Woman Attacked/Raped On Nieuw Amsterdam

[serendipity1499]

After reading the news accounts I'm appalled that some posters would actually blame the passenger! :mad:

 

My thoughts & prayers go out to her & hope that she gets the medical as well as the emotional help she will need to recover from this abhorrent & petrifying assault..

 

I t makes one wonder if some of those passengers who have mysteriously disappeared and then deemed desperate souls were actually victims of a crime....beating /raping or in anyway accosting a passenger male or female within the confines of a ship (no where to flee) would certainly put a crew member or fellow passenger for that matter, in a great deal of jeopardy,perhaps silencing their victim permanently by using an ocean as an accomplice isn't so far fetched.

 

 

You people need to stop blaming the victim!

 

First of all nudists are not nude to be sexual. There are very strict rules about sex acts on a nude cruise. Go to their website and look it up for yourselves. They simply enjoy relaxing without clothing. They are of all shapes and sizes and ages. And even if this woman had invited this man into her room, and then decided she didn't want to have sex, he should have left.. but she didn't, she didn't do anything at all wrong. She was headed to bed when she was brutally attacked by a madman. A man who stalked her all day, a man who entered her cabin and waited for her. A man filled with so much violence and rage that he thought about hurting her all day long! I doubt she even said "Son of a Bitch", but even if she had.. that is no reason to rape a woman.

 

THERE IS NO REASON EVER TO RAPE A WOMAN!!! STOP BLAMING HER FOR HIS ACTS!!!

 

Completely agree with both of you especially after reading that since Jan of 2010 & Sept 30 of 2013 there were 156 sexual assaults reported on cruise lines who visit U.S. ports..

 

According to this article the FBI has only closed 64 of their investigations.. 39 assaults by Psgrs, 22 by Crew, & 2 Others..

 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/broward/fl-holland-america-cruise-rape-overboard-20140218,0,4021783.story?page=2

 

 

Betty[/font][/size]

[Arwen]

Twenty one cruises aboard HAL, including many with our children who virtually mark their childhood by cruises and remember to this day the names of their favorite cabin steward - and one bad apple spoils the whole lot.

 

I do question whether crew these days are as satisfied with their lot on board as they were ... in particular, are they working under greater pressures than before? As more and more ships hire more and more crew, is the labor pool shrinking, leaving no option but to hire staff who once might have been passed over? Are there any systems on board to monitor the crews' moral and mental state? Being away from home, working unmentionable hours, could cause even the mildest mannered to snap.

 

I still love HAL, but I have found the crew less welcoming than a decade or more ago. Perhaps times have changed. I hope the passenger recovers, physically and mentally, and that justice is fair. Perhaps we should all be careful what we do and say to others.

 

 

First, there is absolutely no excuse except massive flaw in character and a desire to commit a heinous sin on the part of this room service steward. That poor woman will suffer with PTSD and as others have said, wish for her speedy recovery and the best mental health service available to her.

 

That being said, we just returned from the Eurodam (will submit review soon). HAL has so many positives, but they did indeed cut staff on this back to back Caribbean cruise.

 

Our room steward one day looked ill or exhausted. Throughout, he seemed to appear very tired. After 17 cruises I could easily spot that the staff, with the exception of bar staff, and private restaurants, did not seem in good spirits.

 

The shortage of staff was evident in the Lido, and even in the fact that our room steward was not seen much for the first week (though he serviced our room).

 

Upset and tired staff, and/or angry passengers is a bad mix. In particular there are unstable pax (seen and heard them) as well as unstable staff that lurk. Again, this woman was the victim of a HAL staff member. But we also must be aware, too, that even among fellow pax, there can be an unstable one.

 

I encountered one passenger on this past trip who gave me the awful creeps with his body language and behavior. Not sure what his issues were. (Ft. Lauderdale, airboat excursion and one morning in the Main Dining Room).

 

Again, no blame whatsoever on this poor victim.

[cruzsnooze]

The lady may have said son of a bit** because she couldn't find her robe or slippers or who knows what, it wasn't necessarily aimed at this room service person. What a lawsuit this will be, and not a frivolous one. I cannot imagine what this lady went through, my hopes for a complete recover are sent her way.

Edited February 19, 2014 by cruzsnooze

[JimAOk1945]

.I forget which but I am sure at least one of the ships has door bells outside Suite cabins and it sounds on the verandah. I wish all the ships had a door bell. :)

 

 

Royal Caribbean has door bells outside the full suite cabins. It's a nice feature that we have appreciated.

[hawkeyetlse]

Earlier, she called him a "son of a b!tch" and he took it literally...as an insult against his mother.

Well he certainly restored his mother's honor, didn't he? Bet she's holding her head up high and proud today. :(

[BeagleOne]

Aquahound, I know what you do for a living and enjoy your posts.

 

Like almost everyone here, I can only go by what has been reported in the media and have only seen HIS claim that her use of "son of a bitch" was directed at him, rather than being a general expletive that she used when she was frustrated by something else. Have I missed an account that confirms the words were actually directed at him?

 

Not that anything she said would ever come remotely close to justifying what he did.

Edited February 19, 2014 by BeagleOne

[homeschoolmama]

For those saying hal has no responsibility, that is flat out legally wrong. There may not have been an awareness of this person's predisposition to these awful acts, but liability does not end there. As a lawyer if I were defending this woman I would go after the negligence of hal with regard to their key distribution system, never should anyone but mgr level or above have master keys. Security should be monitoring when and why master keys are used. To give them to room service or even room stewards is in fact negligent as it raises the level of predictability that something like this happens. If a crew member can hop from balcony to balcony on the outside of a ship, then again anyone could do the same, and that becomes potential negligence by hal not designing something to prevent this. eg another few inches of protruding steel as a barrier between the balconies.

A ship's primary responsibilty is passenger safety, NOT giving us a fun cruise -no different than flight attendants are responsible for safety, not serving drinks.

Ships make cost cuts, staff cuts, short cuts and that increases the risk of these events, ie negligence!

Now can every circumstance be foreseen or prevented? of course not. But negligence looks at more likely than not. If it is even 1% more likely it could occur it is negligence. Maybe the one positive thing that will come out of this is cruiselines will look at this issue and revisit all aspects of ship security

 

Sent from my SCH-I915 using Forums mobile app

[COLLEYBERRY]

A cruise ship is in fact merely a small town afloat...perhaps different only that the majority are in vacation mode and the remainder just trying to earn a living.

However I am sure ,as the hard working security staff could attest, they face the same issues of a small town police force.....drunken behavior,spousal abuse,theft,physical and verbal abuse....and in this horrific case rape and attempted murder.

A criminal intent on a crime will find a way. Reducing their opportunity and thereby decreasing our vulnerabilty is perhaps the best defence...but in some cases evil. ,as I believe was the case here,is just too great.

 

 

 

[sapper1]

We're taking our 11-year old daughter on the Westerdam next month. This will be the first cruise where we will allow her to check herself in and out. She's a cruise veteran by now, and will have little problem navigating her way around the ship. We also don't want her to be restricted by having a friend in Club HAL be able to leave while she has to wait for us. At some point, you have to start to let loose. That's particularly hard for parents of an only-child.

 

Please just consider this. A girl your daughter's age could be walking along a hallway and a door could open and she could be snatched into a cabin so fast it would make your head spin. While her age would dictate that she could be trusted to make her way alone around the ship, I would not be comfortable with it just yet. You know and trust your daughter but how well do you know and trust the other 2000+ passengers on the ship?

That's just the first thing that occurred to me when I read your post and for your daughter's sake I thought I would pass it on. :)

[sail7seas]

Except that he has admitted beating, raping and attempting to murder the woman, so I think "alleged" isn't really applicable, here. ;-)

 

It does apply to what he says the woman said, but I don't really think that has any relevance. If she had let out a string of curse words, directed at him, in front of 200 witnesses, I would still say that it wouldn't matter. The remedy for that insult is not what that man did.

 

That's what he CLAIMS triggered it, anyway. There's no evidence that her (alleged) use of the term had anything to do with him. Maybe she banged her shin on something going to answer the door. Maybe she couldn't find her bathrobe or coverup. Maybe she tripped over something.

 

 

Yes, I know he has admitted to the crimes.

Our legal system, however, demands he be assumed innocent until proven guilty or pleads so in a court of law. So far as I know, he has not yet been to trial. It may be splitting hairs and I certainly get your point but that is the system of law under which we live. He is 'alleged' to have committed some of the most horrible of crimes.

 

He'll have a lawyer appointed for him if he cannot afford one and will be tried according to law.

 

[sail7seas]

Aquahound.......

 

Thanks for sharing with us what you do.

This case has to be particularly abhorrent to you,,,, as it is to all of us.

 

* I know I read a post you made stating what you do and when I went to quote it here, I couldn't find it.

Was it removed?

 

Edited February 19, 2014 by sail7seas

[Lady Chew]

CLUB HAL sign-out policy found with a google search. Note that it is standard policy beginning at age 8.

 

 

***Sign in/out policy for Tweens 8‐12 years of age***

Tweens are free to sign themselves in/out of Club HAL. They must note their time of

departure and their next location. If parents/guardians do not feel comfortable allowing

their child to sign themselves in and out of Club HAL' date=' they can decline authorization.[/quote']

 

8 & 9 years olds are considered Tweens? that's ... horrible ...

[sail7seas]

For those saying hal has no responsibility, that is flat out legally wrong. There may not have been an awareness of this person's predisposition to these awful acts, but liability does not end there. As a lawyer if I were defending this woman I would go after the negligence of hal with regard to their key distribution system, never should anyone but mgr level or above have master keys. Security should be monitoring when and why master keys are used. To give them to room service or even room stewards is in fact negligent as it raises the level of predictability that something like this happens. If a crew member can hop from balcony to balcony on the outside of a ship, then again anyone could do the same, and that becomes potential negligence by hal not designing something to prevent this. eg another few inches of protruding steel as a barrier between the balconies.

A ship's primary responsibilty is passenger safety, NOT giving us a fun cruise -no different than flight attendants are responsible for safety, not serving drinks.

Ships make cost cuts, staff cuts, short cuts and that increases the risk of these events, ie negligence!

Now can every circumstance be foreseen or prevented? of course not. But negligence looks at more likely than not. If it is even 1% more likely it could occur it is negligence. Maybe the one positive thing that will come out of this is cruiselines will look at this issue and revisit all aspects of ship security

 

Sent from my SCH-I915 using Forums mobile app

 

 

 

My bold above.......

 

 

:confused: WHy would anyone be defending this woman? She is the victim of crime. She doesn't need defending in court.

 

[Aquahound]

Aquahound.......

 

Thanks for sharing with us what you do.

This case has to be particularly abhorrent to you,,,, as it is to all of us.

 

Thank you. Yes, this is about the worst assault case, sex or otherwise, I have been privy to related to the cruise industry. I'm shocked by it.

[boulders]

For those saying hal has no responsibility, that is flat out legally wrong. There may not have been an awareness of this person's predisposition to these awful acts, but liability does not end there. As a lawyer if I were defending this woman I would go after the negligence of hal with regard to their key distribution system, never should anyone but mgr level or above have master keys. Security should be monitoring when and why master keys are used. To give them to room service or even room stewards is in fact negligent as it raises the level of predictability that something like this happens. If a crew member can hop from balcony to balcony on the outside of a ship, then again anyone could do the same, and that becomes potential negligence by hal not designing something to prevent this. eg another few inches of protruding steel as a barrier between the balconies.

A ship's primary responsibilty is passenger safety, NOT giving us a fun cruise -no different than flight attendants are responsible for safety, not serving drinks.

Ships make cost cuts, staff cuts, short cuts and that increases the risk of these events, ie negligence!

Now can every circumstance be foreseen or prevented? of course not. But negligence looks at more likely than not. If it is even 1% more likely it could occur it is negligence. Maybe the one positive thing that will come out of this is cruiselines will look at this issue and revisit all aspects of ship security

 

Sent from my SCH-I915 using Forums mobile app

 

We sailed on the Nieuw Amsterdam, where this crime took place, a year and a half ago. My 3 children and I were in one stateroom. One morning, as usual, I ordered room service. DS7 and I ate while dd13 and ds16 slept, as usual. This was a port intensive cruise, so most mornings we were off the ship. This morning, after ds7 finished breakfast, I took him up to Club Hal around 8:30 am, as soon as it opened. I wasn't gone more than 10 minutes. When I returned, I discovered that room service had entered the room and removed the unfinished breakfast. Both dd13 and ds16 were sleeping in their bunks. I questioned them as to whether anyone had knocked, and they said no. I called guest services and complained and told them that this was a big liability for them, to have room service enter a room uninvited as well as to enter and stay in the room when they see that there is a passenger or passengers sleeping. I was especially appalled because they could have done anything to dd13 (or ds16) as they slept. Guest services brushed off my concerns and sent the room service guy back with chocolate covered strawberries to half-heartedly apologize. It's apparent that allowing room service personnel to enter passengers cabins without being invited in, has been policy on the Nieuw Amsterdam for some time. I like HAL, so I am saddened for them that this happened, but as I predicted and told them on my cruise, this policy is going to come back to bite them.

[boulders]

CLUB HAL sign-out policy found with a google search. Note that it is standard policy beginning at age 8.

 

 

***Sign in/out policy for Tweens 8‐12 years of age***

Tweens are free to sign themselves in/out of Club HAL. They must note their time of

departure and their next location. If parents/guardians do not feel comfortable allowing

their child to sign themselves in and out of Club HAL' date=' they can decline authorization.[/quote']

 

 

We just sailed HAL with ds8 last month. The default policy is NOT to allow children in the 8-12 age group to sign themselves out. Parents must specifically authorize it.

 

8 & 9 years olds are considered Tweens? that's ... horrible ...

 

What is horrible about it??? DS8 enjoyed Club HAL very much on his cruise last month.

[BeagleOne]

Yes, I know he has admitted to the crimes.

Our legal system, however, demands he be assumed innocent until proven guilty or pleads so in a court of law. So far as I know, he has not yet been to trial. It may be splitting hairs and I certainly get your point but that is the system of law under which we live. He is 'alleged' to have committed some of the most horrible of crimes.

 

He'll have a lawyer appointed for him if he cannot afford one and will be tried according to law.

 

 

I'm not quite sure why you quoted me, since my use of "alleged" referred to what the crew member claims the victim said to him when he knocked on the door, and NOT to whether he did what he has confessed to have done. I'm familiar with the American legal system and I certainly understand the presumption of innocence and the requirement for an attorney.

[peaches from georgia]

8 & 9 years olds are considered Tweens? that's ... horrible ...

I have 7 grandchildren, one of which is an 8 year old girl. Is she mature and responsible- yes, very. Would she be capable of finding her way alone around the ship and go where she said she was going- yes, definitely. Would she be physically capable of fending off some nutcase pax who opened his cabin door and grabbed her or some wacko crew member who entered the cabin when she was alone at a time no one else was around- NO, which is why she would not be allowed at the age of 8 or 9 to leave Club HAL on her own without an adult or her older brothers with her.

 

We are not overly cautious and enjoy our lives and vacations without fixating on safety and security. We take chances everyday without thinking of all that could happen, like most of us do. But at 8 I wouldn't let a child wander alone around the city where she lives and a cruise ship of strangers isn't much different. It's not that I don't trust her or her maturity, just that she wouldn't be able to do a thing about it if she ran into the wrong person.

[LMaxwell]

I'm not quite sure why you quoted me, since my use of "alleged" referred to what the crew member claims the victim said to him when he knocked on the door, and NOT to whether he did what he has confessed to have done. I'm familiar with the American legal system and I certainly understand the presumption of innocence and the requirement for an attorney.

 

A presumption of innocence disappears when the perpetrator confesses to the crime. After that it is just the discovery of all relevant facts in order to determine the right charges with which to ensure conviction. Sorry, I can not allow in my thoughts that there is any presumption of innocence surrounding this animal.

[Cindy]

As I have stated before, Hal has no business contracting 'nude' cruises, trouble is coming anytime you have this with crews from other countries and religions, sorry...

 

I think your statement is reprehensible -- as if the type of cruise somehow makes the crime less heinous or attributes responsibility for what happened to the victim.:(

[COLLEYBERRY]

Under which legal system will he be tried ? I understand this took place while in international waters..under which country do Hal ships/company sail. ? Will he be sent back to his own country for justice.

Edited February 19, 2014 by COLLEYBERRY

[Copper10-8]

Under which legal system will he be tried ? I understand this took place while in international waters..under which country do Hal ships/company sail. ? Will he be sent back to his own country for justice.

 

The legal system of the United States. His court appearance yesterday was in Federal Court in Ft. Lauderdale, Fl

[peaches from georgia]

My bold above.......

 

 

:confused: WHy would anyone be defending this woman? She is the victim of crime. She doesn't need defending in court.

 

It sounds to me like poster didn't mean 'defending', but meant representing this woman as the plaintiff in a negligence suit against HAL.

[Aquahound]

Under which legal system will he be tried ? I understand this took place while in international waters..under which country do Hal ships/company sail. ? Will he be sent back to his own country for justice.

 

The FBI has lead on all crime that occurs on cruise ships operating out of the United States, or involving U.S. Citizens on cruise ships elsewhere. This is understood and agreed upon by the flag states of the cruise ships, the cruise industry itself, and the governmnet of the U.S. This was a crime on the high seas, for which the U.S. does have jurisdiction and the victim is a citizen. The venue is the Southern District of Florida and he will be tried right here.

[wallyboag]

That was our waiter on the NA back in December. I am in such shock right now. Thinking about being on a cruise ship in the middle of the ocean with really no law enforcement or way of protecting yourself. A crew member who had access to our cabin, knew us by name, and obviously had homicidal tendancies... Imagine if my family or I had said the wrong thing to him! He seemed like a great guy. Very friendly. Always smiling. Very weird feeling right now.