The Snootiest Ship in the DAM fleet!!

[startwin]

Oh DEFINATELY apples and oranges, what I meant is that is is expensive, (about the same rate) and I am sure IRLJoanie did not expect to get medical care for that rate. She only expected communication.

So therefore, I guess what I meant to say, is for that rate, communication and a cohesive plan would be in order.

 

We all know HAL (no matter how much I love them) has a major communication issue. This, and a cohesive plan is what I think everyone should be after.

 

IRL Joanie's choice to go on that was her own, and I do not blame her. Id rather be on a Dam Ship on any Dam day. LOL. That was her choice, her perogative.

 

But the bottom line is from HAL we all need: communication, a cohesive plan of action and an unobstructed escape route to the drill/lifeboats that anyone can get to, is what's needed...

 

Sorry if my post did not make much sense. I was just thinking, hey thats about what she paid! She deserved good service absolutely (communication and such). I did not think ever for a HOT MINUTE that she wanted medical care.

 

For that she would just go to the medical office, and there are no crazy door lips, so she could get there just fine. :)

 

Communication has to be both ways. Joanie clearly said she went on the cruise against her doctors orders. She should have made HAL aware of that if she required as much help as she demanded - and some of the demands were unreasonable.

[lovetocruise2020]

Communication has to be both ways. Joanie clearly said she went on the cruise against her doctors orders. She should have made HAL aware of that if she required as much help as she demanded - and some of the demands were unreasonable.

 

Yes, it was the op choice to go on the cruise... But what does that have to do with the problem of clearing the doorway?

 

I think the only issue from what i read, was the major lip in the doorway? Was there not an obstruction, i doubt there would have been an issue. I think its HALs responsability to make each area accessible to all. IRLJoanie is not the only handicapped pax HAL has ever had.

 

There are laws here in the US to make all public places accessible...

 

And HAL is famous for not communicating... So makes sense to me.

 

Have an accessible route and this issue turns into a non issue... :)

[sail7seas]

Oh DEFINATELY apples and oranges, what I meant is that is is expensive, (about the same rate) and I am sure IRLJoanie did not expect to get medical care for that rate. She only expected communication.

 

 

<snip>[/b]

 

 

 

She did expect more......

 

She expected the life boat commander come to her to discuss how he would handle her situation. That is not the job of the life boat commander and never should have been expected. ....... Not to mention he isn't allowed in a passenger's cabin.

 

[taxmantoo]

Thank you. Why would your copy of the contract be different from the contract on the website? [ http://www.hollandamerica.com/legalAndPrivacy/Main.action?tabName=Cruise/Cruisetour%20Contract# ] Why would your copy only be available when you print your documents? Isn't that a little to decide whether you want to abide by the contract's terms?

 

“For those who understand, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't understand, no explanation is possible”

[sapper1]

“For those who understand, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't understand, no explanation is possible”

 

Perfect.

[Wakepatrol]

“For those who understand, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't understand, no explanation is possible”

 

 

So beautiful...it needs a bow on it:)

[cruz chic]

Oh DEFINATELY apples and oranges, what I meant is that is is expensive, (about the same rate) and I am sure IRLJoanie did not expect to get medical care for that rate. She only expected communication.

So therefore, I guess what I meant to say, is for that rate, communication and a cohesive plan would be in order.

 

We all know HAL (no matter how much I love them) has a major communication issue. This, and a cohesive plan is what I think everyone should be after.

 

IRL Joanie's choice to go on that was her own, and I do not blame her. Id rather be on a Dam Ship on any Dam day. LOL. That was her choice, her perogative.

 

But the bottom line is from HAL we all need: communication, a cohesive plan of action and an unobstructed escape route to the drill/lifeboats that anyone can get to, is what's needed...

 

Sorry if my post did not make much sense. I was just thinking, hey thats about what she paid! She deserved good service absolutely (communication and such). I did not think ever for a HOT MINUTE that she wanted medical care.

 

For that she would just go to the medical office, and there are no crazy door lips, so she could get there just fine. :)

I agree, communication is the core of the issue here. It seems that that is ignored by a lot of the posters here that believe that HAL can do no wrong. I don't think that HAL should do anything less then make it accessible for it's passengers.

[boulders]

I agree, communication is the core of the issue here. It seems that that is ignored by a lot of the posters here that believe that HAL can do no wrong. I don't think that HAL should do anything less then make it accessible for it's passengers.

 

There ARE accessible cabins. The OP did not book one. I was on the N.A. for most of this past July. There was a 3-4 inch step up to get into the bathroom in our cabin. If there are steps to get into the bathroom - then what is the big deal about a "lip" to get out to a deck?

[innlady1]

“For those who understand, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't understand, no explanation is possible”

 

Ditto to perfect...

[innlady1]

There ARE accessible cabins. The OP did not book one. I was on the N.A. for most of this past July. There was a 3-4 inch step up to get into the bathroom in our cabin. If there are steps to get into the bathroom - then what is the big deal about a "lip" to get out to a deck?

 

That's a good point. I haven't been on the NA but have been on the Noordam...there is also a "lip" at the verandah door. Is that true on the Signature class ships as well?

[cruz chic]

There ARE accessible cabins. The OP did not book one. I was on the N.A. for most of this past July. There was a 3-4 inch step up to get into the bathroom in our cabin. If there are steps to get into the bathroom - then what is the big deal about a "lip" to get out to a deck?

I can't speak to the bathroom as I was not in there. Wouldn't you agree that the route to the drill s/b accessible, especially based on the pax HAL generally attracts?

[Jade13]

There ARE accessible cabins. The OP did not book one. I was on the N.A. for most of this past July. There was a 3-4 inch step up to get into the bathroom in our cabin. If there are steps to get into the bathroom - then what is the big deal about a "lip" to get out to a deck?

 

Good point.

[sail7seas]

That's a good point. I haven't been on the NA but have been on the Noordam...there is also a "lip" at the verandah door. Is that true on the Signature class ships as well?

 

 

Yes. The same.

 

[startwin]

I can't speak to the bathroom as I was not in there. Wouldn't you agree that the route to the drill s/b accessible, especially based on the pax HAL generally attracts?

 

But it is. During the safety drill there are crew members at the doors. Other handicapped people make it through, the riser in the doorway makes it possible for wheelchairs and scooters to get through the door. Wheelchair accessible cabins have a roll-in bathroom.

 

A ship has to have doors that lock tight, and I think that all the cruise lines have done as much as they possibly can to accommodate the handicapped without compromising the safety of all passengers. We come back to the point, then, that sometimes cruising is not the best option if someone is so dependent on others for their well-being and safety especially if their travelling companion is not able to assist.

[trixiee]

But it is. During the safety drill there are crew members at the doors. Other handicapped people make it through, the riser in the doorway makes it possible for wheelchairs and scooters to get through the door. Wheelchair accessible cabins have a roll-in bathroom.

 

A ship has to have doors that lock tight, and I think that all the cruise lines have done as much as they possibly can to accommodate the handicapped without compromising the safety of all passengers. We come back to the point, then, that sometimes cruising is not the best option if someone is so dependent on others for their well-being and safety especially if their travelling companion is not able to assist.

 

I'm in 100% agreement here!

 

Last cruise we booked a GTY, and ended up with a handicap verandah cabin. We enjoyed the extra space, and noticed that there was a small ramp available for a wheelchair to get out onto the verandah. I'm pretty sure that it was removed, as the crew noticed we did not need it.

 

As far as getting to the drill, I think everyone needs to take the personal responsibility to ensure you get there. HAL is pretty clear about the traveling companion.

 

Did Joannie inform HAL about all of her limitations prior to boarding?

[cruz chic]

But it is. During the safety drill there are crew members at the doors. Other handicapped people make it through, the riser in the doorway makes it possible for wheelchairs and scooters to get through the door. Wheelchair accessible cabins have a roll-in bathroom.

 

A ship has to have doors that lock tight, and I think that all the cruise lines have done as much as they possibly can to accommodate the handicapped without compromising the safety of all passengers. We come back to the point, then, that sometimes cruising is not the best option if someone is so dependent on others for their well-being and safety especially if their travelling companion is not able to assist.

I'm speaking more about the part where Joanie said that she had to go through part of the galley to get to the drill. This is what I am speaking about. I don't really understand it because I haven't booked one of those cabins. When I originally tore my menicus in 2008 I got a wake up call as to how difficult it was for handicaped people to get around. Because it's healed to a certain degree it doesn't keep me from doing a lot but it was a huge pain and one I haven't forgotten about. I think sometimes people aren't as understanding as they could be because they haven't been in the situation. I am not speaking of you. Maybe there is something I'm not understanding about her post. I still think that HAL failed in it's communication. Why didn't they just come out and tell her good luck with that instead of leading her on to believe there would be some assistance?

[IRL_Joanie]

Just going to post to this thread this one last time!!

 

FOR THE RECORD;

 

NO WHERE in my original post, nor since then, have I stated that I went on these cruises against Doctors Orders!!!!

 

I stated that I went: QUOTE "against my doctors advice" UNQUOTE

 

I did not state which of my doctors said this, nor is it anyone's business, but for the record it was my Dermatologist who advised me because she was afraid I might run out of my Anti Itch Cream (Betamethasone Dipropionate and my Atarax (Which I did not run out of.)

 

My Orthopedist and Primary Care Physician both thought this was an excellent chance for me to get away from it all and that JUST POSSIBLY the warmer climate and higher humidity might just help my acute dermatitis problem(s)!! And they were right!!!

 

So, instead of sitting in judgement as to someone's ability or capability of cruising, ask before you jump to conclusions.

 

I will not post another review of any ship since a few of CC's members have decided to sit in judgement and I do not feel like being ripped to shreds again.

 

My thanks to those few of you who understood what I said and did not read into the review what you wanted to, but what I actually wrote:)

 

All I ask this one time is that you think before you post......I know I will!!

 

Joanie

[Funsun60]

Several years ago when we were in Hawaii staying at a high rise condo, the fire alarm went off, the elevators locked down, and all residents had to use the stairs to evacuate. We were on the 16th floor, and at first, the evacuation was quite orderly as people filled the stairwells. It was slow moving as there were several people in wheelchairs, using walkers, canes, etc. As we came down to the lower levels, the smell of smoke became apparent. People suddenly were not quite as patient waiting for those with some type of disability. Some pushing started as people tried to make their way around those who were moving very slowly. The fire was small and was contained, so thankfully,there were no injuries either from the fire or panic stricken people stampeding in the stairwell.. However, I made up my mind at that point to

1. Never stay on a floor in a hotel/condo that is higher than what fire fighter rescue ladders can reach.

2. If/when I may become unable to be reasonably mobile, to stay on the lowest floors in a hotel.

Having observed some of the severe mobility issues with PAX on our last cruise, we would probably not cruise if we were not reasonably able to manage to get ourselves to critical safely exit areas. No matter what we hope for, all the best laid plans can go awry in a real emergency situation and human nature takes over. Even if the crew are well trained and fulfilling their professional duties during a real emergency, I don't think I would want to put myself (or my husband) in a position of having to rely soley on the consideration of other PAX. Fear and self preservation often take over above the awareness of the needs of others.

[whogo]

Thank you. Why would your copy of the contract be different from the contract on the website? [ http://www.hollandamerica.com/legalAndPrivacy/Main.action?tabName=Cruise/Cruisetour%20Contract# ] Why would your copy only be available when you print your documents? Isn't that a little late to decide whether you want to abide by the contract's terms?

 

“For those who understand, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't understand, no explanation is possible”

 

If I guess the reason, will you tell me?

 

1. The website cruise contract is different from the final document cruise contract due to an oversight by Holland America.

 

2. The website cruise contract is different from the final document cruise contract to help litigators rake in the big bucks by having one more thing to argue about in court.

 

3. The website cruise contract is different from the final document cruise contract because Holland America does not want you to know all the facts until it is too late to cancel your cruise without penalty.

 

The website's cruise contract follows. You will find nothing about the emergency drill.

Cruise Contract

 

 

Print this page

 

IMPORTANT TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF CONTRACT--READ CAREFULLY BEFORE ACCEPTING

 

 

Cruise Contract

Passenger Copy

Terms and Conditions

ISSUED SUBJECT TO THE IMPORTANT TERMS AND CONDITIONS ON THIS PAGE AND THE FOLLOWING PAGES. READ TERMS AND CONDITIONS CAREFULLY BEFORE ACCEPTING.

____________________________________________________________________

IMPORTANT NOTICE TO PASSENGERS

THIS DOCUMENT IS A LEGALLY BINDING CONTRACT BETWEEN YOU AND US. THIS CONTRACT CONTAINS ALL TERMS OF OUR AGREEMENT AND SUPERCEDES ALL OTHER ORAL, IMPLIED OR WRITTEN AGREEMENTS, COMMUNICATIONS OR REPRESENTATIONS. THE WORD “YOU” REFERS TO ALL PERSONS BOOKING OR PURCHASING THE CRUISE OR CRUISETOUR OR TRAVELING UNDER THIS CONTRACT AND PERSONS IN THEIR CARE INCLUDING ANY MINOR, AND THEIR HEIRS, SUCCESSORS IN INTEREST AND PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVES. THE WORDS “WE” AND “US” REFER TO THE OWNER, PROVIDER AND THE OTHER HOLLAND AMERICA LINE AND SEABOURN COMPANIES, ALL OF WHICH ARE DESCRIBED IN CLAUSE A.1 BELOW. CERTAIN OTHER PERSONS AND ENTITIES, AS WELL AS THE SHIP ITSELF, ARE ALSO GRANTED RIGHTS UNDER THIS CONTRACT.

NOTICE: YOUR ATTENTION IS ESPECIALLY DIRECTED TO CLAUSES A.1, A.3, A.4, A.5, A.6, A.7, A.9 and C.4 BELOW, WHICH CONTAIN IMPORTANT LIMITATIONS ON YOUR RIGHT TO ASSERT CLAIMS AGAINST US AND CERTAIN THIRD PARTIES, INCLUDING THE FORUM AND TIME FOR FILING SUIT.

THIS CONTRACT ALSO INCLUDES THE CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH PROVIDER BOOKS AIR TRANSPORTATION IF YOU ARE PARTICIPATING IN PROVIDER’S AIR PACKAGE. IF ANY OF THESE CONDITIONS DO NOT MEET WITH YOUR APPROVAL, YOU HAVE THE OPTION OF ARRANGING AIR TRANSPORTATION INDEPENDENTLY IN WHICH EVENT, THE AIR ADD-ON OR CRUISE ONLY CREDIT AMOUNT PAID TO PROVIDER WILL BE REFUNDED.

ALL DISPUTES AND MATTERS WHATSOEVER ARISING UNDER, IN CONNECTION WITH OR INCIDENT TO THIS CONTRACT, THE CRUISE, THE CRUISETOUR, THE LAND TRIP OR THE AIR PACKAGE SHALL BE LITIGATED, IF AT ALL, IN AND BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON AT SEATTLE, OR, AS TO THOSE LAWSUITS AS TO WHICH THE FEDERAL COURTS OF THE UNITED STATES LACK SUBJECT MATTER JURISDICTION, IN THE COURTS OF KING COUNTY, STATE OF WASHINGTON, U.S.A., TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHER COURTS.

______________________________________________________________________________

IMPORTANT TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF CONTRACT--READ CAREFULLY BEFORE ACCEPTING

A. GENERAL PROVISIONS

1. Important Definitions/Refunds/Third Party Beneficiaries: (a) “Ship” refers to the ship that will provide the ocean transportation portion of the Cruise or Cruisetour. “Owner” refers to the owner and, where applicable, charterer of the Ship; the WESTERDAM, ZUIDERDAM, OOSTERDAM, PRINSENDAM, AMSTERDAM, ZAANDAM, EURODAM, VOLENDAM, NOORDAM and NIEUW AMSTERDAM are owned by HAL Antillen N.V., a Curacao corporation, and are chartered by Holland America Line N.V., a Curacao corporation; the STATENDAM, MAASDAM, RYNDAM, VEENDAM and ROTTERDAM are owned by HAL Nederland N.V., a Curacao corporation, and are chartered by Holland America Line N.V.; the PRIDE, SPIRIT, LEGEND, ODYSSEY, SOJOURN and QUEST are owned by Seabourn Cruise Line Limited, a Bermuda company (“Seabourn”). Ship ownership and registry are subject to change. “Cruise” and “Cruisetour” refer to the specific cruise or cruisetour indicated in this document (Cruisetours are only offered by HAL), as it may be modified by us under this contract, and shall include periods during which you are embarking or disembarking the Ship or are on shore while the Ship is in port. “HAL” refers to Holland America Line Inc., a Washington (U.S.A.) corporation that acts as the agent of Owner and the other Companies. “Provider” refers to HAL or Seabourn, as applicable to your Cruise. “Companies” refers to Owner, HAL, Seabourn, Westours Motor Coaches, LLC d/b/a Gray Line of Alaska, Royal Hyway Tours, Inc., Westmark Hotels, Inc., Westmark Hotels of Canada Ltd., Worldwide Shore Services Inc., HAL Properties Limited, HAL Services B.V. and any other corporate affiliate of HAL and Seabourn that provides or is expected to provide you with goods or services as part of or incident to your Cruise, Cruisetour, Air Package or Land Trip. “Initial Departure” means the time at which you first begin transit by any means of transport booked by us (including air transportation) for the purpose of taking the Cruise or Cruisetour. “Air Package” refers to air transportation booked for you by us to enable you to travel to and from your Cruise or Cruisetour. “Land Trip” refers to a pre- or post-Cruise or Cruisetour package or transfer you have purchased (excluding any Air Package), or to a shore excursion you purchase during your Cruise or Cruisetour, on which you are traveling on one or more motorcoaches, dayboats and/or railcars owned or operated by us. “Land Trip” also refers to any visit by you to Half Moon Cay (on the island of Little San Salvador) in the Bahamas (“Half Moon Cay”).

(b) “Refund Amount” refers to that portion of the Cruise, Cruisetour, Land Trip or Air Package fare which has actually been received by us. A portion of your fare was retained by or paid to your travel agent to compensate the agent for their services. The Refund Amount does not include the portion of the fare retained by or paid to your agent. You are solely responsible for obtaining the refund of these retained or paid amounts. Any refund to you will be made only in the currency received by us and in the country in which the fare has been paid and subject to any foreign exchange regulations in force in that country.

© Certain third parties derive rights and exemptions from liability as a result of this contract. Specifically, all of our rights, exemptions from liability, defenses and immunities under this contract (including, but not limited to, those arising under Clauses A.3, A.4, A.5, A.6, A.7, A.9 and C.4), the provisions of the forum selection clause, or applicable law will also inure to the benefit of our employees and agents, together with the Alaska Railroad Corporation, the Ship and the Ship's tenders, operators, managers, charterers, officers, staff, crewmembers, shipbuilders and manufacturers of all component parts and all suppliers, shore excursion or tour operators, Ship’s physician, Ship’s nurse, retail shop personnel, health and beauty staff, fitness staff, photographers and other concessionaires and independent contractors. These third parties will have no liability to you, either in contract or in tort, which is greater than or different from ours.

2. Providing Cruise, Cruisetour, Land Trips and Air Package: In consideration of the receipt in full of the fare and subject to the terms and conditions of this contract: (a) Owner agrees to transport you on the Ship in order to enable you to take the Ship portion of the Cruise or Cruisetour; (b) as to Cruisetours, HAL agrees to provide you with the portion of the Cruisetour that occurs either before your initial embarkation onto, or after your final disembarkation off of, the Ship; © as to Land Trips, each Company furnishing a portion of the Land Trip agrees to provide you with that portion; and (d) as to Air Packages, Provider agrees to book the air transportation required at the commencement and conclusion of your Cruise or Cruisetour. This contract is valid only for the Cruise or Cruisetour and for the stateroom specified in this contract or assigned by us. The person accepting this contract represents that he/she is authorized by all persons on the same booking to accept and agree to be bound by the terms and conditions of this contract on their behalf. Although this contract refers to Owner, Provider and the Companies as “we” and “us,” no Owner or Company shall be liable for the acts or omissions of any other Owner or Company or with respect to the services provided or to be provided by any other Owner or Company.

3. Time Limits for Noticing Claims, Filing and Service of Lawsuits; Forum for Legal Action: All disputes and matters whatsoever arising under, in connection with or incident to this contract, the Cruise, the Cruisetour, the Land Trip or the Air Package, including without limitation claims against third parties other than Provider, are governed by the following time limits for noticing claims, and filing and service of lawsuits:

(a) In any case governed by 46 United States Code Section 30508, which is a United States statute that permits any shipowner to limit the time during which a passenger may file a claim or commence suit, you may not maintain any lawsuit as described herein against us or any third party or the Ship for loss of life or personal injury, including emotional distress, unless written notice of the claim is delivered to us not later than six (6) months after the day of death or injury, any lawsuit is commenced not later than one (l) year after the day of death or injury, and valid service of the lawsuit on Owner, the Company or the Ship or any third party, as applicable, is made within thirty (30) days following the expiration of that one-year period.

(b) For all other claims, including but not limited to claims for loss or damage to baggage, breach of contract, misrepresentation, illness or death or injury, not governed by 46 United States Code Section 30508, whether based on contract, tort, statutory, constitutional or other legal rights, including but not limited to alleged violation of civil rights, discrimination, consumer or privacy laws, or for any losses, damages or expenses, relating to or in any way arising out of or connected with this contract or your Cruise, no matter how described, pleaded or styled, you may not maintain a lawsuit against us or the Ship or any third party, nor will we or the Ship or such third parties be liable therefore, unless we are provided with written notice of claim within thirty (30) days after conclusion of the Cruise or Cruisetour, the lawsuit for such claim is commenced not later than six months after conclusion of the Cruise or Cruisetour, and valid service of the lawsuit on Owner, the Ship or the Company or any third party, as applicable, is made within thirty (30) days following the expiration of that six-month period.

© In the case of a claim by or on behalf of a minor or legally incompetent person, or in the case of a wrongful death claim, the time periods described above shall begin to run on the earlier of: (a) date of appointment of a legal representative for the minor or legally incompetent person, or their estate (as the case may be); or (b) three (3) years after the day of death, injury or damage, as applicable.

ALL DISPUTES AND MATTERS WHATSOEVER ARISING UNDER, IN CONNECTION WITH OR INCIDENT TO THIS CONTRACT, THE CRUISE, THE CRUISETOUR, THE LAND TRIP OR THE AIR PACKAGE SHALL BE LITIGATED, IF AT ALL, IN AND BEFORE THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON AT SEATTLE, OR, AS TO THOSE LAWSUITS AS TO WHICH THE FEDERAL COURTS OF THE UNITED STATES LACK SUBJECT MATTER JURISDICTION, IN THE COURTS OF KING COUNTY, STATE OF WASHINGTON, U.S.A., TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHER COURTS.

4. Limitation on Liability; Governing Law; Non-Provider Services: (a) In the event you are injured, become ill, or die, or your property is lost or damaged, or you and/or your property is delayed, or you sustain any other loss or damage whatsoever, we will not be liable to you unless the occurrence was due to our negligence or willful fault. We disclaim liability to you under any circumstances for infliction of emotional distress, mental suffering or psychological injury which was not: (i) the result of physical injury to you caused by the negligence or fault of a crewmember or the manager, agent, master, owner or operator of the Ship; (ii) the result of you having been at actual risk of physical injury caused by the negligence or fault of a crewmember or the manager, agent, master, owner or operator of the Ship; or (iii) intentionally inflicted by a crewmember or the manager, agent, master, owner or operator of the Ship. In no event will we be liable to you for consequential, incidental, exemplary or punitive damages.

(b) This contract is issued at Seattle, Washington. As to any Cruise that does not begin, end or call at a port in the United States of America, we shall be entitled to any and all damages limitations, immunities and rights applicable to us under the “Convention Relating to the Carriage of Passengers and Their Luggage by Sea” of 1974 as well as the “Protocol to the Convention Relating to the Carriage of Passengers and Their Luggage by Sea” of 1976 (“Athens Convention”). The Athens Convention limits our liability for death or personal injury of a passenger to no more than 46,666 Special Drawing Rights as defined therein (approximately U.S. $70,000, which fluctuates depending on the daily exchange rate as published in the Wall Street Journal). In addition, and on all other cruises, all the exemptions from and limitations of liability provided in or authorized by the laws of the United States shall apply, including Title 46 of the United States Code, sections 30501 through 30509 and 30511. Except as otherwise set forth, this contract shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the general maritime law of the United States; to the extent such maritime law is not applicable, it shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of Washington (U.S.A.).

© We do not undertake to supervise, nor assume any liability in respect of, the acts or omissions of the Ship's physician, Ship’s nurse, retail shop personnel, health and beauty staff, photographers or any other third party providing services, all of whom are either independent contractors or are employed by independent contractors, and work directly for the passenger when performing their services. As to your Cruisetour and Land Trips, certain transportation may be provided using equipment owned or operated by us. All other transportation, shore excursions, accommodations and services in the air and on shore (referred to as “Non-Provider Services”) are performed by third parties who are independent contractors, and not by us. We neither supervise nor control the activities provided by Non-Provider Services and assume no liability and make no representation either express or implied as to their suitability. By way of example only, Non-Provider Services include goods and services provided by shoreside physicians, air ambulance, hotels, restaurants, airlines (including the airline(s) used in any Air Package), railroads, shore excursion and tour operators (other than us), helicopter operators, amusement park operators, dayboat operators and motorcoach operators. As a result, you are assuming the entire risk of utilizing Non-Provider Services subject only to whatever terms or arrangements are made by you or on your behalf with the third party furnishing the Non-Provider Service. Money received in respect of Non-Provider Services by us is received only as an independent contractor, to be paid to the third party (less retained commission, if any). We will not be liable for the refund of this money to you except to the extent retained and not owed by us to a third party providing Non-Provider Services. Similarly, any medical examination or treatment you receive from medical personnel aboard ship during the Cruise, Cruisetour or Land Trip, is provided solely for your convenience by independent contractors rather than our agents or employees. We do not undertake to supervise the medical expertise of any such personnel and will not be liable for the consequences of any examination, advice, diagnosis, medication, treatment, prognosis or other professional services which a doctor or nurse may furnish or fail to furnish to you. Furthermore, you may be charged for such professional services.

(d) You assume all risks for injury, death or loss as a consequence of your use of the Ship's athletic or recreational equipment or as a consequence of criminal conduct by any third party. Except as otherwise specified in Clause A.4(b) with regard to Cruises that do not begin, end or call at a port in the United States of America, in addition to the limitations of, and exemptions from, liability granted under this contract, we also retain any and all limitations of, and exemptions from, liability accorded to shipowners and tour operators by statute or rule of law including, without limitation, those provided for in 46 United States Code Sections 30501 through 30509 and 30511, which are United States statutes limiting the liability of vessel owners.

(e) During your Cruise and the Ship portion of your Cruisetour, we are transporting you and your property only between ports of call. At ports where the Ship is unable to dock, we will arrange for appropriate transportation from the place where the Ship is at anchor to the dock. Persons with mobility impairments traveling on a HAL Ship should refer to the Before You Go page of HAL’s website (http://www.hollandamerica.com/cruise-vacation-planning/PlanningAndAdvice.action?tabName=Shipboard+Life&contentMenu=Accessible+Cruising) regarding limitations on our ability to help you go ashore. Persons with mobility impairments traveling on a Seabourn Ship should refer to the Health and Safety Section of the Frequently Asked Questions page on Seabourn’s website ( http://www.seabourn.com/luxury-cruise-vacation-planning/Planning-And-Advice.action?tabName=Frequently+Asked+Questions&contentMenu=Health%2C+Safety+%26+Security&content

SubMenu=Where+Do+I+Find+Information+About+Accessibility%3F) or the Exclusive Travel Planner for Seabourn cruises regarding limitations on our ability to help you go ashore.

5. Change in Itinerary/Cancellation/Cabotage Laws: (a) Although we will use our best efforts to provide you with the Cruise, Cruisetour and/or Land Trips, situations may occur which require that changes be made. By way of example only, we may adjust itineraries and schedules, delay departures or arrivals, or cancel a Cruise, Cruisetour or Land Trip, due to casualty, weather, labor problems, the need to render assistance to others, governmental or insurer directives, passenger or employee injury or illness, schedule delays or changes by third parties, repair and maintenance requirements, fuel or other shortages, or damage to the Ship, other means of transportation, roads, tracks, bridges, docks, equipment or machinery. Furthermore, the Master of the Ship or of any other vessel as well as the operator of any other means of transportation may, in his/her sole discretion, elect not to proceed in the ordinary course. Consequently, we cannot guarantee the itinerary of the Cruise, Cruisetour or any Land Trip (including time of sailing from or arrival at any port or that all ports will, in fact, be called at, or that all places on your Cruisetour or Land Trip will be visited). We reserve the right to provide you with alternative transportation whenever the Cruise, Cruisetour or Land Trip is unable to proceed or be completed in the ordinary course or, in the case of hotels, to substitute facilities of similar category in cases where the planned hotel is unavailable due to overbooking or otherwise.

(b) Your safety is very important to us. For safety or other reasons that we believe qualify as good cause, we may, without notice, substitute any suitable ship, ships or other means of transportation, change any date of sailing or travel or cancel any sailing, Cruisetour segment, port of call, Cruisetour or Land Trip destination or stopover, or the entire Land Trip, Cruise or Cruisetour.

© If the Cruise or Cruisetour or a Land Trip is cancelled, we may disembark you at any port or terminate your travel at any location, and transship and forward (at our expense, but at your risk) you and your property to or toward a port or location from which you may return home or to the Ship, as appropriate. The means of conveyance may or may not belong to us and may or may not proceed directly to the desired destination. If a Cruise, Cruisetour or Land Trip is cancelled before commencement, you will be entitled, as your exclusive remedy, to receive the applicable Refund Amount. If a Cruise, Cruisetour or Land Trip is cancelled after commencement, you will be entitled, as your exclusive remedy, to receive the applicable Refund Amount less a reasonable allowance for transportation and services already provided to you. The reasonable allowance will be determined on a pro rata basis by taking into account the time missed relative to the scheduled duration of the Cruise, Cruisetour or Land Trip. Notwithstanding the foregoing, we are not obligated to issue any refund to you in the event of a cancelled Land Trip to Half Moon Cay.

(d) You acknowledge that for round trip cruises commencing in a country that stop in other ports of that country, you may visit but may not permanently disembark in any port in that country other than the port of embarkation. If you do disembark in a different port in that country, a fine or penalty may be imposed by that country’s government. In consideration of the fare paid, you hereby agree to pay any such fine or penalty imposed because of your failure to complete the entire Cruise.

6. Authority to Deny Transportation, Confine and Remove Passengers: We may determine that for your safety, the safety of the Ship or other means of transportation or the safety or comfort of other passengers or our employees, you should be denied transportation or other services either before or during the Cruise, Cruisetour or Land Trip. In any such circumstance you may be confined to your stateroom, quarantined, restrained or refused participation in any conduct or activities of any nature without liability to us for a refund, payment or compensation whatsoever. By way of example, these would include situations where: (a) you are or become in such condition as to be unfit to travel or dangerous or obnoxious to other passengers or employees; (b) you are inadmissible under the immigration or other laws of any country included in the Cruise, Cruisetour or Land Trip itinerary or fail at any time to possess required travel documents; or © you fail to abide by the rules or orders of the Master or other ship’s officers. If transportation is denied after departure, you and your baggage may be landed or transported to any port or location that we select, without any resulting liability for refund, payment, compensation or credit on our part. If you are disembarked or any other actions are taken for any reason pursuant to this paragraph A.6, you will not be entitled to any refunds or damages.

7. Baggage: (a) We will carry as baggage only your personal effects consisting of wearing apparel, toilet articles and similar items for your wearing, comfort or convenience during the Cruise, Cruisetour and Land Trips and not belonging to or intended for use by any other person or for sale. Radioactive materials, inflammable or hazardous items, controlled substances (other than lawfully obtained prescription drugs), firearms and illicit materials are strictly prohibited. For loading and unloading the Ship and other means of transportation, all baggage must be tendered for carriage in securely constructed and locked suitcases or trunks. All baggage must be able to be both safely stowed in your stateroom on the Ship and, for Cruisetours and Land Trips, fit in the baggage compartment of any means of transportation. The only animals permitted to accompany you are qualified service animals for passengers with disabilities; you are responsible for complying with governmental health and other requirements as to service animals.

(b) We are not liable for: (1) any loss, damage or delay before baggage comes into our actual custody at the commencement of your Cruise, Cruisetour or Land Trip or after baggage leaves our actual custody at the conclusion of your Cruise, Cruisetour or Land Trip; (2) any loss, damage or delay while baggage is not in our custody which includes any period during which baggage is in the custody of airlines (including airlines booked as part of a Air Package); or (3) damage due to wear, tear or normal usage. For security and legal reasons, baggage is subject to search, and illegal or potentially unsafe property is subject to seizure, both before and during the Cruise, Cruisetour and/or Land Trip.

© We do not assume any liability for any loss of or damage to or delay of perishable items, medicine, liquor, cash, credit or debit cards, jewelry, gold, silver or similar valuables, including but not limited to those specified in Title 46 of the United States Code section 30503, securities, financial instruments, records or other valuable or business documents, computers, cellular telephones, cameras, hearing aids, dental hardware, eyewear, electric wheelchairs, scooters, or other video or electronic equipment, binoculars, film, videotape, computer disks, audio disks, tapes or CDs. These items should not be left lying about the Ship or your stateroom, nor should they be left unattended on other vessels, railcars or other vehicles or in hotels, or placed in luggage other than a bag that you carry with you. In addition, we do not assume any liability for any loss of or damage to carry-on baggage left unattended on the Ship or on other means of transportation or in hotels. The Ship and certain hotels may be equipped with stateroom or room safes or safe-deposit boxes in the Ship's or hotel's Front Office; using these facilities will not, however, increase our liability as provided in this contract.

(d) The fare has been established on the basis of our assumption that the total value of your property that you are taking with you on the Cruise, Cruisetour and Land Trip (exclusive of the items mentioned in Clause 7© above) will not exceed $100 (U.S.) per guest or $200 (U.S.) per stateroom regardless of the number of occupants or bags, or (i) $600 (U.S.) for HAL if you purchased the Standard Cancellation Protection Plan or (ii) $3,000 (U.S.) for Seabourn if you purchased SeabournShield. Accordingly, if we, due to any cause whatsoever, are liable for loss or damage to, or delay of, your property, the amount of our aggregate liability will not exceed $100/$200/$600/$3,000 (as is applicable) unless you have specified to us the true value of your property and paid before commencement of the Cruise, Cruisetour or Land Trip, at the Ship's Front Office or directly to us, 1% of the value in excess of $100/$600 for HAL and 5% of the value in excess of $100/$200 for Seabourn. In that event, our aggregate liability will be limited to the amount so specified. Whether or not a value in excess of $100/$200/$600/$3,000 has been specified, the limit on liability will be proportionately reduced in any case where less than all of your property is lost, damaged or delayed. Without increasing the above limits: (1) our aggregate liability will never exceed, and all settlements will be made on the basis of, original cost less depreciation; (2) damaged items will be settled on the basis of repair costs; and (3) lost, damaged or delayed baggage must be reported to a Provider representative within 48 hours after discovery and written claim to us must be made within 30 days after conclusion of the Cruise or Cruisetour as provided in Clause A.3 above.

8. Passenger Liability in Certain Cases: You will be required to indemnify and reimburse us for all expenses we incur as a result of any misrepresentation made by you, as a result of the need to provide you with medical services, as a result of your detention by immigration, health or port authorities, or as a result of any personal injury or damage caused by your acts or omissions or the acts or omissions of any passenger under age 21 traveling with you. We will have a lien for such expenses on your property that you have taken with you on your Cruise, Cruisetour or Land Trip. If, due to weather or other unforeseen reasons, flights are adversely impacted or you are otherwise required to spend an additional night in a location, hotel and meal costs are your responsibility.

9. Travel Agents: Any travel agent you use in connection with your Cruise, Cruisetour or Land Trip acts solely for you and is deemed your agent. We are not responsible for the financial condition or integrity of any such travel agent. In the event that an agent fails to remit to us any monies paid by you to the agent, you remain liable for the fare due us, regardless of whether we demand payment before or after Initial Departure. Any refund made by us to an agent on your behalf is considered, for purposes of this contract, as being the same as payment to you whether or not the monies are delivered by the agent to you. Receipt of any documents or information by your travel agent, including but not limited to this contract, shall be deemed to constitute receipt by you.

10. Passenger Condition: There are risks inherent to being aboard the Ship and other means of transportation. These include, by way of example, having to evacuate the Ship or other means of transportation in case of emergency, having to move about on the Ship or other vessels during rough seas and lack of access to full medical services. For people who are ill or who have a mental or physical disability or impairment, these risks are more significant. For example: access to all parts of the Ship, other means of transportation or to facilities on shore may be difficult or impossible for some passengers. In addition, medical evacuations during the Cruise, whether at sea, by tender, or by deviating from the scheduled itinerary, may create an increased risk of harm and may not be feasible for a variety of reasons. We reserve the right to determine, in our sole discretion exercised in good faith, whether and when a medical evacuation from the ship will occur. For these reasons, we request that if you have any special medical, physical or other requirements, these be brought to our attention immediately upon receipt of this contract. In limited situations where you would be unable to satisfy certain specified safety and other criteria, even when provided with appropriate auxiliary aids and services, we reserve the right to refuse permission to participate in all or part of the Cruise, Cruisetour and/or Land Trips. You are liable to us for any costs incurred for emergency medical care including medical care provided ashore, as well as transportation and/or lodging in connection therewith.

11. Compliance with Laws/Minors: Immigration, health and other laws, both in the United States and other countries, may require that you obtain a certain visa, hold a passport, be inoculated, obtain parental consent or otherwise obtain documentation prior to entering or returning to a country. It is your sole responsibility to take all steps as may be required to enable you to comply with these laws. The United States Department of State, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and other governmental and tourist organizations regularly issue advisories and warnings to travelers. Provider strongly recommends that you obtain and consider such information when making travel decisions. Provider assumes no responsibility for gathering or providing said information to you. All persons under 18 years of age must be accompanied and supervised by a parent or guardian. Persons under 21 years of age are not permitted to consume alcoholic beverages; parents and guardians are obligated to insure compliance with this requirement.

12. Personal Information; Authority to Use and Sell Pictures, Video Images and Audio Recordings: Personal information we collect from you may be used by us or our affiliates for marketing purposes; it will not, however, be sold to unaffiliated third parties. In addition, some governmental and quasi-governmental agencies require or request that we provide them with your personal information. You authorize us to use and/or provide to others your personal information as described above and acknowledge that we do not assume any liability to you for our doing so. We periodically photograph or otherwise film people participating in Cruises, Cruisetours and/or Land Trips for retail, marketing, promotional, publicity and training purposes. Without any requirement that we compensate you or obtain any additional approvals from you, you authorize us to include photographic, video recordings and other visual portrayals of you, as well as voice recordings included with any videos, in photographs, videos, DVDs or other media that we sell at retail or that we use for marketing, promotional, publicity and/or training activities in all media now known or hereafter devised without any limitations whatsoever. You expressly agree not to use any photograph, video recordings and other visual or audio portrayals of you and/or any other guest in combination with crew or the Ship, or depicting the Ship, its design or equipment or any part thereof whatsoever for any commercial purpose or in any media broadcast or for any other non-private use, without the express written consent of Provider.

13. Transferability; Separability: This contract cannot be transferred by you. Any additions, deletions or other alterations to, or waivers of any term of, this contract which are purported to have been made by us and which have not been agreed to in writing by the President of Provider will not be legally binding upon us. Any provision of this contract which is prohibited or unenforceable in any jurisdiction will, as to such jurisdiction, be ineffective to the extent of such prohibition or unenforceability and the validity and enforceability of the remaining terms and conditions of this contract will not otherwise be affected, nor will the validity and enforceability of such provision be affected in any other jurisdiction.

B. THE CRUISE OR CRUISETOUR

1. Additions to Fare, Government Fees & Taxes and Surcharges: (a) The fare that you paid was determined far in advance of Initial Departure on the basis of then-existing projections of fuel and other costs. In the event of an increase in fuel or other costs above amounts projected, we have the right to increase the fare at any time up to Initial Departure and to require payment of the additional fare prior to Initial Departure. We have the right to refuse to transport you unless the additional fare is paid. Within seven (7) days after you are notified of the additional fare (but no later than Initial Departure), you may elect to surrender this contract to us for cancellation, whereupon you will receive the Refund Amount. Cancellation fees do not apply to this type of refund.

(b) In addition to your Cruise or Cruisetour fare, you will also be charged an amount for “Government Fees & Taxes.” That term, as used by us, may include any and all fees, charges, tolls and taxes imposed by U.S. and/or foreign governmental or quasi-governmental authorities, including but not limited to U.S. Customs fees, port fees, head taxes, Panama Canal tolls, dockage fees, wharfage fees, inspection fees, pilotage, air taxes, hotel or VAT taxes incurred as part of a land tour, immigration and naturalization fees, and Internal Revenue Service fees, whether assessed on a per passenger, per berth, per ton or per vessel basis. In the case of per ton or per vessel assessments, those assessments will be spread over the passenger capacity of the Ship. Government Fees & Taxes are subject to change and we reserve the right to collect any increases in effect at the time of sailing even if the fare has already been paid in full. Similarly, we reserve the right to impose or pass through fuel surcharges, security surcharges or similar incidental surcharges. No right of cancellation exists under either of these circumstances.

2. Hostilities: Although unlikely, the Ship may be confronted by actual or threatened war, warlike operations or hostilities. In addition to our right to deal with this situation under our general right to respond to safety concerns, we may also decide that it would be prudent for the Ship to sail with or without lights, omit observance of practices, rules and regulations as to navigation, cargo or others applicable in time of peace, or sail armed or unarmed and with or without convoy.

3. Brochure/Website/Cancellation Policy: If not already received, you can obtain the applicable brochure for the Cruise or Cruisetour from your travel agent or us. You can also obtain the most current information on Provider’s website. For HAL Cruises, you should familiarize yourself with the brochure as well as with the Before You Go page of HAL’s website (www.hollandamerica.com/cruise-vacation-planning/PlanningAndAdvice.action). For Seabourn Cruises, you should familiarize yourself with the Exclusive Travel Planner and the Frequently Asked Questions page on Seabourn’s website (www.seabourn.com/luxury-cruise-vacation-planning/Planning-And-Advice.action?tabName=Frequently+Asked+Questions). Please be advised, however, that if the brochure, booklet or website is inconsistent with this contract, this contract will be controlling. Note in particular our cancellation policy which specifies cancellation fees that you will be subject to if this contract is surrendered for cancellation within certain time periods prior to Initial Departure. Since a cancellation likely means a lost opportunity to sell space on other Cruises or Cruisetours, these fees apply regardless of whether your space is resold. You hereby agree that losses sustained by us in the event of your cancellation would be very difficult or impossible to quantify, and that the fees set forth in our cancellations policy represent a fair and reasonable assessment as liquidated damages.

C. AIR PACKAGE

1. Arrangements by Provider: If you are participating in our Air Package, we will arrange for air transportation from the home cities listed in our brochure to the departure point of your Cruise or Cruisetour and return air transportation from the termination point of your Cruise or Cruisetour to the home city from which you departed. Due to the special fares and capacity controls we have with airlines, we retain the right to select carriers and determine routings. Some routings may involve travel to an airport other than in the city where the Ship embarks or disembarks. In those cases, motorcoach transportation to and/or from the Ship will be provided. Flight schedules and/or availability may require overnight hotel accommodations either to join and/or to return from your Cruise or Cruisetour. Please refer to Provider’s website or the applicable brochure regarding our policies on booking hotels and responsibility for the costs of hotels and associated services.

2. Schedule Changes/Air Delays: We reserve the right to change or alter air flights as required by airline schedule changes. If tickets have already been issued, we will adjust your itinerary or air carrier, accordingly. In that event, we may ask you to return your tickets to your travel agent. Should you choose to alter your airline schedule in any way once your tickets have been issued, airline charges which result will be your responsibility. If our assistance is requested in changing airline arrangements within 60 days of departure, an additional administrative charge will be levied in addition to any charges imposed by airlines. If you are traveling on a HAL Ship and your flights are delayed, please ask the airline to immediately advise HAL’s Air/Sea Department, or call us yourself at 1-800-628-4771 or 1-206-286-3294. If you are traveling on a Seabourn Ship, and flights are delayed, please ask the airline to immediately advise Seabourn’s Air/Sea Department, or call us yourself at 1-866-530-2195 or 1-206-626-9185.

3. Refunds/Seat Assignments/Special Services/Fares/Lost Tickets/Baggage Charges: The maximum refund to you for unused flight coupons will not exceed the air add-on or cruise only credit amount paid to us. We cannot make or confirm seat assignments, special meals or other special services. Your travel agent may assist with these arrangements. Please note that because of changing airline tariffs, your actual air ticket may reflect fares higher or lower than the air add-on or cruise only credit amounts shown in the applicable brochure. If so, the difference is neither chargeable nor refundable to you. If, however, airline fuel or other surcharges or additional governmental taxes or levies are imposed, we reserve the right to pass these through to you. Please keep your airline tickets in a safe place. Should they be lost, you will be responsible for their replacement. Each airline has its own baggage allowance policy. You are responsible for any excess baggage charges imposed by airlines.

4. Liability and Relationship With Airlines: We will use our best efforts to arrange for your air transportation. If, however, due to any cause beyond our control, we are unable to arrange for air transportation (including, for example, because of capacity controls placed upon us by airlines due to the types of fares under which we book) or the air transportation we arrange is unavailable or otherwise fails to materialize, our sole liability will be limited to refunding the air add-on paid or cruise only credit. Our relationship with airlines is that of an independent travel agent. We assume no liability for any acts or omissions of any airline including, without limitation, those involving cancellation of flights, schedule changes, re-routings, damage to or delay or loss of baggage, flight delays, equipment failures, accidents, pilot or other staff shortages, overbooking or computer errors. Accordingly, you will not have any right to claim or recover against us as a consequence of any act or omission of any airline. The liabilities and obligations of an airline to you, and your rights against an airline, are subject to any and all terms and conditions of the airline's ticket and tariffs and any and all governmental laws and regulations bearing upon or otherwise relating to such rights, liabilities and obligations.

9/21/12

[boulders]

The website's cruise contract follows. You will find nothing about the emergency drill.

 

It's in section 10 which I quoted a few pages ago.

[sail7seas]

Joanie,

 

I admit I do not understand a fine line distinction between 'against doctors' orders' and 'against doctors' advice'? :confused: No doctor can ORDER anyone to do anything if they are of sound mind and capable of making informed choice. They cannot make you stay home from a vacation but their Advice is what we all pay for and with what most of us comply.

 

A doctor 'orders' medications, procedures, treatments, care plans etc but they cannot order you to comply with it...... under usual circumstances.

 

Could you explain how I have that wrong? :confused:

Thanks.

The most important thing at this point is for you to mend well and feel better.

Wishing you (and everyone here) good health and happiness in the New Year.

 

[kazu]

Just going to post to this thread this one last time!!

 

FOR THE RECORD;

 

NO WHERE in my original post, nor since then, have I stated that I went on these cruises against Doctors Orders!!!!

 

I stated that I went: QUOTE "against my doctors advice" UNQUOTE

 

I did not state which of my doctors said this, nor is it anyone's business, but for the record it was my Dermatologist who advised me because she was afraid I might run out of my Anti Itch Cream (Betamethasone Dipropionate and my Atarax (Which I did not run out of.)

 

My Orthopedist and Primary Care Physician both thought this was an excellent chance for me to get away from it all and that JUST POSSIBLY the warmer climate and higher humidity might just help my acute dermatitis problem(s)!! And they were right!!!

 

So, instead of sitting in judgement as to someone's ability or capability of cruising, ask before you jump to conclusions.

 

I will not post another review of any ship since a few of CC's members have decided to sit in judgement and I do not feel like being ripped to shreds again.

 

My thanks to those few of you who understood what I said and did not read into the review what you wanted to, but what I actually wrote:)

 

All I ask this one time is that you think before you post......I know I will!!

 

Joanie

 

While this thread has been an eye opener for many of us - I find it sad that Joanie will now not post any further reviews. This is saddening to say the least. I feel that the communication was the biggest issue. But that is JMO of course. Sitting in judgement of another's capabilities or actions does not behoove us I think unless we have walked a mile in their shoes.

 

If Joanie had been given different information then she probably wouldn't have had the issue. Just my thoughts.

 

Thanks for the review Joanie:)

[sail7seas]

I agree, Kazu, that I would be sorry for Joanie to cease writing reviews. I always enjoy reading them.

 

[Jade13]

deleted

[Jade13]

When I originally tore my menicus in 2008 I got a wake up call as to how difficult it was for handicaped people to get around. Because it's healed to a certain degree it doesn't keep me from doing a lot but it was a huge pain and one I haven't forgotten about. quote]

 

Sorry to go OT, but I tore my menicus this year and I can recommend finding a good surgeon. I have now been cleared for all sports and am running again (when I had trouble walking). The surgey took less than an hour.