Do you think they could do it?

[Krazy Kruizers]

chengpk75

Enjoyed your posts here. Lots of informative information.

[Aquahound]

Does Princess have the "Marine Evacuation Systems" (large, multiple liferafts equipped with evacuation chutes) for passengers? If so, this is news to me, and I'd be interested in hearing which ships and how many. It was my understanding that while these systems had been approved for shipboard use, that they were not allowed for passenger use. I know that many ships use these over the old davit launched rafts for crew.

 

These are the life rafts on Regal Princess (sorry they're not more clear...they weren't the reason for the pictures). How does this set-up look to you? I see the compartments inward from the rafts, so I'm not sure what they house. I know on RCI and Celebrity, the compartments that house the chutes are right on the railings and have a roll-up door. This doesn't look the same to me.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2016 by Aquahound

[loubetti]

What specifically are you looking for info on? I'll say that it's a great school, and a great education, and a leadership factory, as many grads have gone on to lead Fortune 500 companies.

 

I had the pleasure of touring Kings Point back in the 90's, including their training ship at the time. All very impressive. I recall that their museum had a display of the desk and some more of the captain's office on the SS United States.

 

USMMA is perhaps the non-military nautical equivalent of the US Air Force Academy, and I would think up to par with the US Naval Academy as to it's general mission.

 

Pretty close description, Cheng? You seem to certainly have the knowledge and credentials to prove it!

[DanJ]

 

Does Princess have the "Marine Evacuation Systems" (large, multiple liferafts equipped with evacuation chutes) for passengers? If so, this is news to me, and I'd be interested in hearing which ships and how many. It was my understanding that while these systems had been approved for shipboard use, that they were not allowed for passenger use. I know that many ships use these over the old davit launched rafts for crew.

 

Not sure about Princess, but RCI has this on the Oasis class. Just on Oasis 2 weeks ago and they show pictures of the escape chute and mention some passengers may have to use this in an evacuation. Oasis life boats are rated at 370 passengers each, although I'm not sure what reality is, given, as you say, the average person is bigger than the averages used for calculations. I know I certainly am lol.

[chengkp75]

These are the life rafts on Regal Princess (sorry they're not more clear...they weren't the reason for the pictures). How does this set-up look to you? I see the compartments inward from the rafts, so I'm not sure what they house. I know on RCI and Celebrity, the compartments that house the chutes are right on the railings and have a roll-up door. This doesn't look the same to me.

 

 

Those look more like what I'm used to as crew MES's, where the multiple rafts have to be launched, and rafted together, and then the chute deployed. What you describe on RCI is where 4 square rafts are deployed together with the chute. In all systems, the raft at the bottom of the chute is used just for "staging", meaning you hit that raft at the bottom of the chute, and then are helped to fill the other rafts. As they are filled, they move off. The raft at the bottom of the chute is filled last. From what I've studied, the ones shown on Princess require more rigging and deployment by the crew than the RCI type.

[chengkp75]

I had the pleasure of touring Kings Point back in the 90's, including their training ship at the time. All very impressive. I recall that their museum had a display of the desk and some more of the captain's office on the SS United States.

 

USMMA is perhaps the non-military nautical equivalent of the US Air Force Academy, and I would think up to par with the US Naval Academy as to it's general mission.

 

Pretty close description, Cheng? You seem to certainly have the knowledge and credentials to prove it!

 

Those who know the Academy rank it on par with all the military academies. While the objectives and methods have changed for the military academies, their core mission hasn't. Kings Point's core mission of producing merchant marine officers has changed since I was there, due to the change in the maritime industry. The focus now is on producing leaders for the industry, since the number of seagoing billets has dropped and continues to drop.

 

One fact that differentiates KP from the other federal academies, and that somewhat changes your classification of the academy as a non-military school is the fact that of the 5 federal academies, only Kings Point is authorized a "battle standard". This is a flag awarded to military units where the ribbons denoting their major campaigns and battles are flown. Only Kings Point has ever sent undergraduates to war, starting with WWII, where 142 cadets lost their lives.

[whogo]

I am one of those who does not pay attention during muster drills. I hear and understand the instructions the first time, don't pay attention the second, third, fourth and fifth time. The muster instructions on Holland America are about four sentences in slowly spoken English. Go to your cabin, be ready to leave (in warm clothing and your life vest with medication in a real emergency), report to your muster station when told to.

 

A real emergency will be nothing like the muster drill. It may be like one of those days when the weather is so bad that the outside decks have been closed off. The ship won't be tied up at the dock, there may be smoke and fire, the ship may be rolling and pitching more than any of us have experienced, and the captain may have already left the ship,.

[Colo Cruiser]

Those look more like what I'm used to as crew MES's, where the multiple rafts have to be launched, and rafted together, and then the chute deployed. What you describe on RCI is where 4 square rafts are deployed together with the chute. In all systems, the raft at the bottom of the chute is used just for "staging", meaning you hit that raft at the bottom of the chute, and then are helped to fill the other rafts. As they are filled, they move off. The raft at the bottom of the chute is filled last. From what I've studied, the ones shown on Princess require more rigging and deployment by the crew than the RCI type.

 

 

 

The MES that I have seen is a white box aft of the lifeboats thats about 10' X 10'. I have seen the chute deployed down to the rafts/water in Ft Lauderdale during CG inspections.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Colo Cruiser

[cheeseclan]

Chengkp,

 

My son has one question for you:

 

In your class, how many people were commissioned as an officer in the Coast Guard or the Navy?

 

Thanks,

Debbie

[sail7seas]

deleted

sorry

Edited February 7, 2016 by sail7seas

[cbr663]

I hate to say it, but I have been to the muster drills, and watched many people struggle with simple instructions because of language difficulties, physical ailments or general disdain for the process. I was shocked at the number of people that struggled to actually put on their flotation device properly. I can only imagine what it would be like in an emergency.

 

Like a previous poster I have some background in managing a safety/security team in a crowded venue. My belief watching the crew and the passengers is that any attempt to actually abandon ship in a timely manner would be a disaster. I did not really worry about it that much because the likelihood of such a disaster is exceedingly small, but that belief only grew as I watched the drill.

 

I feel the same way. At every muster drill that I have attended I have always left feeling that we are hooped should a real emergency actually happen. Primarily, it is because I have never felt confident that the crew would actually be able to control the situation.

 

On our last cruise, a gentleman at our muster collapsed during the muster. Confusion reigned and from what I observed, the crew did not follow basic first aid techniques to help this gentleman. When I have doubts of the effective handling of a medical mishap while the ship is tied to a pier on a sunny day, you can bet that I have little confidence of an abandon ship order on the open sea.

[chengkp75]

Chengkp,

 

My son has one question for you:

 

In your class, how many people were commissioned as an officer in the Coast Guard or the Navy?

 

Thanks,

Debbie

 

When I was there, everyone was required to take a commission in one or the other of the services. I think that is still true, but the requirements for keeping the commission have changed. Most took Naval Reserve commissions. Out of a graduating class of 200 or so, maybe 12-20 took active commissions in either the Navy, Marines, USCG, a couple to the Air Force, one to the Army if I remember right, and one or two to NOAA's commissioned corps. At that time, there were a good number of midshipmen who did not get into the academy of their first choice, and Kings Point was down the list, so they received their Congressman's/Senator's appointment to Kings Point, as they were less sought after. They used this as an "end run" to get a commission in the branch of service they wanted.

[cheeseclan]

Thanks again for your information. He is thrilled to be checking the campus out again during the school year. We visited a couple of years ago during the summer and could not see much.

He is going to shadow a cadet at 2 classes, go to lunch etc.

 

DEbbie

[chengkp75]

I feel the same way. At every muster drill that I have attended I have always left feeling that we are hooped should a real emergency actually happen. Primarily, it is because I have never felt confident that the crew would actually be able to control the situation.

 

On our last cruise, a gentleman at our muster collapsed during the muster. Confusion reigned and from what I observed, the crew did not follow basic first aid techniques to help this gentleman. When I have doubts of the effective handling of a medical mishap while the ship is tied to a pier on a sunny day, you can bet that I have little confidence of an abandon ship order on the open sea.

 

Back to the OP's topic. One point that passengers don't seem to understand about the muster drill, is that it is training for the crew as well. When else do they get the opportunity to learn how to "herd cats" in large numbers? Only when there are a large number of "cats" to be herded. While you might not see it going on at your stations, the Safety Manager and other officers are looking at how the crew are handling the muster, and then there is a debrief afterwards to discuss problems, solutions, or good performance.

 

The drill is also supposed to (and I emphasize supposed to) show the passengers what to do in an emergency: get there, shut up, stay put. That is co-operating with the crew, and when the crew have a co-operative crowd, they can do their jobs better. There are always officers or senior staff at the muster stations (or one to a couple stations) who are trained in crowd control, and who will be looking for the people who can help, since the passengers outnumber the crew.

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but did any of the passengers help the person who collapsed? Probably not, or only one or two. Those passengers who are not trained in first aid, would not likely step forward. Just so with the crew. Not all crew are trained in first aid. Most are trained to call the Medical center and let the professionals deal with it.

 

Another thing to remember, if you've cruised once a year for 10 years, you've been to 10 muster drills. In that same 10 years, the crew have been to 260 drills (assuming even time on/off). Therefore, they know quite a lot about what is worth pushing for, what just gets the guests ticked off, and what can just be handled. While many Captains and Safety Managers are strict about passenger behavior at muster, many feel that there is no need to unduly tick off the guests at the beginning of the cruise, so they will allow a bit of leeway.

 

One thing to watch is the weekly crew drills. You will see a whole different attitude towards safety, firefighting and lifesaving when they don't feel they have to pamper the guests. If you're ever on a B2B where the USCG is doing a Port State inspection and the crew is drilling, you see even the next level of attention and professionalism.

 

Do flight attendants stop their briefings if they see someone not paying attention? No, but many have done incredible things when a real emergency happens.

[Keith1010]

We can only hope that all of the training that the crews go through will allow for a successful evacuation of a php if it was required.

 

Keith

[chengkp75]

Thanks again for your information. He is thrilled to be checking the campus out again during the school year. We visited a couple of years ago during the summer and could not see much.

He is going to shadow a cadet at 2 classes, go to lunch etc.

 

DEbbie

 

Oh, no. The food will definitely put him off! :D

 

And, just a reminder, the academics jams the full requirements of a bachelor's degree into 3 years, since one year is spent at sea.

Edited February 7, 2016 by chengkp75

[Athankfulheart]

I have never had a bad feeling about the crew's abilities at a muster. I have had a few experiences where there were people who took their time to shut up, but all but one or 2 drills they expected absolute silence before beginning. That sometimes makes for a long wait, but really drills down on whats important.

 

I go into it realizing that there WILL be people that need help, a calming word, or some type of guidance or hand holding in a real emergency. The crew won't be able to take care of all of these things, so people will have to help their neighbor. I am prepared to do this and will if needed, even if it is for someone who is clueless simply because they failed to pay attention. It is better for all of us if the ones who can assist, do so as needed. I feel like there are a lot of us out there and this is what causes me to not worry about this.

[cheeseclan]

CHengKP,

 

My son did tell me that it was an academic fast track in order to be at sea. I thought he said for 6 months but could be mistaken. He is really looking forward to this day on campus and with the cadets.

 

Debbie

[cruisequeen4ever]

I agree about language being an issue. On our last cruise, a family kept being called who didn't make it back on time. They finally realized the family didn't speak English and started calling them in their native language. This could have been a reason they didn't return in time, too. Also, I heard that the lifeboats were designed to hold 150 based on OLD stats of average weight. Now that Americans are weighing more, the capacity would not actually be 150, scary to think about! I also agree about the aging population being risky because many can't move as quickly, and some require assistance. The crew seems well-prepared, but tossing in these issues may have a negative impact on a sea evacuation.

[cheeseclan]

chengPk,

 

just got schooled by my son: it is a year and they are midshipmen not cadets. Sorry for the mistakes:)

[chengkp75]

chengPk,

 

just got schooled by my son: it is a year and they are midshipmen not cadets. Sorry for the mistakes:)

 

Terms are mostly interchangeable. Official terminology is cadet/midshipman. While at school they are midshipmen, while at sea cadets.

 

And, typically, it is 6 months each during sophomore and junior years (3rd class and 2nd class).

 

Make sure to visit the Mariner's Chapel, where the 142 cadets who died in WWII are commemorated, and there is a book with the names of all the merchant seamen who died in WWII, and a page is turned every day so everyone is noticed.

Edited February 8, 2016 by chengkp75

[cheeseclan]

We will visit for sure. My husbands father was in the war, my dad was in Vietnam and my husband was in the Air force. So we are military thru and thru!!!

 

Thanks for all your info.

 

Debbie

[Sea Dawg]

I just completed a great cruise on the Emerald Princess. Our muster station was in the theater and judging by the crowd of passengers assembled, Princess will need a magician to get us all in lifeboats within a thirty (30) minute evacuation. That's assuming there is no fire, serious hull rupture, stormy seas, or panicking crew. Even so, the muster crew stated, with Titanic-like confidence, a sinking of this top heavy cruise ship was "unlikely". This was followed by a fairly quick mutter that there were NOT enough lifeboats for all passengers. Some passengers would have to be evacuated by MES. Wha-a-at? I got online and looked up MES and learned it meant Marine Evacuation System. Basically this is a five-deck slide (actually more of a free-fall chute) into an inflated life raft. Passengers can see the MES on deck. They are in large canisters and remind me of depth charges. There are 3,092 lower passenger berths and 1,200 crew. There are eighteen (18) lifeboats with capacity of 150 persons.If (at that's a big if) all lifeboats were filled to capacity, then there would be room for 2,700 people. So, let's get the record straight: 1,592 persons are going down the chutes into life rafts. Before you attack me please read this from a cruise ship crew member worth considering:

 

"Hello, I am crew member on princess cruises ships lately on grand class, and guess what same system is used on board our ships! I did a simple mat in my 2nd contract 5 years ago if ship sink there absolutely no way that all of us survive ! Why, you may ask, well let me tell you! Like a crew member I first don't feel safe my self (in general I'm trying not to think of it but...) First, we do have a drill every week but for this 7 years with company I'm always been assigned to auxiliary party. What that means well in case of emergency, we are additional force which suppose to be assigned to help where needed. But in reality that means that every week when drill alarm sounds I need to go to my designated station and sit down for 1h chatting with colleagues waiting for captain to announce that drill is finished! And that all! For real! I am not joking! In this 7 years during the drill maybe only 10 times i needed to go out on deck preparing for evacuating ship! Now you tell me if that don't sound frustrating???? And that's just a beginning I also raise few times question about insufficient water supplies in those rubber "jump in- flouting things " (we do call them jump in and pray flouting things) and only answer i got is "well you need to try to bring us much water us possible with you!" What? Lets say ship is sinking everybody are panicking we are abandon ship trying to help to the passengers to get to their life boats and i need to think to carry with me galon or 2 of water? I seriously did not believe what I was told! And that was coming from the company sail safe officers, who are coming on board to prepare us for god forbid sityationes???? Other one suggested to bring a condom with us , why you are wandering well to put our mony in side not to get wet! Those were the answers believe or not! I could go on and on but I will stop there!

Other thing is bording like on the video unsafe and pardon me but stupid! I am NOT jumping in free fall from 5th floor building high in to rubber balloon! Once we had test jumping I refused just like many others! One more perfect thing was the fact that 3 but really 3 people jumped and tube broke! It was miserable! Those things have expiration date and I do believe that company is respecting that, but those thing are exposed to the sun all the time, in metal cylinders god knows are they still ok after 3 years of standing on the deck! Like I said in controlled environment they broke, can you imagine how that would look like with all the people panicking around! I can tell you many more story's of this kind, but then you will never step foot on the ship and I still need to get my salary ... so sorry! One more thing and I will be done!

I also ask few years ago one question which never got answer! That was if fire is in my emergency station where am I going? Nobody knew to tell me! Then on my one i asked high officer and answer was to your muster station ok but there is 400 of crew members then which need to fit in the muster station (small restaurant of 100 seats) in the same time when 900 passengers are arriving because my muster station is passenger muster station too!

Can you imagine panic of all of those people trying to enter and save them selves? Can you imagine then all of us trying to jump down the tube? Can you imagine 350 people breathing in rubber balloon? Can you imagine if one of those 2 rubber things start to sink? there is only 1 entrance to those things... can you imagine rough sea.... and to finish you tell me are we really safe?

 

PS. If you try to complain about this things you are very likely to get fired! They will give you some stupid reason and good bye! So questions are theire and no answers..."

[DocF]

Well, for what it is worth, I would head for the inflatable rafts. I'm convinced they are much superior to rigid lifeboats. Part of this I base on the last three Great Lakes sinking where the three survivors were all on rafts rather than the lifeboats. I also have seen the lifeboats from the Edmund Fitzgerald. Their state is such that no one would have survived in them.

 

Doc

[Astro Flyer]

Sea Dawg's post is disconcerting & even in perfect conditions there will most likely be many fatalities. With older passengers' health & mobility related issues that makes an emergency evacuation extremely difficult. It appears that training & maintenance needs to be improved to be better prepared. Unfortunately companies consider cost vs. benefit and prefer to pay survivors of victims in the unlikely situation of a tragedy. I knew an airline mechanic who worried that maintenance cutbacks are not as noticeable to passengers as are service cutbacks. Sadly such decisions are driven by financial issues & is not what I want to see.

 

Having sailed for a couple of years with 4,500 fellow crewmembers on an aircraft carrier there were few options for abandoning ship...no lifeboats that I recall & maybe a few rafts. Everyone was much younger than on a cruise ship & were trained on how to enter the water. However using tied bell bottom pants or shirt, hat or helmet was not a great way to survive. So for me being on a cruise ship I have much better odds of survival than on a naval ship.

 

Every time I step on an aircraft the odds of being killed are probably greater than on a cruise ship. I guess that I take a more fatalistic point of view when going anywhere. Each of us have our comfort levels about what is too risky & I'll continue to cruise and hope to survive any emergency at sea even though that may be unlikely.