Terrorist Preparedness @ Sea

[Cancruizer]

Don't forget the Seabourn Spirit that got hit by a RPG off the Somilian Coast back in 2005:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4409662.stm

 

DW and I always take our own personal security very seriously - see attached.

 

Of course the ultimate deterent would be to have dear MiL onboard, but she is on permanent loan to Loch Ness.

 

Omg I'm in stiches :')... (I digress I know this is a serious subject)

[GottaKnowWhen]

I would NOT like to know what cruise lines do to mitigate the risk of a terror attack at sea (or in port). The effectiveness of such measures partially depends on terrorists NOT knowing exactly what they might face in terms of defense of the ship and passengers.

 

 

 

I wonder about the motives of the OP, trying to encourage discussion of defensive precautions on an open forum like this. Really!?! You want the whole world, bad guys as well as good guys, to know how our cruise ships are protected? Remember the WWII poster? “Loose lips sink ships.”

 

 

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[markeb]

I agree with ABC, two different situations entirely. There have been some very interesting responses/experiences, but I would like to get back on topic as I really would like to know what cruise lines do to mitigate the chances of a terror attack at sea?

 

I guess I should have couched my query specific to sailings from US ports in waters not considered to be troubled areas of the world.

Tx - BZ

 

So, the generic answer to your question is they do a combination of visible and not visible activities to minimize the opportunity of anyone to bring something dangerous onboard. I have a healthy anti-terrorism paranoia brought on by years in uniform and years of international travel (I have, for instance, been in the now rebuilt Brussels airport twice in the last twelve months, following the attack on the airport), but am reasonably confident than an event at sea is unlikely.

 

If you seriously want to not be a target, don't be a soft target. Don't go on tours on large buses well away from port security. Don't wander around in port in large groups with stickers on your shirts clearly identifying you as a tourist on a cruise ship. Do not, under any circumstances, hang out with 250-300 of your closest friends on the outside deck of Senor Frogs! Although the attack on the Bataclan in Paris occurred inside the venue, that's something of a rarity; the attack against the crowd leaving the Ariana Grande concert was much more likely to succeed at it was an attack outside the security perimeter. The very first real recommendation of every anti-terrorism training course I ever took was to not be obvious, followed by avoiding large crowds...

[mom says]

I would NOT like to know what cruise lines do to mitigate the risk of a terror attack at sea (or in port). The effectiveness of such measures partially depends on terrorists NOT knowing exactly what they might face in terms of defense of the ship and passengers.

 

I couldn't agree more. I will just take it on faith that X's Corporate aren't complete idiots, and that their Security department consists of more than just mall cops. Pretty sure that if and when they feel that sailing in the Caribbean has a high risk for terrorism, they will have the proper counter measures. I don't need to know the details, nor should I.

[neverbeenhere]

In the past, I had no phobias or mental issues(this could be questioned) that would have any effect on my life. After reading this thread, I am becoming aware of a tall grey man that follows me outside when it is sunny. Also, now I have terristaphobia, musteraphobia, and vaccinaphobia.

[Beejay4016]

Anybody remember the Achille Lauro terrorist attack in 1985?

 

My thoughts exactly. Such a lovely, soft target. Until recently I had a bookmarked website belonging to a US-based marine law specialist. That question was often put to him and his answer was very firmly that, no, cruise ships do not carry armed anti-terrorism teams. It's probably best not to google the amount of incidents where ships have been attacked and the way in which Captains endeavour to protect their vessels.

[Beejay4016]

Of course, the waters around New Zealand can be really dangerous if there are any French special agents loitering in the darkness.

 

 

 

Oops, I hope there are no French readers on this thread, and for any Kiwi ones, I hope you forgive my reference to the Rainbow Warrior - certainly no disrespect intended.

[Keys2Heaven]

I wonder about the motives of the OP, trying to encourage discussion of defensive precautions on an open forum like this. Really!?! You want the whole world, bad guys as well as good guys, to know how our cruise ships are protected? Remember the WWII poster? “Loose lips sink ships.”

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The bad guys already know and I'm sure they can find out if they really want to. Fortunately, very few have been nuts enough in modern times to actually target cruise ships.

 

I was in the Navy back in the 80's and we were always told to keep out mouths shut when in port, as the Russians or other foreign agencies had spies everywhere. However, the dirty little secret is that the Russians probably knew more about our ships than some of the sailors onboard them.

 

Whenever I go abroad (or even here at home), my old military thinking follows me and I'm very vigilant about situational awareness, exit routes, etc. Call it paranoia, but I always think that someone in these ports of call is out to get me or my family and how would I respond to that situation if it did happen.

[banzaii]

Of course, the waters around New Zealand can be really dangerous if there are any French special agents loitering in the darkness.

 

 

 

Oops, I hope there are no French readers on this thread, and for any Kiwi ones, I hope you forgive my reference to the Rainbow Warrior - certainly no disrespect intended.

Are you suggesting that Greenpeace is a terrorist organisation or that they were targeted by one?[emoji14]

[chengkp75]

My thoughts exactly. Such a lovely, soft target. Until recently I had a bookmarked website belonging to a US-based marine law specialist. That question was often put to him and his answer was very firmly that, no, cruise ships do not carry armed anti-terrorism teams. It's probably best not to google the amount of incidents where ships have been attacked and the way in which Captains endeavour to protect their vessels.

 

I can guess the website you mention, and I will just say that his "articles" have a pretty loose relationship with the truth (having been misquoted by him on a couple of occasions). While it may be true in the past that there were not "armed anti-terrorism teams" on any cruise ships, this is not the case with ships today cruising in certain areas of the world. And, while it is true that most cruise ships do not have "anti-terrorism teams" onboard, the question as to whether or not the ship's security force, or the licensed officers have arms available was not answered, as this depends on the flag state of the ship, and the company's ISPS code, and as I've noted, there is no way that this "lawyer" would know whether or not a particular cruise ship has arms onboard.

 

And, as I've noted, on Dutch flagged cruise ships (HAL), the company has the right to request government troops, and the government will decide whether to grant the request or not, based on the threat vector.

[JBare]

I couldn't agree more. I will just take it on faith that X's Corporate aren't complete idiots, and that their Security department consists of more than just mall cops. Pretty sure that if and when they feel that sailing in the Caribbean has a high risk for terrorism, they will have the proper counter measures. I don't need to know the details, nor should I.

 

Couldn't agree more.

[pa-annie]

I wonder about the motives of the OP, trying to encourage discussion of defensive precautions on an open forum like this. Really!?! You want the whole world, bad guys as well as good guys, to know how our cruise ships are protected? Remember the WWII poster? “Loose lips sink ships.”

 

Yep ... you caught me Sherlock. I am out on an open forum which I have been participating in for 14 years now because I have nefarious intentions. Glad that you are comfortable that the US gov. and the cruise lines have their "ducks in a row".

 

 

BZ

[TeeRick]

I am of the opinion that it is less likely that terrorists will openly attack passengers/crew members on a cruise ship sailing on the open ocean with no strategy of escape - unless they are extremists and suicidal which is always a factor I guess. I am actually much more concerned with attacks while ships are docked in port. It would be pretty easy to breach the minimal port security from what I have seen in most places and to get by the very minimal ship security at the ship entry/exit ramps. It is really sad that we need to even have this discussion but it is an important one!

[ginger123snaps]

I'm a normal....average citizen...if this thought has crossed my mind....I take peace in knowing that it has crossed securities' minds and they have a plan. It's all I can hope for.....

[chengkp75]

Yep ... you caught me Sherlock. I am out on an open forum which I have been participating in for 14 years now because I have nefarious intentions. Glad that you are comfortable that the US gov. and the cruise lines have their "ducks in a row".

 

BZ

 

While I don't think you are trying to weasel classified information here, and I've explained why details of ship and port security are not common knowledge, my question is from this post. If you don't feel the US government "has its ducks in a row" why would you suspect that the cruise lines would do anything better?

 

As has been the case since the Lincoln assassination, and 9/11, there is no way to absolutely stop the dedicated assassin or terrorist. The best you can hope for is to minimize the risk, and I believe that the ISPS code, as implemented at least in the US and Europe, does this very well.

[leisuretraveler223]

I will disagree with you regarding the muster drill. It gives the passengers an idea of where to go in an emergency (which is its primary function), and it gives the crew the ability to drill with actual, snotty, disinterested, and entitled passengers, so they can gain experience in the real world dealing with the difficulties of passengers.

 

I think the key is "in it's current construct", I find the muster drill to be of very limited benefit. I go to a random place on the ship and listen to a recording or watch a video that half the time I can neither see nor hear. I understand the benefit of the drill from the staff standpoint of practicing herding the passengers. But from a passenger standpoint, I think there are far more efficient ways of conveying the information.

 

Sadly, while SOLAS is well intentioned, it's policies and standards are also woefully outdated.

[pa-annie]

While I don't think you are trying to weasel classified information here, and I've explained why details of ship and port security are not common knowledge, my question is from this post. If you don't feel the US government "has its ducks in a row" why would you suspect that the cruise lines would do anything better?

 

As has been the case since the Lincoln assassination, and 9/11, there is no way to absolutely stop the dedicated assassin or terrorist. The best you can hope for is to minimize the risk, and I believe that the ISPS code, as implemented at least in the US and Europe, does this very well.

 

Please note that your nonspecific response in post #38 satisfied my inquiry. I know there are no guarantees, but since I hear about air and rail security initiatives all the time I was wondering if sea terror safety got the same scrutiny.

 

Thanks again ...

[nbsjcruiser]

Don't forget the Seabourn Spirit that got hit by a RPG off the Somilian Coast back in 2005:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4409662.stm

 

DW and I always take our own personal security very seriously - see attached.

 

Of course the ultimate deterent would be to have dear MiL onboard, but she is on permanent loan to Loch Ness.

 

bwhahaha - good one. Don't tell RCI about this though, they'll have a shore excursion for pirate shooting and try and make money off it.

[nbsjcruiser]

It's funny OP. I proposed this question a couple of years after 9/11. If suicide terrorists can bring down 2 of the tallest buildings in the world and kill thousands of people, they can certainly do it to a cruise ship, with upwards of 6,000 people. The responses to my "crazy" question, was not well received. I guess things have changed over the years. :confused:

 

To me the easiest target is an all inclusive in a country like Mexico. Drug Lords run that country and its only a matter of time before they target a resort.

[chengkp75]

I think the key is "in it's current construct", I find the muster drill to be of very limited benefit. I go to a random place on the ship and listen to a recording or watch a video that half the time I can neither see nor hear. I understand the benefit of the drill from the staff standpoint of practicing herding the passengers. But from a passenger standpoint, I think there are far more efficient ways of conveying the information.

 

Sadly, while SOLAS is well intentioned, it's policies and standards are also woefully outdated.

 

So, what would be your suggestion to improve the muster drill, from "its current construct". The "random" location you go to for muster has been studied and designed to meet criteria of ingress, egress, volume, fire protection, ventilation, and quite a few other considerations based on crowd and crisis management paradigms. Your duty as a passenger is to report to the muster location, when directed, shut up, and listen for instructions. That's it. Most of the information given at the muster drill is supplemental to your safety. Even lifejackets are not really needed even in ship abandoning. The only requirement that SOLAS has is that the procedure for donning a lifejacket be presented, whether at the muster or on a video loop available full time on the TV.

 

If you feel that the muster is all about the boats, you are sadly mistaken. The passenger muster is all about accountability, and the ability to herd passengers into known, controlled locations, and determine if anyone is missing. This allows the teams responding to the emergency to focus on their primary function of dealing with the emergency, and not on searching for lost passengers. Depending on the emergency, and the decisions of the Captain and other senior officers, the muster will normally be called long before there is a significant threat to the vast majority of passengers, just to get them out of the way. There are more cases of passengers being sent to muster locations, when the Captain has no intention of abandoning ship but merely needs to account for the passengers, than ships that have been abandoned.

[chengkp75]

One exercise I recommend to those who feel that muster is a waste of time, is to mentally train yourself for emergencies. I do this all the time, and I do at least 26 fire and boat drills every year (for the past 42 years). Think of a place on the ship where you might normally be, say a bar or restaurant. Then pick a spot for a fire. Now, visualize your route from the bar to your muster station without going through the fire location, or above it, since the area above the fire would be restricted as well. If that's not sufficiently challenging for you, actually do it with your eyes closed, simulating loss of emergency power. It is your responsibility to get yourself to the muster location, wherever it may be, and from there, you only need to follow instructions.

[nbsjcruiser]

Much in the same way that hospitals mandate that all employees receive the flu vaccine every year, when there is no proof that this helps reduce new flu cases. It is done primarily to give the illusion to the general public that health facilities are safe.

 

For your review

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm

 

Some Key points:

• Flu vaccination also has been associated with reduced hospitalizations among people with diabetes (79%) and chronic lung disease (52%).
  
• Flu vaccination has been associated with lower rates of some cardiac (heart) events among people with heart disease, especially among those who experienced a cardiac event in the past year.
  
• Flu vaccination also may make your illness milder if you do get sick. (For example a 2017 study showed that flu vaccination reduced deaths, intensive care unit (ICU) admissions, ICU length of stay, and overall duration of hospitalization among hospitalized flu patients.)
  
• A 2014 study showed that flu vaccine reduced children’s risk of flu-related pediatric intensive care unit (PICU) admission by 74% during flu seasons from 2010-2012.
  
• In 2017, a study in the journal Pediatrics was the first of its kind to show that flu vaccination also significantly reduced a child’s risk of dying from the flu.
  

What studies did you base your post on. Just curious.

[Wayfairers]

One exercise I recommend to those who feel that muster is a waste of time, is to mentally train yourself for emergencies. I do this all the time, and I do at least 26 fire and boat drills every year (for the past 42 years). Think of a place on the ship where you might normally be, say a bar or restaurant. Then pick a spot for a fire. Now, visualize your route from the bar to your muster station without going through the fire location, or above it, since the area above the fire would be restricted as well. If that's not sufficiently challenging for you, actually do it with your eyes closed, simulating loss of emergency power. It is your responsibility to get yourself to the muster location, wherever it may be, and from there, you only need to follow instructions.

 

 

 

Thanks for posting this. Sometimes I think my DH and I are the only ones that think this way.

 

We always look at exit routes on planes, ships, heck, even when not confined to a vessel. We check store front reflections when walking and pay attention to our surroundings. All for personal security, neither of us wants to be the person looking to someone else to rescue us - nobody cares about our life as much as we do.

 

 

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[Keys2Heaven]

 

What studies did you base your post on. Just curious.

 

I'm not discussing this anymore. I asked to drop it in a previous post. It is not relevant to the topic at hand.

[John319a]

I'm honestly surprised that nobody's tried to attack/blow up a cruise ship... Seems like exactly what a terrorist would want: lots of people in a place previously thought safe

Edited January 25, 2018 by John319a