising because it offers the most-relaxing vacations, so that is the draw. 

The news about larger ships is exciting for Carnival, the industry and many cruisers, but probably too big/busy for us.  We are glad to have the Dream class as an option and hope the Dream stays in Galveston for the longer itineraries.   

Thanks for letting us put in our $.02 worth.

Happy cruising y'all!

[jeblack1]

21 hours ago, TeresaJ said:

While the new ships sound cool and amazing, how about some new and/or interesting ports for these new ships. Almost every itinerary on Mardi Gras and Celebration go to Amber Cove, San Juan, and Nassau and the occasional St Thomas or Western itinerary. How about Southern itineraries or Eastern with different ports. Same old, same old gets redundant and boring.  I want to book the Mardi Gras again or try the Celebration, but the itineraries are just not that enticing.

Just went on Celebration to ABC islands....great cruise!   I agree that I would like something that went further east in the Caribbean.