Trouble in Europe -- Credit Card with no chip?

[donaldsc]

You will be mostly OK. It is just that somethings are a bit easier with a pin and chip card. Also, many self serve places such as gas stations or Oyster Card refills in London require them.

 

One of the nice things about credit card usage in European restaurants is that they bring the machine to you instead of taking your card to a back room where they scan your card and can also write down your card number. Reduces fraud.

 

DON

Edited July 2, 2014 by donaldsc

[puppycanducruise]

You will be mostly OK. It is just that somethings are a bit easier with a pin and chip card. Also, many self serve places such as gas stations or Oyster Card refills in London require them.

 

One of the nice things about credit card usage in European restaurants is that they bring the machine to you instead of taking your card to a back room where they scan your card and can also write down your card number. Reduces fraud.

 

DON

 

This happens at many restaurants in Canada too.

[Randyk47]

You will be mostly OK. It is just that somethings are a bit easier with a pin and chip card. Also, many self serve places such as gas stations or Oyster Card refills in London require them.

 

One of the nice things about credit card usage in European restaurants is that they bring the machine to you instead of taking your card to a back room where they scan your card and can also write down your card number. Reduces fraud.

 

DON

 

I agree, you should have no or very, very few issues. Just spent 3 1/2 weeks in mostly Greece and Italy and easily used our non-chipped cards in hotels, restaurants, and shops. We didn't try any kiosks like train or bus stations so not having a pin and chip card was not a problem. Not one merchant looked askew at our cards. We did use our "world travel" cards to avoid exchange rate fees.

[SFO Peter]

A member of our household recently got his chip credit card compromised by either

1. The reputable Coffee House illegally scanning his card or

2. Someone scanned his Credit card using Radio Frequency.

 

This was to the tune of around $800 in two days while the card never left our possession except for the coffee purchase. The thieves were professionals (not caught yet?) but fortunately the CC company alerted us to unusual transactions and subsequently absorbed the fraud.

 

So, right away we called the Banks and insisted they replaced all of our Credit Cards with chips minus the Radio Frequency which shows as Radio Waves on your card such as ))). I believe without the Radio Frequency thieves or anyone cannot scan your Credit Card information using Radio Frequency.

 

All of our credit cards are now Chip and Signature (waiting for pin one day) without Radio Frequency. However, our Banks does not seem to have this protection feature with Debit Cards.

 

SFO Peter

Edited July 2, 2014 by SFO PETER
typo

[Lizzie68]

This happens at many restaurants in Canada too.

 

I would venture to say, just about everywhere, now. Even at the local Legion.:)

[Surreyman]

Not sure where you get your information from but I can assure you that we are well covered if there is fraudulent activity on our credit cards (also with our debit cards). Monies taken are refunded very quickly.

 

Quite so, unless there is evidence that you we're careless with your PIN.

[Hlitner]

I must admit to being somewhat puzzled by any security advantage to a Chip/Signature card vs a magnetic strip. When we used our Andrews Card throughout France and Germany, in most places it defaulted to Chip/Signature. So the machine spits out a receipt which I sign, just like with a magnetic strip. Since the Europeans are so used to dealing with Pins, we did not have a single time when anyone even looked at our signature. In fact, the way the machines work it asks you to remove your card prior to it printing out the receipt. So the card is usually back in my wallet/pocket before I even sign the slip. If a Chip/Signature card is stolen anyone can use it until the owner reports it lost. If a Chip/Pin card is stolen it is worthless unless the thief has the PIN...which is unlikely.

 

We have discussed this with an Andrews employee who explained that they default to a signature because the transaction cost (to the credit union) is cheaper with a signature transaction then with a Pin transaction (the card is capable of both). He acknowledged that the security with a signature is not as good as with a Pin, but pointed out that we would no be liable for any unauthorized transaction. One wonders how long it will take for the USA credit card companies to start taking security seriously.

 

I should also mention that yesterday we got a call from our TA (a large cruise agency) with whom we have had a long relationship. A final payment was due and the TA needed my credit card info to process the payment. I mentioned that the TA had my card info on file and he said that after the Target fiasco his agency decided to delete all their credit card records from their in-house system. It is nice to know that somebody is paying attention to all the credit card fraud.

 

Hank

[Christine Frances]

I get very nervous in Canada or the US when I have to swipe my card for some reason or other and can't use the PIN. Pretty well the only reason the stripe is still there is for US tourists to be able to use their card while in Canada. Almost all the fraudulent activity comes from picking up the info from the stripe.

 

Did the household member actually use the Chip & Pin feature or did he swipe it? In the US now you are getting Chip & Pin cards do you also have the proper readers in which you insert the card and then PIN or are most places swiping C&P cards?

 

Sorry for all the questions - heading to Washington State in a couple of weeks:D

[Christine Frances]

Also looks like we won't be accepting swipe cards after 2015

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2014/02/06/october-2015-the-end-of-the-swipe-and-sign-credit-card/

 

http://www.bluepay.com/processing-services/merchant-types/canadian-merchants/canadian-chip-pin

 

http://www.bmo.com/chip/questions.html#faq2

Edited July 2, 2014 by Christine Frances

[Cruise Junky]

Ah - let's not tout Canada's system without analyzing the significant downsides of monopolies. Check out some of the 30 year fixed rate mortgages at some of Canada's "superior" banks. More than double what we pay in the U.S. A 30 year mortgage at the RBC is 9%!?!?! WHAT??? That's three TIMES my 30-year rate. Also, APRs on credit cards, etc. Ya'll up there pay much more (on average) than we do down here. While I like the idea of PIN credit cards - let's not for one moment think Canada's banking system is cheaper. Also, small branches increase competition which can lower prices.

 

Nobody with a brain would lock themselves into a 30 year interest rate at 9%. Most people renew every 3-5 years in Canada and frankly I'm surprised RBC was even offering a 30 year rate. I just renewed for 5 years at less than 3.2%

 

Canada's banking system is one if the strongest in the world. I wouldn't throw stones

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SFO Peter]

I get very nervous in Canada or the US when I have to swipe my card for some reason or other and can't use the PIN. Pretty well the only reason the stripe is still there is for US tourists to be able to use their card while in Canada. Almost all the fraudulent activity comes from picking up the info from the stripe.

Did the household member actually use the Chip & Pin feature or did he swipe it? In the US now you are getting Chip & Pin cards do you also have the proper readers in which you insert the card and then PIN or are most places swiping C&P cards?

Sorry for all the questions - heading to Washington State in a couple of weeks:D[/endQUOTE]

===========

 

If you are addressing my post - no the household member said he handed the clerk the credit card. He also has seeing issues. Mind you this is a very BIG and reputable Seattle Coffee Shop Franchise. So either the clerk was crooked or some customer in the shop full of computer users or elsewhere scanned his card using Radio Frequency. The latter would be my guess. I used to think it couldn't happen here...

 

SFO Peter

[serendipity1499]

The Chase Saphire preferred card has no annual fee. If you do get one, have your bank "consolidate" your Saphire and freedom cards into the Saphire card. That way you get the benefit of your long years of loyalty.

 

It has no foreign transaction fees and I'm in England right now using it daily. It is a chip and signature card but works fine ALMOST everywhere. Even though we have a PIN attached to it, a signature is still required so it will not work if it is a completely automatic transaction.

 

I'm going to speak to my bank about it when we return. If enough of us travelers complain, they may change it.

 

Thank you to you & all those who answered my question.. I'll call Chase & inquire about consolidating my Freedom card into a Saphire card with no annual fee..

 

A member of our household recently got his chip credit card compromised by either

1. The reputable Coffee House illegally scanning his card or

2. Someone scanned his Credit card using Radio Frequency.

 

This was to the tune of around $800 in two days while the card never left our possession except for the coffee purchase. The thieves were professionals (not caught yet?) but fortunately the CC company alerted us to unusual transactions and subsequently absorbed the fraud.

 

So, right away we called the Banks and insisted they replaced all of our Credit Cards with chips minus the Radio Frequency which shows as Radio Waves on your card such as ))). I believe without the Radio Frequency thieves or anyone cannot scan your Credit Card information using Radio Frequency.

 

All of our credit cards are now Chip and Signature (waiting for pin one day) without Radio Frequency. However, our Banks does not seem to have this protection feature with Debit Cards.

 

SFO Peter

 

Peter, no need to give up your radio Frequency cards.. You can go on-line to Amazon & get the protective shields for any credit card..They can't be read by scanners as they have protective shields in them so the RFID can't be read.. You can also get them for your passports.. I keep my drivers license in one of them..

 

They are worth the money.. I purchased 25 of the "Identy stronghold secure sleeve" for less than $20. for both DH & me.. Scroll down the WEB site..& Purchase what you need..

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=credit%20card%20shields&sprefix=credit+card+shields%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Acredit%20card%20shields

[Christine Frances]

Nobody with a brain would lock themselves into a 30 year interest rate at 9%. Most people renew every 3-5 years in Canada and frankly I'm surprised RBC was even offering a 30 year rate. I just renewed for 5 years at less than 3.2%

 

Canada's banking system is one if the strongest in the world. I wouldn't throw stones

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

OOps sorry Cruise Junky I meant to quote the post you were quoting lol

 

The longest term RBC is offering here in Canada is 7 yrs:confused: Are you talking about amortization? Our banks made it through the last 5 yrs in fine shape, thank you

 

Check this out! http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/10/09/us-financial-soundest-banks-idUSTRE4981X220081009

Edited July 2, 2014 by Christine Frances

[SFO Peter]

Peter, no need to give up your radio Frequency cards.. You can go on-line to Amazon & get the protective shields for any credit card..They can't be read by scanners as they have protective shields in them so the RFID can't be read.. You can also get them for your passports.. I keep my drivers license in one of them..

They are worth the money.. I purchased 25 of the "Identy stronghold secure sleeve" for less than $20. for both DH & me.. Scroll down the WEB site..& Purchase what you need..[/endQUOTE]

======

 

Many thanks for your tips but I am not sure why I would need RFID credit card. Is it just so I can check out faster at Target etc? Does my not having RFID cards make life simpler and give more fraud protection?

 

SFO Peter

[navybankerteacher]

I must admit to being somewhat puzzled by any security advantage to a Chip/Signature card vs a magnetic strip. When we used our Andrews Card throughout France and Germany, in most places it defaulted to Chip/Signature. So the machine spits out a receipt which I sign, just like with a magnetic strip. Since the Europeans are so used to dealing with Pins, we did not have a single time when anyone even looked at our signature.

 

 

Hank

 

 

The chip in Europe may or may not add an element of security - it is simply essential in many cases. When you are at a self service gas pump or railway station or metro ticket machine, signing a receipt is not an option. If your card has no chip, you get no gas or no ticket. If you are at a restaurant with a staff (including manager) which is either lazy or uninformed, a card with a chip is the only card they will accept - happened to us twice last fall in suburban London: I had to leave my wife hostage while I scouted out ATM's.

[Christine Frances]

I wouldn't worry too much about the RFID as the scanner has to be held very close to your card to read it (1-4 inches) and the Chip creates a new authentication code for each transaction so even if they scanned it they could only use the captured info once. I would bet either the swipe reader was compromised or the employed double swiped the card into a phony reader.

 

We actually use the Pay Wave feature on our cards a lot. We just tap the chip on the reader and the charges go through instantly. There is a max of $50 totally guaranteed by the bank. No pin necessary lol

 

You can actually ask the security dept of you CC company (with whom you are probably dealing with now) if the $800 in charges were done by an actual physical credit card (swiped) or an online purchase eg. If it was a card, they would get the info from the swipe reader which also records the pin and they would make up a dummy card to use it. This happened to us as our card was compromised in a Florida car rental company and 2 weeks after we got home there was a bunch of charges in South Dakota:eek: And it was by a physical card and we still had the original.

 

http://www.identityguard.com/identity-theft-resources/credit-fraud-and-credit-monitoring/are-these-new-rfid-credit-cards-safe/

Edited July 2, 2014 by Christine Frances

[serendipity1499]

Responsibility for fraud is set by the terms rather than the technology. Credit card issuers in Europe have used the chip technology as an excuse to shift the burden to the consumer.

 

igraf

 

You have it wrong.. From the Wall Street Journal Business section both Master Card & Visa Mgmt were interviewed.. As of Oct 2015 all CC cards will be either chip & pin or chip & signature.. You will stop swiping the cards but instead insert it into a machine which reads your card..

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2014/02/06/october-2015-the-end-of-the-swipe-and-sign-credit-card/

 

Master Card's expert Carolyn Balfany explained it this way:

 

It's called the Liability Shift

 

Quote The “liability shift” is a big moment in the changeover. Can you explain what it means?

 

Part of the October 2015 deadline in our roadmap is what’s known as the ‘liability shift.’ Whenever card fraud happens, we need to determine who is liable for the costs. When the liability shift happens, what will change is that if there is an incidence of card fraud, whichever party has the lesser technology will bear the liability.

 

So if a merchant is still using the old system, they can still run a transaction with a swipe and a signature. But they will be liable for any fraudulent transactions if the customer has a chip card. And the same goes the other way – if the merchant has a new terminal, but the bank hasn’t issued a chip and PIN card to the customer, the bank would be liable.

Unquote

 

According to them the Consumer is NOT liable..Suggest you read the entire article, It's interesting..

Edited July 2, 2014 by serendipity1499

[SFO Peter]

I wouldn't worry too much about the RFID as the scanner has to be held very close to your card to read it (1-4 inches) and the Chip creates a new authentication code for each transaction so even if they scanned it they could only use the captured info once. I would bet either the swipe reader was compromised or the employed double swiped the card into a phony reader.

 

We actually use the Pay Wave feature on our cards a lot. We just tap the chip on the reader and the charges go through instantly. There is a max of $50 totally guaranteed by the bank. No pin necessary lol

You can actually ask the security dept of you CC company (with whom you are probably dealing with now) if the $800 in charges were done by an actual physical credit card (swiped) or an online purchase eg. If it was a card, they would get the info from the swipe reader which also records the pin and they would make up a dummy card to use it. This happened to us as our card was compromised in a Florida car rental company and 2 weeks after we got home there was a bunch of charges in South Dakota:eek: And it was by a physical card and we still had the original.

http://www.identityguard.com/identity-theft-resources/credit-fraud-and-credit-monitoring/are-these-new-rfid-credit-cards-safe/[/endQUOTE]

=========

 

Yes the CC company said the charges were done using an actual (duplicated fraudulent) card. And it was a Chip and Signature card with Radio Frequency. No pin. Pin is still rarity here and signature in my mind is a joke on the electronic machines. As I said we don't really know how they got the card information... We did email the Coffee Shop HQ in Seattle and got a nice response saying they would contact the Manager to check on their transaction security. It boggles my mind to think they have the ability to perpetrate this crime in just a few hours...

 

SFO Peter

[Typhoon1]

The sooner we all see the chip technology, the better.

[Stratheden]

The sooner we all see the chip technology, the better.

 

We have used 'chip and pin' for about 5 years now. No signatures will be accepted here after 1st August. The security is so much better. I had to sign in US and Canada last year and not once was my signature checked :rolleyes:

[RJ2002]

Thank you to you & all those who answered my question.. I'll call Chase & inquire about consolidating my Freedom card into a Saphire card with no annual fee..

 

Please report back after your inquiry. I am not so sure the Sapphire card is "no fee" after the first year.

[Lizzie68]

We have used 'chip and pin' for about 5 years now. No signatures will be accepted here after 1st August. The security is so much better. I had to sign in US and Canada last year and not once was my signature checked :rolleyes:

 

I am really surprised you had to sign in Canada - possibly an older establishment - because we have had chip and pin for as long, if not longer, than Australia. Oh, backing up a bit - I recall going to Old Navy a while ago, and had to sign there. Maybe some of the US based stores are taking longer doing the switch.

[navybankerteacher]

We have used 'chip and pin' for about 5 years now. No signatures will be accepted here after 1st August. The security is so much better. I had to sign in US and Canada last year and not once was my signature checked :rolleyes:

 

Of course, restaurant waiters, shop clerks, etc. are hardly expert in handwriting analysis/recognition - "checking" a signature is usually little more than confirming that pen was put to paper - and has nothing to do with actual verification of identity.

[Christine Frances]

Before we went Chip & Pin I used to write in the signature line "please verify ID" and it worked as the clerk actually asked to see some other form of ID:D

[corkpopr]

atm cards with 5 digit pins no problem throughout Europe as recently as two months ago. I work in Canada and comute monthly and still use my U.S. swipe type cards as well