Terrorist Preparedness @ Sea

[dabear]

In it's current construct, muster drills are a colossal waste of time that likely provide no increased probability of safely evacuating the ship. I have no doubt an "active shooter drill" would be even more pointless.

 

 

A safety alarm will keep you off your balcony or other open areas of the ship.

[leisuretraveler223]

Much in the same way that hospitals mandate that all employees receive the flu vaccine every year, when there is no proof that this helps reduce new flu cases. It is done primarily to give the illusion to the general public that health facilities are safe.

 

ummmm...... okay. You just go ahead and believe that.

[AmazedByCruising]

Much in the same way that hospitals mandate that all employees receive the flu vaccine every year, when there is no proof that this helps reduce new flu cases. It is done primarily to give the illusion to the general public that health facilities are safe.

 

Can you give a source for that? I'm quite convinced that's simply not true.

 

On topic: piracy and terrorism are very distinct in nature. Pirates just want money, i.e. jewelry and cash or a randsom, and a high chance to escape. Today's terrorists want publicity, dead victims, and martyrship.

 

I don't think anti-piracy measures overlap very much with anti-terrorism measures.

[leisuretraveler223]

Can you give a source for that? I'm quite convinced that's simply not true.

 

Don't even bother. anti-vaxxers aren't interested in truth or evidence. They just want to constantly shove their misinformation at people.

[champagne123]

Much in the same way that hospitals mandate that all employees receive the flu vaccine every year, when there is no proof that this helps reduce new flu cases. It is done primarily to give the illusion to the general public that health facilities are safe.

What????

[sanger727]

I snipped the above quote for brevity. I agree, except that it would be fairly easy for someone with access to get weapons aboard. With all of the pallets of fresh fruit and supplies that get loaded at ports, it would not be difficult. Now of course this would require having likely multiple people on the inside working loading, etc.

 

 

 

As for passengers being screened, I really wonder how effective it is. I know TSA misses things all the time...

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/airplane-mode/disturbing-undercover-probe-found-tsa-screeners-missing-many-test-weapons-n819191

 

 

 

I'm not sure if that speaks more to the TSA being incompetent or poorly trained, or just the sheer difficulty in detecting everything.

 

 

 

Yes, If they have someone working on the inside then I agree that any manor of weaponry could make it onboard.

 

As far as the TSA failures, I’ve read this before but they never say exactly what the ‘test weapons’ are. I don’t see someone getting a gun with sufficient ammo and capacity onboard (through security) to create much of an active shooter situation.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[leisuretraveler223]

What????

 

Okay, here's where the nitwit brigade of antivaxxers gets this one from. Every year, the flu shot includes a disclaimer that reports the specific formulation has not been tested and cannot guarantee immunity against influenza. Why? Becuase the flu shot is manufactured starting in the spring before the particular flu season it targets. The formulation is agreed upon by an international group of epidemiologists and infectious disease specialists. But because it is manufactured and distributed before a particular flu season begins, it is in fact IMPOSSIBLE to test that particular formulation. It is also impossible to quantify the degree of protection it will provide.

 

But anti-vaxxers don't like the WHOLE truth. They just like the soundbites they can use to manipulate the public discourse.

[pa-annie]

 

On topic: piracy and terrorism are very distinct in nature. Pirates just want money, i.e. jewelry and cash or a randsom, and a high chance to escape. Today's terrorists want publicity, dead victims, and martyrship.

 

I don't think anti-piracy measures overlap very much with anti-terrorism measures.

 

I agree with ABC, two different situations entirely. There have been some very interesting responses/experiences, but I would like to get back on topic as I really would like to know what cruise lines do to mitigate the chances of a terror attack at sea?

 

I guess I should have couched my query specific to sailings from US ports in waters not considered to be troubled areas of the world.

Tx - BZ

Edited January 24, 2018 by pa-annie
addition

[sfaaa]

You are on your own. Just ask Caption Philips.

[chengkp75]

Don't get me started on Capt. Phillips, either the fantasy movie or the real guy.

 

As for terrorist protection at sea, it is about as good as anywhere else. If a terrorist wants to fly an airliner into a cruise ship, there's no way to stop them, just like we couldn't stop 9/11.

 

As for RPG's and "anti-ship missiles", an RPG would do very little harm to a large ship, but it could be used to kill folks on the bridge, but that would not necessarily mean the ship would be more able to be boarded. Anti-ship missiles, missiles capable of crippling a ship are in the 1000 lb plus range, so not something your terrorist is going to put on his shoulder, or even a small boat. Suicide boats like what happened to the USS Cole, still did not sink the ship, even though they put a 40 foot hole in the side. And the Cole is much smaller than your typical cruise ship.

 

I believe that with the ISPS code in effect in ports worldwide, and most importantly in US ports, since the US was the prime mover for the ISPS code after 9/11, that getting weapons onboard is extremely unlikely. The pallets of food and stores that some have mentioned are all screened by explosive detecting (and ammunition) dogs before being loaded.

 

Under the ISPS code, the ship's security plan is a restricted document, and not even most of the senior officers onboard know the entire document. The Captain is the only person who knows the full document, and all procedures, everyone else, including the Staff Captain only know their part. This is so that no one knows any special duress signals or procedures that the Captain can make use of would get into other hands. There are very few countries that limit arms on merchant ships, but whether or not a cruise line has arms onboard would never be discussed outside of corporate headquarters or senior ship management (as corporate falls under ISPS as well). Similarly, any anti-terrorist procedures by ship's personnel, shoreside cruise line personnel, or port security (who also fall under ISPS) would ever be revealed to the public.

 

I would add that in US ports, the USCG provides security via small, armed RHIB boats, and as the budget allows, they put "Sea Marshals" on the ship, being 5-6 armed Coasties (rifles and side arms), and you may see them transiting to the bridge, the Engine Control Room and the Steering Gear Room. Frequently, we would offer them a meal in the buffet, and it got some looks from the passengers to see guys with M-16's slung across their chest in the buffet line. These guys will get on or off about the same time as the harbor pilot.

[sfaaa]

Whether there is firearms onboard would likely not make a big difference. Terrorists mostly rely on surprised attack and ambush tactics to inflict their damages. By the time the crews run to the locked gun cabinet and load their weapons, it's likely too late and game over.

[Keys2Heaven]

Okay, here's where the nitwit brigade of antivaxxers gets this one from. Every year, the flu shot includes a disclaimer that reports the specific formulation has not been tested and cannot guarantee immunity against influenza. Why? Becuase the flu shot is manufactured starting in the spring before the particular flu season it targets. The formulation is agreed upon by an international group of epidemiologists and infectious disease specialists. But because it is manufactured and distributed before a particular flu season begins, it is in fact IMPOSSIBLE to test that particular formulation. It is also impossible to quantify the degree of protection it will provide.

 

But anti-vaxxers don't like the WHOLE truth. They just like the soundbites they can use to manipulate the public discourse.

 

Never said I was an antivaxxer, but mandatory flu vaccinations in a health facility is not done primarily as a function of public health but rather public image (and monetary reimbursement).

[pa-annie]

Don't get me started on Capt. Phillips, either the fantasy movie or the real guy.

 

As for terrorist protection at sea, it is about as good as anywhere else. If a terrorist wants to fly an airliner into a cruise ship, there's no way to stop them, just like we couldn't stop 9/11.

 

As for RPG's and "anti-ship missiles", an RPG would do very little harm to a large ship, but it could be used to kill folks on the bridge, but that would not necessarily mean the ship would be more able to be boarded. Anti-ship missiles, missiles capable of crippling a ship are in the 1000 lb plus range, so not something your terrorist is going to put on his shoulder, or even a small boat. Suicide boats like what happened to the USS Cole, still did not sink the ship, even though they put a 40 foot hole in the side. And the Cole is much smaller than your typical cruise ship.

 

I believe that with the ISPS code in effect in ports worldwide, and most importantly in US ports, since the US was the prime mover for the ISPS code after 9/11, that getting weapons onboard is extremely unlikely. The pallets of food and stores that some have mentioned are all screened by explosive detecting (and ammunition) dogs before being loaded.

 

Under the ISPS code, the ship's security plan is a restricted document, and not even most of the senior officers onboard know the entire document. The Captain is the only person who knows the full document, and all procedures, everyone else, including the Staff Captain only know their part. This is so that no one knows any special duress signals or procedures that the Captain can make use of would get into other hands. There are very few countries that limit arms on merchant ships, but whether or not a cruise line has arms onboard would never be discussed outside of corporate headquarters or senior ship management (as corporate falls under ISPS as well). Similarly, any anti-terrorist procedures by ship's personnel, shoreside cruise line personnel, or port security (who also fall under ISPS) would ever be revealed to the public.

 

I would add that in US ports, the USCG provides security via small, armed RHIB boats, and as the budget allows, they put "Sea Marshals" on the ship, being 5-6 armed Coasties (rifles and side arms), and you may see them transiting to the bridge, the Engine Control Room and the Steering Gear Room. Frequently, we would offer them a meal in the buffet, and it got some looks from the passengers to see guys with M-16's slung across their chest in the buffet line. These guys will get on or off about the same time as the harbor pilot.

 

Thank you very much ...

 

BZ

[AmazedByCruising]

Never said I was an antivaxxer, but mandatory flu vaccinations in a health facility is not done primarily as a function of public health but rather public image (and monetary reimbursement).

 

Maybe you should take this to a different thread because it's spoiling this very interesting one. I invite you to open one, for instance here https://boards.cruisecritic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=209, in which case I will come up with some reliable sources which you apparently don't have. In the meantime I can assure you that you are talking BS about proven ways to prevent a possible life threatening disease.

[Keys2Heaven]

Can you give a source for that? I'm quite convinced that's simply not true.

 

On topic: piracy and terrorism are very distinct in nature. Pirates just want money, i.e. jewelry and cash or a randsom, and a high chance to escape. Today's terrorists want publicity, dead victims, and martyrship.

 

I don't think anti-piracy measures overlap very much with anti-terrorism measures.

 

Not that I have to, but a simple Google search provides results:

 

https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/27/flu-vaccine-health-care-workers/

 

I responded to a poster who said that mandatory muster drills provide no increased probability of safely evacuating a ship. I don't care what vaccines anyone wants to take. My point was that mandatory flu vaccines for health care workers doesn't do squat. Like the muster drill, it's designed to give everyone a warm fuzzy.

[chengkp75]

I will disagree with you regarding the muster drill. It gives the passengers an idea of where to go in an emergency (which is its primary function), and it gives the crew the ability to drill with actual, snotty, disinterested, and entitled passengers, so they can gain experience in the real world dealing with the difficulties of passengers.

[AmazedByCruising]

There are very few countries that limit arms on merchant ships, but whether or not a cruise line has arms onboard would never be discussed outside of corporate headquarters or senior ship management (as corporate falls under ISPS as well).

 

Just a few days ago Dutch parliament (finally) voted in favor of allowing armed private protection on merchant ships. If I'm correct, no HAL ship should have weapons on board now as they fly the Dutch flag. Then again, the same article says that it is "well known" that ships hire private, armed, protectors already. I think all cruiseships have at least some guns on board, but as you said we won't know the details.

 

In order to prevent terrorism, guns are probable less important than checking out pax and crew very carefully. Especially crew from predominant Islamic countries like Indonesia. There, I said it.

[chengkp75]

Holland has been somewhat unique in the past as far as allowing arms on merchant ships. Dutch ships were allowed to call on the Dutch military for armed parties in certain high risk areas.

[AmazedByCruising]

Holland has been somewhat unique in the past as far as allowing arms on merchant ships. Dutch ships were allowed to call on the Dutch military for armed parties in certain high risk areas.

 

Yes, but for instance Nigeria didn't like our military in their waters. After a lobby that has taken more than 10 years it seems that it is finally being resolved.

[Fouremco]

Never said I was an antivaxxer, but mandatory flu vaccinations in a health facility is not done primarily as a function of public health but rather public image (and monetary reimbursement).

I beg to differ. Hospitals do not want to lose staff who are incapacitated by the flu and take all reasonable steps to prevent it. Hospitals fully understand the benefits of operating with a full, healthy staff and make their decisions accordingly. As the majority of people would view mandatory vaccinations in hospitals as a very basic preventative step, there's no particular gain in public image from doing so.

[chengkp75]

Yes, but for instance Nigeria didn't like our military in their waters. After a lobby that has taken more than 10 years it seems that it is finally being resolved.

 

Not aware of the specifics between Nigeria and Holland, but even with a flag state's permission to arm a merchant vessel, the port state has the right to demand that the arms be secured while in the port state's waters. Look at the case of the "security consultants" arrested in India a couple years ago.

[Silkroad]

I agree with ABC, two different situations entirely. There have been some very interesting responses/experiences, but I would like to get back on topic as I really would like to know what cruise lines do to mitigate the chances of a terror attack at sea?

 

I guess I should have couched my query specific to sailings from US ports in waters not considered to be troubled areas of the world.

Tx - BZ

 

I would NOT like to know what cruise lines do to mitigate the risk of a terror attack at sea (or in port). The effectiveness of such measures partially depends on terrorists NOT knowing exactly what they might face in terms of defense of the ship and passengers.

[Despegue]

This past May, when we were on Koningsdam in the Med, we did have a mock "terrorist attack" while we were docked at the port near Brussels. We were informed by the Captain the day prior that this exercise would be taking place and that although both the "terrorists" and the "soldiers" would be armed, there was no ammunition being brought onboard. We we told not to be concerned if they were spotted in hallways or around the ship. Talk about excitement! Helicopters hovering over the ship. Bad guys trying to get onboard! Soldiers in full gear storming the decks! It was like being on a movie set. After the exercise was over, good guys and bad guys all lined up for a photo-op! A lot of them ended up in the Lido buffet having a cup of tea! Trust me, it was taken very seriously at the time of the action onboard.

 

This was an exercise by the Belgian Special Forces, either police or military. And yes, they know VERY well what they are doing.

[Despegue]

Okay, here's where the nitwit brigade of antivaxxers gets this one from. Every year, the flu shot includes a disclaimer that reports the specific formulation has not been tested and cannot guarantee immunity against influenza. Why? Becuase the flu shot is manufactured starting in the spring before the particular flu season it targets. The formulation is agreed upon by an international group of epidemiologists and infectious disease specialists. But because it is manufactured and distributed before a particular flu season begins, it is in fact IMPOSSIBLE to test that particular formulation. It is also impossible to quantify the degree of protection it will provide.

 

But anti-vaxxers don't like the WHOLE truth. They just like the soundbites they can use to manipulate the public discourse.

 

That is correct.

The WHO decides which stains will probably appear the next saison. It is up to the local authorities and infectious disease experts to decide which strains will be put in the vaccination cocktail.

Belgium for example has 4 flu variants in the vaccine. It is obviously paid back by our National social insurance to anyone over 50, pregnant women, those with a reduced immunity, as any developed Nation will do.

[Keys2Heaven]

That is correct.

The WHO decides which stains will probably appear the next saison. It is up to the local authorities and infectious disease experts to decide which strains will be put in the vaccination cocktail.

Belgium for example has 4 flu variants in the vaccine. It is obviously paid back by our National social insurance to anyone over 50, pregnant women, those with a reduced immunity, as any developed Nation will do.

 

Get off it folks. I made a comparison, and in hindsight a bad one apparently, to state that mandatory flu vaccinations for HEALTHCARE workers in a hospital really does squat, much like a muster drill that someone else posted. That was my comparison and my opinion. It is NOT an indictment on vaccines, the efficacy of such or on any other other countries healthcare system.

 

 

Drop it and move on please. :mad: