Itinerary Change. Am I being reasonable?

[zqvol]

My original post was why many feel what NCL is doing is wrong. Any other business even if foreign would be governed by the law of any US state in which they advertised or took phone calls from.

 

Ships are different only because of US treaties and the circumstances of maritime law. It's really not about what the contract says when the type of misrepresentations are occurring as here. That's why many think it's " unfair". Almost any other business couldn't get away with this stuff. But NCL like all foreign based ships operating internationally can. So the lesson is insure insure insure.

 

You are wrong about it being illegal. It is perfectly legal, as it is included int he contract that you agree to when you book. OP is going to be out of luck.

[NLH Arizona]

My original post was why many feel what NCL is doing is wrong. Any other business even if foreign would be governed by the law of any US state in which they advertised or took phone calls from.

 

Ships are different only because of US treaties and the circumstances of maritime law. It's really not about what the contract says when the type of misrepresentations are occurring as here. That's why many think it's " unfair". Almost any other business couldn't get away with this stuff. But NCL like all foreign based ships operating internationally can. So the lesson is insure insure insure.

It has nothing to do with being illegal, it is in the contract that the OP agreed to. If a company in the states had an itinerary change clause in their contract and one agreed to it, it wouldn't be illegal for them either. Not only is the lesson to be insured, it is to read the contract and if you don't agree with it 100%, then don't do business with that company.

[Bocadude85]

While I sympathize with your plight, I don't think it's reasonable to dispute the charges with the credit card company, because you had to have agreed to terms including a change of itinerary due to an act of God (hurricane) the cruise has no control over. They had no choice, it's not their fault, and you accepted the stipulation. It's also not the cruise ships fault you don't like Jamaica. There is no way they were going to please everyone with their itinerary change. Like others have said, get insurance next time, and this time see if the Captain can marry you on the ship or there is some port (including embarkation port) that will work for you. Then you can make the Jamaica port day a "sea day" for you and stay on the ship.

 

It is the cruise ships fault for going to a country whose people openly discriminates against, punishes with jail time and in some cases murder people just because of their sexuality. It's a little more then just not liking Jamaica when it comes to the LGBT community. How would you feel about visiting a country that you know your are not welcome in? For those of you interested, I have attached a link to an article about Jamaica and its stance on homosexuality.

https://www.thecaribbeancurrent.com/homosexuality-in-jamaica-and-the-caribbean/

[Maya1234]

It has nothing to do with being illegal, it is in the contract that the OP agreed to. If a company in the states had an itinerary change clause in their contract and one agreed to it, it wouldn't be illegal for them either. Not only is the lesson to be insured, it is to read the contract and if you don't agree with it 100%, then don't do business with that company.

 

Under US state laws no matter what a contract says you can't affirmatively misrepresent something you know to be false ( like advertising an itinerary you have reason to know will not run). If you have the right to do something for "any reason" you still have a common law duty to use " good faith and fair dealing". Saying you will be doing something when YOU ALEADY KNOW you won't is a breach of that duty.

 

US law doesn't apply here. But the fact that it woukd be illegal under US law is why many feel it's " unfair"

 

It's hard to for some wrap their arms around just how differently a cruise ship operates than just about any other company that does businesses with US citizens. Maritime and related treaty law is a different sort of animal which few have reason to deal with outside of taking a cruise.

[NLH Arizona]

It's hard to for some wrap their arms around just how differently a cruise ship operates than just about any other company that does businesses with US citizens. Maritime and related treaty law is a different sort of animal which few have reason to deal with outside of taking a cruise.

Not hard to do, all one has to do is research and read the contract. Sorry, but if they don't read the contract, it is on them, not the cruise line.

[xriva]

It's hard to for some wrap their arms around just how differently a cruise ship operates than just about any other company that does businesses with US citizens. Maritime and related treaty law is a different sort of animal which few have reason to deal with outside of taking a cruise.

 

 

You should look at the Conditions of Carriage for an airline sometime. It’s not just cruise lines.

 

 

 

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[beerman2]

You should look at the Conditions of Carriage for an airline sometime. It’s not just cruise lines.

 

 

 

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Exactly they only promise to get you from point A to B, doesn't have to be same day!

[JVilleGal]

There is a Silver Lining in all of this somewhere! Congratulations on your upcoming wedding and have a fabulous cruise. I think the Spa should become one of your favorite places on the ship!

 

 

 

 

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[Maya1234]

Exactly they only promise to get you from point A to B, doesn't have to be same day!

 

Yes. But they can't tell you they are going to take you from point a to point b on Monday at 6 pm if they already know that flight is cancelled. That's fraud ladies and gents. Pure and simple.

 

Contracts are not the be all and end all of what parties to the contract can do. Certain common law principles trump the contract under US law.

 

As I've said, it's this that makes what NCL does feel wrong. Even if they can get away with it because they aren't bound by US Law.

[SeaShark]

Yes. But they can't tell you they are going to take you from point a to point b on Monday at 6 pm if they already know that flight is cancelled. That's fraud ladies and gents. Pure and simple.

 

Contracts are not the be all and end all of what parties to the contract can do. Certain common law principles trump the contract under US law.

 

As I've said, it's this that makes what NCL does feel wrong. Even if they can get away with it because they aren't bound by US Law.

 

I would recommend reading the Guest Ticket Contract. Especially the section that defines prevailing law. Then you can retract your incorrect statement.

[CPT Trips]

NCL didn’t do it deliberately. They can change any port without any reason. This also is a very unusual circumstance that most other cruise lines are dealing with because of the devastation of the islands.

 

NCL has done a great job considering the circumstances with communication and change of ports but of course will not make everyone happy. There will always be people out there just like yourself that they will never please even if they give you a free cruise.

 

 

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Would you be willing to share which of the affected cruises you are on, how your itinerary changed, and approximately when you received notification(s) from NCL? The praise about NCL's "great job" is so rarely heard from other booked pax.

[jrs2000]

Yes. But they can't tell you they are going to take you from point a to point b on Monday at 6 pm if they already know that flight is cancelled. That's fraud ladies and gents. Pure and simple.

 

Contracts are not the be all and end all of what parties to the contract can do. Certain common law principles trump the contract under US law.

 

As I've said, it's this that makes what NCL does feel wrong. Even if they can get away with it because they aren't bound by US Law.

 

Yes, certain common law principles can overwrite contracts but this typically has to do with human rights issues and issues too complicated to be properly and completely covered under statutory law. This itinerary change issue is not a common law issue.

[Maya1234]

I would recommend reading the Guest Ticket Contract. Especially the section that defines prevailing law. Then you can retract your incorrect statement.

 

You are right I should have repeated what I said in every other post here. NCL is not bound by US STATE Law. Unlike almost every other company foreign or domestic which does business or sells its services in the US. As I said in those other posts Maritime law ( and related treaties) is a very different animal.

 

Under US State law ( by which I mean the law of every us state ) keeping up in its ads or website an itinerary that NCL knows ( or should know) it won't run is fraud. Selling spa passes when they know a spa will be closed is fraud. No matter what a contract says. Not so much under US Maritime law.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Maya1234

[nyc12345]

To the OP, congrats on your upcoming wedding and sorry to hear about this change to Jamaica affecting your plans.

 

Is your request reasonable? Absolutely! Is NCL required to do anything? Probably not. Could they have tried to accommodate your request? I think so.

 

I think your options are limited. Either try to have a symbolic ceremony on the ship like others have suggested or try to get your local TV channel involved. Not sure about your local channels, but we have "7 on your side" here in NY and they often went above and beyond to help people with special situations like you.

 

At the end of the day, you should not let this ruin your forever after. Try to make lemonade out of lemons.

[Maya1234]

"Yes, certain common law principles can overwrite contracts but this typically has to do with human rights issues and issues too complicated to be properly and completely covered under statutory law. This itinerary change issue is not a common law issue."

 

 

The duty of good faith and fair dealing, estoppel, waiver and fraudulent inducement are all common law concepts that trump a contract. None have anything to do with human rights.

[beerman2]

Yes. But they can't tell you they are going to take you from point a to point b on Monday at 6 pm if they already know that flight is cancelled. That's fraud ladies and gents. Pure and simple.

 

Contracts are not the be all and end all of what parties to the contract can do. Certain common law principles trump the contract under US law.

 

As I've said, it's this that makes what NCL does feel wrong. Even if they can get away with it because they aren't bound by US Law.

The only guarantee in life is at some point everyone will die! Likewise the cruiselines only " guarantee" you can board and they will return you to port.

 

And possibly NOT the port you boarded. Weather can and WILL play a factor.

 

It's hurricane season and this has been an abnormal year.

Cruiselines are scrambling for ports. It's that simple!

[Paulras]

I think the OP should at the very least be able to cancel at only 50% penalty. It sounds like he was only notified of the itinerary change on or around October 2, the day the 60 day 75% penalty kicked in. But if you go to the Dec 2 Epic roll call, there were people talking about being notified around Sept 21st, almost 2 weeks earlier. That's an unreasonable delay in my opinion between when the decision was made and the OP got notified. I could see a day or two, but two weeks? I think NCL dropped the ball on this one.

 

Regardless of the contract, NCL publishes a customer's bill of rights that mentions that we have a right to timely notification of a change in itinerary due to mechanical issues or emergency. Sounds like this was a change due to an emergency at the port. And 2 weeks is not "timely" to me. NCL should honor their own bill of rights.

 

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[DMH15]

The only guarantee in life is at some point everyone will die! Likewise the cruiselines only " guarantee" you can board and they will return you to port.

 

 

 

And possibly NOT the port you boarded. Weather can and WILL play a factor.

 

 

 

It's hurricane season and this has been an abnormal year.

 

Cruiselines are scrambling for ports. It's that simple!

 

 

 

You are correct. We once cruised out of Long Beach on Carnival Paradise. What a surprise when we woke up in San Pedro. There was no notification. No note under the door. No email. No text. No phone call. No smoke signal. Etc.

 

Eventually we were told that the gangplank in LB had a mechanical issue. So, people who had early flights were frantic. Carnival started bussing people on this need.

 

Luckily, we called a friend in SP who lived 1/2 mile away and picked us up. We spent the day with her and arranged a car service back to

LB later that day.

 

But who imagined this. I know we hadn't.

 

 

 

 

 

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[kollegekreed]

American Express has no reason to assist you. You made a couple big mistakes, number one not getting insurance, and you’ll have to live with those. The only thing hung NCL owes you is a room on a ship. They don’t even have to dock at an island on your itinerary.

[mrbinns]

1). Famously there was an RCCL cruise from NY where half the wedding guests flew to Bermuda and the couple and other guests were on the ship. A storm threat to Bermuda forced the ship to do a Canada cruise. There was a big law suit. And a settlement.

 

2. I was on a Celebrity cruise going to Israel. 2 days before our cruise the Israel ports were cancelled out. No choice for the passengers.

 

3. Nowhere in the conversation was the phrase "my travel agents" used. We are an important resource. Too many people try to bypass the most important part of this chain. Remember CC is OWNED by a travel agency. I have personally been keeping track of the port changes.

At one point Carnival said they were leaving from San Juan four days before a cruise which I knew was bogus.

On the other hand the ports are trying to get reopened as quickly as possible and have projected dates that are subject to change. The cruise lines are trying to stay with their original itineraries when possible but progress has been spotty.

Is the pier in working condition? How is the infrastructure? If 3000 people get off are things ready to accommodate them?

Key West has reopened. Hotels and the pier in San Juan have reopened this week. I was in Antigua and damage was minimal. St Thomas will reopen this coming weekend and St Maarten mid November.

Cruise itineraries are going back to normal. But if your departure is still changed then you really have to deal with it.

4. Are you telling me that EVERY gay person has been unable to stay closeted for one day in Jamaica? Perhaps stay away from river rafting and do the zip line?

5. I am sure you could be married in Florida aboard the ship and enjoy the cruise.

6. Finally my usual philosophy. When life hand you lemons, make lemonade.

 

 

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[Something fun!]

If I were you, I would contact Ellen. You may even get a free car.

 

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Also noteworthy is how Jamaica allowed Hedonism resorts considering their views on sexual activity.

[epixx]

"Yes, certain common law principles can overwrite contracts but this typically has to do with human rights issues and issues too complicated to be properly and completely covered under statutory law. This itinerary change issue is not a common law issue."

 

 

The duty of good faith and fair dealing, estoppel, waiver and fraudulent inducement are all common law concepts that trump a contract. None have anything to do with human rights.

 

 

I find your posts extremely informative and enlightening. Thank you for taking time to explain the relevant issues.

[Maya1234]

I find your posts extremely informative and enlightening. Thank you for taking time to explain the relevant issues.

Here are the relevant issue.

 

1. The OP asked if he was being reasonable for being annoyed that he was sold an itinerary with a statement that was either misleading or untrue, was not informed that this itinerary would not go until after the cancellation penalty kicked in (even though NCL was informing other passengers before that there would be a change) and NCL was continuing to advertise this itinerary even though it had already decided that it would not run it.

 

2. My answer was that I understand why he was so annoyed because almost any other company seeking to do business with US customers could not do what NCL (or any cruise ship traveling in International waters can) which is to actively engage in fraud (which is saying something you know or should know is false and advertise something you know (or should know) you won't be providing, or taking delaying notice of something you know about to your advantage. (to be clear the problem is not that they switched the itinerary, they didn't have control over that) it's that they left up that itinerary on their website after they knew it was not going and waited to give notice until after the cancellation period had run, though they told other earlier) The law of every US State prohibits companies operating under those laws from doing this. It does NOT matter under that US state law if the contract they have issued says that they can change things for "any reason" (if they already KNOW that there is a change it's fraudulent inducement and/or violates a common law duty of good faith and fair dealing.) Contracts are not the be and end all to the relationship between the parties.

 

3. HOWEVER, cruise lines can and do operate not under US State law but under US Maritime law and related treaties which gives those cruise lines freedom to do what they couldn't do if they had to adhere to the US State law.

 

4. Thus it is especially important to get insurance when you are dealing with a cruise line. It's really your only protection.

[SeaShark]

3. HOWEVER, cruise lines can and do operate not under US State law but under US Maritime law and related treaties which gives those cruise lines freedom to do what they couldn't do if they had to adhere to the US State law.

 

 

Clarification, please . . .

 

What exactly do you mean by "US State law"? Could you define the legislative body that draws up and votes on what becomes "US State law"?

[Maya1234]

Clarification, please . . .

 

What exactly do you mean by "US State law"? Could you define the legislative body that draws up and votes on what becomes "US State law"?

 

By "US State Law" I mean the laws of each individual state. Every state has laws prohibiting fraud. The law of each individual state is set either by that state's legislature (voted on by state legislators) OR by law developed by that state's courts in a line of cases (known as "common law" judges develop this law as has been the practice dating back to the formation of the United States and which has its genesis is English Common Law...from our former rulers). In most states it's common law that prohibits fraud and a breach of the duty of good faith and fair dealing. Some states though do so by statute enacted by its legislature. The exact outlines of what is "fraud" varies, but no state would allow a company to continue to advertise something it already knows it can not sell, even if the reason it can't sell it was not its fault.

 

And once again, rather the law of US states being in play against cruise lines operating in international waters, its US maritime law and related treaties that govern these contracts). Most companies who want to operate in the US (sell to US customers) must do so under the laws of the US states where they advertise to their customers based in that state. Most of us are used to the protections provided by those law (even if we don't think about it much). Maritime law is its own special animal and as I've said a reason why each cruise customer should do everything to protect themselves with insurance

Edited October 9, 2017 by Maya1234