Star Princess investigation

[Mom33]

This is supposedly where the picture was taken, at the intersection of the two paths.

 

 

Again from Don Winner's Panama Guide

 

What proof do they have that Fifty cents passed by them? They can show where the Star was because records are kept. Who was plotting the course for the lost 50 Cents? If it was possible to know where the 50 cents was at any given time, they could have been rescued by the Panamanian Coast Guard.

[voyageur9]

What proof do they have that Fifty cents passed by them? They can show where the Star was because records are kept. Who was plotting the course for the lost 50 Cents?

 

A proof is going to be forthcoming.

[voyageur9]

What proof do they have that Fifty cents passed by them? They can show where the Star was because records are kept. Who was plotting the course for the lost 50 Cents?

 

A proof, one way or the other, will be forthcoming. There are multiple pictures taken from the Star of a small vessel. (All digital photo files contain datestamp information and once the time is established, the location of the Star at the moment of the picture-taking will be known.) If the vessel in the picture turns out to be the Fifty Cent, that will be proof positive of a close encounter at a specific time and location. There will likely be recordings of the radar plot at that time, possibly bridge/radio conversation recordings as well.

 

If the vessel in the picture turns out to be not the Fifty Cent, i.e. proof negative, the same troubling issue will remain -- why did a report of a 'distress signal' or perceived 'vessel in distress' delivered to a Princess crewmember not reach the appropriate officers and, if it did, why did they fail to act on the report.

[BillB48]

I don't think there can be any proof, just a preponderance of evidence that 50 cent was the boat that was seen by the birders and the Star Princess was the passenger ship seen by Adrian Vasquez. It really is not as though there were so many ships and fishing boats around at that particular time. I believe that the course of 50 cent can be deduced from where they started from and where the survivor was rescued. While Panama has some first world attributes around Panama City it is not the same in the rest of the country. These poor guys were just trying to make a little money (I do mean a little) or even just make dinner for that night and the gas for the trip was enough of a capital investment for them. In a perfect world they would have their GPS. ship to shore radio and the laundry list of safety equipment as well as filed a float plan.

 

Two people died, I don't have a brief for Princess or the fishermen. It does appear that something could have been done differently that may have avoided the deaths of those two men. Who knows, maybe when the info reached the officers on watch they not having the benefit of a stabilized spotting scope they could not see the disabled boat as well as the birders did. I really don't know, but it is worth a look, is it not? As far as the Panamanian Coast Guard, if they had an operational boat, by the time they would have known to look for the lost boat there would have been so much territory to cover with their limited resources.

[PescadoAmarillo]

What proof do they have that Fifty cents passed by them? They can show where the Star was because records are kept. Who was plotting the course for the lost 50 Cents? If it was possible to know where the 50 cents was at any given time, they could have been rescued by the Panamanian Coast Guard.

I don't know the answer to this, but I'm certain that, if it's possible, the survivor's attorneys will find the experts who can do it, and Princess attorneys will dispute their findings.

 

Knowing nothing about these things, I might guess they could pretty accurately map the route of 50 Cents based on currents and tides and winds. How was the map showing the intersection of the fishing boat and Star Princess generated?

[BillB48]

How was the map showing the intersection of the fishing boat and Star Princess generated?

 

I think Don Winner of the Panama Guide generated the map according to AIS position reports or had someone generate the map. Here is the actual link from the Panama Guide.

 

http://www.panama-guide.com/article.php/2012041614340810

[Mom33]

I don't think there can be any proof, just a preponderance of evidence that 50 cent was the boat that was seen by the birders and the Star Princess was the passenger ship seen by Adrian Vasquez. It really is not as though there were so many ships and fishing boats around at that particular time. I believe that the course of 50 cent can be deduced from where they started from and where the survivor was rescued. While Panama has some first world attributes around Panama City it is not the same in the rest of the country. These poor guys were just trying to make a little money (I do mean a little) or even just make dinner for that night and the gas for the trip was enough of a capital investment for them. In a perfect world they would have their GPS. ship to shore radio and the laundry list of safety equipment as well as filed a float plan.

 

Two people died, I don't have a brief for Princess or the fishermen. It does appear that something could have been done differently that may have avoided the deaths of those two men. Who knows, maybe when the info reached the officers on watch they not having the benefit of a stabilized spotting scope they could not see the disabled boat as well as the birders did. I really don't know, but it is worth a look, is it not? As far as the Panamanian Coast Guard, if they had an operational boat, by the time they would have known to look for the lost boat there would have been so much territory to cover with their limited resources.

 

Where the Star is located on the graphic is in a well traveled shipping lane offshore of the Panama Canal. There are many ships travelling through this route as well as fishing boats. Many aboard the Star saw other fishing boats.

 

Deducing the course of the 50 cents is not what anyone should be doing. Unless you know the currents and wind direction from the day they first went missing, you can't plot a probable course and then accuse a ship of crossing their path. If they were missing 2 weeks as reported when the Star went through the area, they probably were long gone from the position in the graphic.

[Mom33]

A proof, one way or the other, will be forthcoming. There are multiple pictures taken from the Star of a small vessel. (All digital photo files contain datestamp information and once the time is established, the location of the Star at the moment of the picture-taking will be known.) If the vessel in the picture turns out to be the Fifty Cent, that will be proof positive of a close encounter at a specific time and location. There will likely be recordings of the radar plot at that time, possibly bridge/radio conversation recordings as well.

 

If the vessel in the picture turns out to be not the Fifty Cent, i.e. proof negative, the same troubling issue will remain -- why did a report of a 'distress signal' or perceived 'vessel in distress' delivered to a Princess crewmember not reach the appropriate officers and, if it did, why did they fail to act on the report.

 

How can you prove from the pictures, the size of the boat, the name of the boat, how many people are on it, what if anything they are waving. I can't tell anything. It could be anyone's boat.

 

Don Winner sure needs to stand back and take a closer look at his journalistic

style. I'll just wait for the professionals to investigate.

[Pam in CA]

I think Don Winner of the Panama Guide generated the map according to AIS position reports or had someone generate the map. Here is the actual link from the Panama Guide.

 

http://www.panama-guide.com/article.php/2012041614340810

A couple of odd things in this story. The blogger says the birder thought the sighting was "likely to have been mid-afternoon at approximately 3 pm or so." The word "likely" seems odd to me because wouldn't they know exactly what time? It sounds like a guess to me. The other thing that struck me is that the blogger has been contacting Carnival Corporation for details, not Princess. He also implies that the Captain deliberately sailed away after receiving the report.

 

Can't wait for the results of the Bermuda investigation.

[BillB48]

Many aboard the Star saw other fishing boats.

 

Deducing the course of the 50 cents is not what anyone should be doing. Unless you know the currents and wind direction from the day they first went missing, you can't plot a probable course and then accuse a ship of crossing their path. If they were missing 2 weeks as reported when the Star went through the area, they probably were long gone from the position in the graphic.

 

Yes other fishing boats were seen, however none of them were missing and someone took a picture of the boat in question and went to the TV and got the long and lat.

 

I really don't think you have to know wind, currents etc. to determine where the boat started it's trip and where Adrian Vasquez was rescued with one accurate fix of their position when they were seen by the birders. Even though I have not seen anything on this, it is not out of the question that Vasquez could have known the date he saw the ship thereby narrowing the field of possible ships in the location.

 

The fact they were missing two weeks when they were seen by the birders and they were adrift another two and half weeks means the guy was on the boat 27 days, I don't think you can assume he was long gone anywhere except from his home.

[Mom33]

Yes other fishing boats were seen, however none of them were missing and someone took a picture of the boat in question and went to the TV and got the long and lat.

 

I really don't think you have to know wind, currents etc. to determine where the boat started it's trip and where Adrian Vasquez was rescued with one accurate fix of their position when they were seen by the birders. Even though I have not seen anything on this, it is not out of the question that Vasquez could have known the date he saw the ship thereby narrowing the field of possible ships in the location.

 

The fact they were missing two weeks when they were seen by the birders and they were adrift another two and half weeks means the guy was on the boat 27 days, I don't think you can assume he was long gone anywhere except from his home.

 

It remains to be seen whether the birders actually saw the 50 Cents or another boat at your fixed position on March 10.

 

A boat is at the mercy of the currents and the wind when without power or sails. It will go where the currents and wind take it. This is a fact you would know if you were familiar with piloting your own boat.

[BillB48]

A couple of odd things in this story. The blogger says the birder thought the sighting was "likely to have been mid-afternoon at approximately 3 pm or so." The word "likely" seems odd to me because wouldn't they know exactly what time? It sounds like a guess to me. The other thing that struck me is that the blogger has been contacting Carnival Corporation for details, not Princess. He also implies that the Captain deliberately sailed away after receiving the report.

 

Can't wait for the results of the Bermuda investigation.

 

I really think that so much time has lapsed and there are so many loose ends that really can't be proved or disproved, I don't believe what exactly happened can be determined conclusively. The Captain probably was not made aware of the situation in such a timely manner that he could have actually seen what the situation was and relied on reports from the watch officers. I am also concerned that the birders sighting may not have carried the same weight as that of someone on the bridge. I also wonder if the birders warning was dismissed as a report that was not reliable. I just don't know and I'm not convinced that the investigations will make anything conclusive.

 

As far as Don Winner goes, he really is more than a blogger. He has a fairly extensive internet news service in Panama. Admittedly he is always turning over rocks looking for something to crawl out, he has uncovered quite a number nefarious doings and he should not discounted out of hand.

[bdjam]

The captain doesn't have an option. If a report of a 'vessel in distress' is received (and I understand that is a matter of some confusion, uncertainty, and debate) the master of a ship has an obligation to 'turn the ship around' or 'change course' or whatever to render assistance. The law doesn't say 'render assistance' only if it's rock-solid information and the vessel needing assistance is conveniently on our planned course.

OK - so from what has been stated, we know the Captain didn't receive such a message and you're postulating about what the message that was sent contained. Based on the picture, it hardly looks like a vessel in distress.

I don't know the answer to this, but I'm certain that, if it's possible, the survivor's attorneys will find the experts who can do it, and Princess attorneys will dispute their findings.

Hmm - given these guys were from a poor nation like Panama I wonder where they came up with the money for attorneys. Never mind.

A couple of odd things in this story. The blogger says the birder thought the sighting was "likely to have been mid-afternoon at approximately 3 pm or so." The word "likely" seems odd to me because wouldn't they know exactly what time? It sounds like a guess to me. The other thing that struck me is that the blogger has been contacting Carnival Corporation for details, not Princess. He also implies that the Captain deliberately sailed away after receiving the report.

Another inconsistency - interesting that they are only "likely" about the time but in the email to the Coast Guard they quoted exact coordinates.

 

The implication that the Captain sailed away after receiving the report is equal to calling him for manslaughter. Personally, that's what I find disgusting about this whole sad story.

[BillB48]

 

A boat is at the mercy of the currents and the wind when without power or sails. It will go where the currents and wind take it. This is a fact you would know if you were familiar with piloting your own boat.

 

Not only am I aware of the fact I am also very familiar with those waters as I have fished them in my own boat and on charter boats. I have also been through Adrian Vasquez's hometown of Rio Hato many times, so I think I have some insight as to what they faced.

[Mom33]

Not only am I aware of the fact I am also very familiar with those waters as I have fished them in my own boat and on charter boats. I have also been through Adrian Vasquez's hometown of Rio Hato many times, so I think I have some insight as to what they faced.

 

Then why would you make such a statement that the wind and current aren't necessary in plotting a course for the 50 Cents?

[BillB48]

Because there are only two things in this case that are absolute, you know where they started and where Vasquez was rescued. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to draw a straight line between the two. Wind and current will have had their effect on the boat. Everything else at this point will have to inferred or deduced. At this point I am not going to consider that the aliens from area 51 escaped and transported the boat almost to the Galapagos Islands..... but you never know!

[Mom33]

Because there are only two things in this case that are absolute, you know where they started and where Vasquez was rescued. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to draw a straight line between the two. Wind and current will have had their effect on the boat. Everything else at this point will have to inferred or deduced. At this point I am not going to consider that the aliens from area 51 escaped and transported the boat almost to the Galapagos Islands..... but you never know!

 

I beg to differ. There is no proof positive where they started.

[RickEk]

So it seems that we have a case of reasonable doubt...

 

I do look at that photo that is posted of the "alleged" Fifty Cents and I can't determine if someone is waving anything. I see a red blob which could be anything. The "alleged" route of the "Fifty Cents" is also in question. Since there wasn't a GPS device aboard, it could have been anywhere. Plotting a fictitious course is just that... fiction.

 

While Mr. Winner might be a respected journalist, he should have known better than to ask such leading questions. In that respect, he does seem to be more of a tabloid journalist...

 

That all being said... sure, it could have been the Fifty Cents that the birders saw.. but no one will know for certain.

 

It'll be interesting to see the final investigative report from the Bermudan authorities.

[caribill]

Because there are only two things in this case that are absolute, you know where they started and where Vasquez was rescued. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to draw a straight line between the two.

 

Except the picture does not show a straight line between the two.

 

It shows a line to where it supposedly was near the path of the Star Princess and then the line makes a sharp change in direction to go to where the rescue was.

 

Drawing a straight line between where they started and where Vasquez was rescued would not cross the Star's path where this pictures indicates.

[gdisney]

Except the picture does not show a straight line between the two.

 

It shows a line to where it supposedly was near the path of the Star Princess and then the line makes a sharp change in direction to go to where the rescue was.

 

Drawing a straight line between where they started and where Vasquez was rescued would not cross the Star's path where this pictures indicates.

 

Well, no ship would travel in an exact straight line. There's going to be deviation due to wind and currents. Even a ship under motor power will show some deviation. The course plots can be, at best, a close approximation.

[caribill]

Well, no ship would travel in an exact straight line. There's going to be deviation due to wind and currents. Even a ship under motor power will show some deviation. The course plots can be, at best, a close approximation.

 

I agree, but the other poster said all you have to do is draw one straight line.

 

For all we know, much of the time the little boat could have been traveling in big circles.

[BillB48]

I agree, but the other poster said all you have to do is draw one straight line.

 

For all we know, much of the time the little boat could have been traveling in big circles.

 

Yes, I did say all you had to do was draw a straight line and that certainly would give you the general course that was traveled, lacking any tracking devices there will be no way to be absolutely sure where the boat was on any given day.

 

I think we can safely assume the boat was not traveling in big circles as well. Vasquez was rescued some 640 miles from where they departed some 27 days (I have also read 28) earlier. That comes out almost 24 miles per day.... his average speed was almost 1 mph. I really don't think with those figures much time could have been spent going in circles.

 

This tragedy is going to be settled from putting what pieces of the puzzle that are left for us from deductions and assumptions as there is nothing else that can be done. In any case, I hope that no one is wrongly hung out to dry, form Vasquez to Capt. Perrin.

[voyageur9]

The twists and turns in the course of the 50 Cent over weeks are immaterial to the investigation into whether Star Princess failed to assist a 'vessel in distress' as required under international law.

 

All that matters is whether 50 Cent was in the vicinty of the Star Princess track on Mar 10 and whether 50 Cent was the small boat photographed by the birders on board the Star Princess which was, in turn, the subject of their reporting to at least one crew member that they believed they had seen distress signals.

 

An interesting, early post, on this thread deserves re-reading.

 

My wife and I were sitting waiting to see the future cruise consultant were ((sic) probably 'where') our chairs were adjacent the Captain Circle desk. We heard the lady rundown and tell the captain circle guy, Ricardo, about the boat waving a white flag of sorts. Ricardo called someone and than two of the ships officers came to the desk and spoke to the lady.

 

Leaving aside, for the moment, whether poster BBQ has strong views about Carnival and its various lines, .... his account is significant, because he was witness to the reporting of the event to Princess personnel. He says, the report of the 'vessel in distress' was passed more or less immediately from Ricardo, (not a maritime officer but still a Princess employee) to 'ships officers.'

 

If that is true and if it is also true, as Capt Perrin claims, that neither he nor the senior officer of the watch at the time, were ever told of the 'vessel in distress' then the failure of communication is far more serious because it may involve maritime officers.

[TheBestIsYetToCome]

Like everyone, I am heartsick over this situation. The aloneness, the fear....it's haunting. Deepest condolences to those who have lost a loved one or friend.

 

With no boating experience, I know that I would be very alarmed if I were to (be able to) see a boat of that size in that location. I have seen small sail boats, etc. countless times from the balcony, but they were always much, much closer to land and/or appear to be underway. This isn't an area where such tiny boats would normally be fishing, is it??

[PescadoAmarillo]

Hmm - given these guys were from a poor nation like Panama I wonder where they came up with the money for attorneys. Never mind.

Princess has teams of highly educated attorneys on its side, not just in house but likely also outside counsel charging $1000 an hour. Why shouldn't a teen who watched two friends suffer a slow death and then made the painful decision to push their bodies into the sea when they began to rot in the sun while imagining his own fate would be exactly the same also deserve to have one attorney, hired on contingency, looking out for his best interests as he navigates this here-to-fore untraveled course?? I'm a CCL stockholder, but I certainly don't begrudge him that.

 

Why do people some people on this thread insist on blaming the victims? Never mind.