Star Princess investigation

[HImom]

Is there any information that a GOVERNMENT investigation (by any government) is being conducted anywhere? I have not read about anything but an internal investigation.

 

I am not accusing anyone of anything. From all reports I've read to date, Captain Perrin sounds like an amazing and wonderful man and captain who has performed a lot of humanitarian service including rescues in his job. It's very hard to sort out what was communicated to whom, and as has been pointed out, all we have are various conflicting stories which leaves a lot of confusion.

 

Will still be interested to see what happens and if perhaps policies might be changed (as needed) to minimize the likelihood of future tragedies. Personally, I can imagine that it can be difficult to communicate on a ship and that miscommunications can occur.

 

Thanks to all who have helped express their many views on this subject. There is certainly a lot to think about.

[JLC@SD]

Is there any information that a GOVERNMENT investigation (by any government) is being conducted anywhere? I have not read about anything but an internal investigation.

 

Which country has jurisdiction at 06° 12′ 25″ N, 083° 29′ 08″ W.........

[Loonbeam]

There are multiple posts and one thread indicating the Bermudan govt has launched an investigation. As the Star is registered there, they have jursidiction.

 

Is there any information that a GOVERNMENT investigation (by any government) is being conducted anywhere? I have not read about anything but an internal investigation.

 

I am not accusing anyone of anything. From all reports I've read to date, Captain Perrin sounds like an amazing and wonderful man and captain who has performed a lot of humanitarian service including rescues in his job. It's very hard to sort out what was communicated to whom, and as has been pointed out, all we have are various conflicting stories which leaves a lot of confusion.

 

Will still be interested to see what happens and if perhaps policies might be changed (as needed) to minimize the likelihood of future tragedies. Personally, I can imagine that it can be difficult to communicate on a ship and that miscommunications can occur.

 

Thanks to all who have helped express their many views on this subject. There is certainly a lot to think about.

[Pam in CA]

There are multiple posts and one thread indicating the Bermudan govt has launched an investigation. As the Star is registered there, they have jursidiction.

Plus news reports, Cruise Critic articles, etc. The Star Princess is registered in Bermuda and the ship is under Bermudian laws. They have jurisdiction and thus are conducting the investigation. They're not some random country that decided to investigate. http://bermudasun.bm/Main.asp?SectionID=24&SubSectionID=270&ArticleID=58072

[bdjam]

I did not remember anything about a white skirt, so I tried the search function for "skirt"...only your posts showed up. Maybe the search function failed (again)? Or might you have read about the white skirt somewhere else?

 

Pretty sure it was a white 'shirt'...

 

Hee - coulda been...I was pretty sure it was skirt - and maybe I did read about it somewhere else. But the point remains - in the ridiculous comparison with the Concordia incident, the information there was obvious due to the flooding of the ship whereas the information on Star Princess - because it wasn't properly communicated - was not.

[rtlk]

Has anyone heard where Captain Perrin is? Has he returned from vacation or when will he? What is his next assignment?

[HImom]

Anyone with insight on how long these types of maritime investigations generally take? I have absolutely no familiarity with them. Thanks!

[Pam in CA]

Anyone with insight on how long these types of maritime investigations generally take? I have absolutely no familiarity with them. Thanks!

It probably depends. They're still investigating the Concordia.

[HImom]

Somehow, this incident seems more straightforward than the Concordia, as there seem to be fewer involved and it was daylight. I can imagine that the Concordia investigation will take a very, very long time.

[johnmik1]

Has anyone heard where Captain Perrin is? Has he returned from vacation or when will he? What is his next assignment?

 

I received 2 emails from him Sunday and he is still on vacation.

[gooch47]

As for how they got so far away from land, ever heard of ocean currents? Tides? Our boat refused to start slightly off the coast of Captiva Island many years ago. By the time my hubby got it started (thank heavens) we were almost out of sight of land.

[Shogun]

HI All

 

A Captain can have up to 3 months away from his ship, often there will be holiday time, as well as training and stuff that they do a head office, so would not expect him back for a few weeks,

 

Ed Perrin is a very nice captain and if there was the chance of this putting a mark on his record, if I was Princess I would give him the Royal to show he has done nothing wrong.

 

yours shogun

[whitecap]

As for how they got so far away from land, ever heard of ocean currents? Tides? Our boat refused to start slightly off the coast of Captiva Island many years ago. By the time my hubby got it started (thank heavens) we were almost out of sight of land.

 

I've heard of ocean currents; I watched "Message In A Bottle"! My point in discussing the distance from shore was to show how no reporter has reported on the aspect of "personal responsibility". It is easier and gets better headlines to discuss the alleged misconduct of a cruise line. The government of Bermuda has opened an investigation into these allegations and I will wait for the "investigative facts" to be published before making any judgments.

[Loonbeam]

To be fair they covered a lot of that when the story originally broke some time ago. A lot of articles about how fishing boats should not be allowed out without emergency gear, etc.

 

Here's the counter point. Regardless of whether or not the fishing boat had proper gear, etc, if a member of the ship's crew had knowledge of their situation (based on Princess' release we'll take that as a known fact), the ship is a party in the deaths. That's different than legally or morally complicit.

 

A similar scenario on land would be if I saw someone pulled over on the side of the road waving for help, and I did not stop, and later the person I didn't know was in the passenger seat that they were trying to get help for died. By not stopping I decreased the odds of survival minutely.

 

Now legally, it gets a bit trickier. In my land example, I have no legal exposure because there is nothing obligating me to pull over. On the sea, there is.

 

The SOLAS convention states ""The master of a ship at sea which is in a position to be able to provide assistance, on receiving a signal from any source that persons are in distress at sea, is bound to proceed with all speed to their assistance, if possible informing them or the search and rescue service that the ship is doing so." "

 

The bold is my emphasis, and is where the issue with this situation lies in terms of legal responsibility. The ship did receive a signal from a source and failed to follow up. This is not in dispute, even by Princess. Where it gets hazy is if the ship's master is still bound when he or she did not receive the message in a timely manner. This is why Princess is being so closemouthed in my opinion, its a legal gray area so putting anyone's names out there puts that person and the company in legal jeopardy. I won't presume to speak to moral responsibility.

 

The question is ultimately who was responsible for the failure to act, and what will the penalty be, if any. The determining factor there will be if this was a systemic breakdown, or a failure of an individual to follow the system.

 

The following is my opinion ONLY - Based on the facts at hand, Capt. Perrin will not receive any mark on his personnel record. He will be guilty in the court of public opinion no matter what and that will have some effect, but it will fade over time. The situation will be the same for other bridge officers, although they will not be named and thus suffer less of the public outrage. If it is found out that someone did not follow procedure, that person will be turned over for criminal prosecution. If it turns out that the procedure was inadequate, Princess will make a big deal of revising it while facing a negligence lawsuit.

 

I suspect it will be about 2-3 months until we hear anything from the Bermudan inquiry.

 

 

 

 

 

I've heard of ocean currents; I watched "Message In A Bottle"! My point in discussing the distance from shore was to show how no reporter has reported on the aspect of "personal responsibility". It is easier and gets better headlines to discuss the alleged misconduct of a cruise line. The government of Bermuda has opened an investigation into these allegations and I will wait for the "investigative facts" to be published before making any judgments.

[whitecap]

The SOLAS convention states ""The master of a ship at sea which is in a position to be able to provide assistance, on receiving a signal from any source that persons are in distress at sea, is bound to proceed with all speed to their assistance, if possible informing them or the search and rescue service that the ship is doing so." "

 

I agree and it will come down to the comments made by the bird watchers: what words they used, the information contained in the statement and the urgency applied; who did the bird watcher(s) talk to (so far I've read post that indicated it was a ship's officer, someone at the Purser's Desk right down to the Future Cruise person) and what responsibility does that person have. There is a lot yet to be learned.

[Mom33]

To be fair they covered a lot of that when the story originally broke some time ago. A lot of articles about how fishing boats should not be allowed out without emergency gear, etc.

 

Here's the counter point. Regardless of whether or not the fishing boat had proper gear, etc, if a member of the ship's crew had knowledge of their situation (based on Princess' release we'll take that as a known fact), the ship is a party in the deaths. That's different than legally or morally complicit.

 

A similar scenario on land would be if I saw someone pulled over on the side of the road waving for help, and I did not stop, and later the person I didn't know was in the passenger seat that they were trying to get help for died. By not stopping I decreased the odds of survival minutely.

 

Now legally, it gets a bit trickier. In my land example, I have no legal exposure because there is nothing obligating me to pull over. On the sea, there is.

 

The SOLAS convention states ""The master of a ship at sea which is in a position to be able to provide assistance, on receiving a signal from any source that persons are in distress at sea, is bound to proceed with all speed to their assistance, if possible informing them or the search and rescue service that the ship is doing so." "

 

The bold is my emphasis, and is where the issue with this situation lies in terms of legal responsibility. The ship did receive a signal from a source and failed to follow up. This is not in dispute, even by Princess. Where it gets hazy is if the ship's master is still bound when he or she did not receive the message in a timely manner. This is why Princess is being so closemouthed in my opinion, its a legal gray area so putting anyone's names out there puts that person and the company in legal jeopardy. I won't presume to speak to moral responsibility.

 

The question is ultimately who was responsible for the failure to act, and what will the penalty be, if any. The determining factor there will be if this was a systemic breakdown, or a failure of an individual to follow the system.

 

The following is my opinion ONLY - Based on the facts at hand, Capt. Perrin will not receive any mark on his personnel record. He will be guilty in the court of public opinion no matter what and that will have some effect, but it will fade over time. The situation will be the same for other bridge officers, although they will not be named and thus suffer less of the public outrage. If it is found out that someone did not follow procedure, that person will be turned over for criminal prosecution. If it turns out that the procedure was inadequate, Princess will make a big deal of revising it while facing a negligence lawsuit.

 

I suspect it will be about 2-3 months until we hear anything from the Bermudan inquiry.

 

This is not confirmed. It may be that they received the message in the bridge, there was no cause for action, but the birders were not satisfied because the ship didn't stop or turn around.

There could be confusion as to what boat the birders were referring to and the one the ship checked on. The original explanation that the boat the ship saw was only waving hello and thanks may be where the story falls apart.

 

The birders went out of their way a month later to connect the ship and the fishing boat that was lost. It may be that the lost boat was seen by neither the ship or the birders, or only by the birders since other boats were visible to the ship.

 

It seems odd to me that the survivor never mentioned a "big white ship" in his interviews after rescue, but only after being contacted by the birders.

[caribill]

It seems odd to me that the survivor never mentioned a "big white ship" in his interviews after rescue, but only after being contacted by the birders.

 

And did not mention Star Princess until shown a picture of the Star Princess which looks like many other ships at a distance of over a mile.

[whitecap]

And did not mention Star Princess until shown a picture of the Star Princess which looks like many other ships at a distance of over a mile.

 

Agree!

[RickEk]

And did not mention Star Princess until shown a picture of the Star Princess which looks like many other ships at a distance of over a mile.

 

The birders estimated the distance to be 2.5 miles...

[Loonbeam]

Princess has acknowledged the message was received by a staff member..

 

From their own press release:

 

"ince we became aware of this incident, we have been investigating circumstances surrounding the claim that Star Princess failed to come to the aid of the disabled boat, after a crew member was alerted by passengers. " "The preliminary results of our investigation have shown that there appeared to be a breakdown in communication in relaying the passenger's concern."

 

As soon as crew member has been alerted by passengers, for the purposes of SOLAS, the ship has received a report. Whether it reached the bridge or not is a question of degree, not action. Legally, its a grey area once you get past the initial report.

 

If the birders report had been relayed to the captain and a due diligence check revealed no ship in distress it would have been a different issue.

 

 

 

 

This is not confirmed. It may be that they received the message in the bridge, there was no cause for action, but the birders were not satisfied because the ship didn't stop or turn around.

There could be confusion as to what boat the birders were referring to and the one the ship checked on. The original explanation that the boat the ship saw was only waving hello and thanks may be where the story falls apart.

 

The birders went out of their way a month later to connect the ship and the fishing boat that was lost. It may be that the lost boat was seen by neither the ship or the birders, or only by the birders since other boats were visible to the ship.

 

It seems odd to me that the survivor never mentioned a "big white ship" in his interviews after rescue, but only after being contacted by the birders.

[PescadoAmarillo]

It seems odd to me that the survivor never mentioned a "big white ship" in his interviews after rescue, but only after being contacted by the birders.

That's odd. I definitely read in one of the reports that the rescued sailor DID mention a cruise ship prior to the connecting of the dots.

[2BeOnaBoat]

The master of a ship at sea which is in a position to be able to provide assistance, on receiving a signal from any source

 

So the question is whether the master knew?

[Loonbeam]

Exactly. Princess has stated he didn't, but independent confirmation is required before he can be 'cleared'.

 

So the question is whether the master knew?

[Mom33]

That's odd. I definitely read in one of the reports that the rescued sailor DID mention a cruise ship prior to the connecting of the dots.

 

The reports I read were when he was first rescued. There was no mention of a ship in the first reports. A subsequent report, after the birder sent him the picture they took of the boat they assume he was in, he talked about a big white ship. I believe he even said that he was waving a red cloth and his friend, was waving an orange life jacket. However she never mentioned an orange life jacket in her first reports. The picture they took shows nothing red or orange as far as I can tell.

 

All the above of course is dependent on "accurate" journalism. There are many descrepancies between journalists reporting all that the public really knows at this time.

[bdjam]

Exactly. Princess has stated he didn't, but independent confirmation is required before he can be 'cleared'.

I can't understand any reason why - if Captain Perrin did know about the stranded boat and that it was in distress - he wouldn't have stopped to investigate. It's unlike his behavior and it's unlike Princess' policies. While there are plenty of accusations that he ignored the plight of the boat, there's no logical reason why he would.