Single thread - New website issues and discussions

[3rdGenCunarder]

And a CEO who apparently never learned anything from the New Coke debacle during his prior employment with Coca Cola.

 

What's that quote about if you fail to learn from history you're doomed to repeat it?

[Haboob]

What's that quote about if you fail to learn from history you're doomed to repeat it?

 

Methinks it's a walk-and-chew-gum problem.

 

An "old people and their parents" demographic will ...shrink over time. HAL is showing

that it gets that. What it's not showing is an understanding that it needs to also keep

its current customers while looking for the needed new customers.

[OlsSalt]

Methinks it's a walk-and-chew-gum problem.

 

An "old people and their parents" demographic will ...shrink over time. HAL is showing

that it gets that. What it's not showing is an understanding that it needs to also keep

its current customers while looking for the needed new customers.

 

Sorry but demographics work against you. The baby-boomer bulge inexorably are becoming "old people and their parents" themselves, with every tick of the clock. You can't fight it, nor rewrite the obituary columns in your local newspapers.

 

Here is the clue - everyone thinks they are still age 35 no matter what the clock or mirror says. Baby boomers are no exception. They are now "old people with their parents" too, except like all other generations they don't believe this either. Look how many recent new HAL midlife cruiser we are hearing from here who are very pleased with the more sedate and traditional HAL offerings. Don't mess with it.

[bUU]

What it's not showing is an understanding that it needs to also keep its current customers while looking for the needed new customers.

Without actually having the data showing how much current customer erosion there's been there's no way to be able to say that with any integrity. Again what I hear is a lot of frustration that people don't like what changes are happening therefore making up a lot of baseless presumptions to justify expressing their personal dissatisfaction as if it were an objective criticism.

 

 

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

[Haboob]

Without actually having the data showing how much current customer erosion there's been there's no way to be able to say that with any integrity. Again what I hear is a lot of frustration that people don't like what changes are happening therefore making up a lot of baseless presumptions to justify expressing their personal dissatisfaction as if it were an objective criticism.

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

 

Uhh... What you're hearing is outrage at releasing a website with broken links,

a failure to implement site-wide credentialing, reliance on cross-domain printing

(which triggers ad-blockers), and which abandons HTML5 standards in favor of

Microsoft proprietary extensions.

 

What you're also hearing is frustration at a design which realizes that being

attractive is a necessary goal, but which forgets the primary goal should be

to close the sale.

[bUU]

What you're also hearing is frustration at a design which realizes that being attractive is a necessary goal, but which forgets the primary goal should be to close the sale.

Yet again you resort to a criticism for which you have no data.

 

And for the rest, we've already gone over all of it before. The dual credentials is weird but not unprecedented. The web application for which I have just become product manager works that way. Fixing that is on my list of things to do, but there are higher priorities. For the rest, I don't think this thread is a representative sampling of users. I am beginning to wonder if people who hate the changes are simply not trying a reasonable amount to do things the new way. But I will admit that I have no data to back that up. Guess who does.

 

And I trust informed, professional perspectives on the appropriate resourcing to devote to such concerns over that of perspectives without benefit of access to the data.

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

Edited April 27, 2018 by bUU

[OlsSalt]

Uhh... What you're hearing is outrage at releasing a website with broken links,

a failure to implement site-wide credentialing, reliance on cross-domain printing

(which triggers ad-blockers), and which abandons HTML5 standards in favor of

Microsoft proprietary extensions.

 

What you're also hearing is frustration at a design which realizes that being

attractive is a necessary goal, but which forgets the primary goal should be

to close the sale.

 

Exactly. Then blaming us for not wanting to learn new things is insult on top of injury.

[Haboob]

Yet again you resort to a criticism for which you have no data.

 

For the visual and functional design of the website, I'll believe my lying eyes.

 

And for the rest, we've already gone over all of it before. The dual credentials is weird but not unprecedented. The web application for which I have just become product manager works that way. Fixing that is on my list of things to do, but there are higher priorities.

If you inherit a mess (my sympathies, BTW) that's one thing. But the time to fix

such when replacing a functioning website that is acceptable to your customers

but unacceptable to marketing is BEFORE you release it to market. If HAL's

QA manager didn't get overridden, they need a new QA manager.

 

For the rest, I don't think this thread is a representative sampling of users.

The rule of thumb is that you'll only hear from 1 in 10 dissatisfied customers on

their way out, the other 9 will simply leave.

 

I am beginning to wonder if people who hate the changes are simply not trying a reasonable amount to do things the new way.

 

I'll quote myself from the other thread...

If you want people to willingly hand you money, you must cater to THEIR opinion

on what will give THEM the most pleasure, lest they give that money to someone

--horrors!-- else.

 

And I trust informed, professional perspectives on the appropriate resourcing to devote to such concerns over that of perspectives without benefit of access to the data.

 

A pleasure to have provided it. ;)

 

"Here endeth the lesson"

-- Ofc Malone, The Untouchables

[bEwAbG]

I'm not sure what defending the indefensible accomplishes other than being a contrarian. After several weeks of problems (nicely summarized by Haboob above), HAL sent out an email at the end of last week to tell people that they're not able to roll all of the new website out until "early May" so you may be redirected to the old site in the meantime. That seems to have been the case since then. That is an admission that things are not working as planned.

[bUU]

Exactly. Then blaming us for not wanting to learn new things is insult on top of injury.

Who's blaming? I said, "I am beginning to wonder if people who hate the changes are simply not trying a reasonable amount to do things the new way." My comment was generic, bland, and as polite as can be while still being true to my professional expertise: Users who don't like your changes will report problems when there are no problems. Meanwhile, your reply was caustically defensive.

 

And as I relayed early in the thread, this exact scenario played out here on Cruise Critic when Cruise Critic changed its website design. Same exact thing.

 

For the visual and functional design of the website, I'll believe my lying eyes.

Then why even presume to speculate about whether the website helps, "close the sale"? You don't know what kind of sales it is closing. You just know how pleasing the site is to your eyes.

 

If you inherit a mess (my sympathies, BTW) that's one thing. But the time to fix such when replacing a functioning website that is acceptable to your customers but unacceptable to marketing is BEFORE you release it to market.

We were talking about dual credentials. The website always had that as long as I have been cruising the cruise line, probably a lot longer since it is, as was explained to me once, a reflection of different systems. While today we would spend the time and money to obscure that difference, back in the day that wasn't done. Like I said, the web application I just inherited is like that too. We'll get around to fixing it someday. But not today.

 

So, stop - not just "moving the goalposts", but stop twisting the goalposts into pretzels to rationalize what you're saying. Remember: The new parts of the website are working perfectly for me. And you don't know how many people are having problems. Even if everyone posting in this website was actually having problems - even if it was twenty times that number of people - and if none of those problems were attributable to extensions, out of date software, cache corruption, or just plain lack of trying because they don't like change, it wouldn't amount to a significant number of customers.

 

If you want people to willingly hand you money, you must cater to THEIR opinion on what will give THEM the most pleasure, lest they give that money to someone --horrors!-- else.

And I've said many times in many threads that, as OlsSalt said above, "Sorry but demographics work against you."

 

I'm not sure what defending the indefensible accomplishes other than being a contrarian.

There's nothing "contrarian" about withstanding the typical browbeating we see in the Holland America forum directed by the traditionalists at those who don't see change as a bad thing all the time. The future of the cruise line depends on getting enough younger people to start cruising the cruise line, and that's not going to happen as long as the traditionalists are the only voice that gets heard.

 

 

After several weeks of problems (nicely summarized by Haboob above), HAL sent out an email at the end of last week to tell people that they're not able to roll all of the new website out until "early May" so you may be redirected to the old site in the meantime.

You do realize that I'm a customer with a current booking. I received no such email, which means it was sent to a limited set of recipients rather than to every customer. If I were receiving the kind of feedback that I'm seeing here, but my investigation shows no merit in that feedback, seeing the website operating as designed and no one able to demonstrate the problems they're describing in a way that is reproducible by anyone on my tech team, then I would put out whatever fluffy public statements I can think of to mollify people, without any real intent beyond those words. That's also underwriting the impression that I relayed earlier, that I wonder if a professional at the cruise line has assessed the complaints and found them without merit, likely a combination of problems on the user's side and general dissatisfaction with the changes to the cruise line, and has decided to handle the situation by going forward with the normal handling of refinement of the website after deployment while telling the people who complain that their complaints have been heard.

 

Yet again I just cleared my cache and hit hollandamerica.com. It's the new website.

Edited April 27, 2018 by bUU

[sail7seas]

I w ent to HAL site and was able, at long last to view my Mariner record. Horrah!.... I am smiling now. :) Perhaps I'll push my luck this weekend and see if there is a cruise that jumps out an says'

 

Book me'. :)

 

My friends again invited me to sail with them and while I love their company, the date doesn't w ork for me. I have to decide if I want to sail alone.

Edited April 27, 2018 by sail7seas

[Friend100]

I went to my Mariner account and now see my "graduation" to 2☆ now being official [emoji3].

 

[emoji481][emoji482][emoji481][emoji482]

[richwmn]

Very glad to see you found your information!

[catl331]

Good news! And are all the numbers correct? They fixed the arithmetic errors in ours!

[Irish Eyes Are Sailing]

Good News....glad they got it fixed!

Hope you decide to sail, Ms Sails.....I am sure you would have a good time!

[sail7seas]

I went to my Mariner account and now see my "graduation" to 2☆ now being official [emoji3].

 

[emoji481][emoji482][emoji481][emoji482]

 

 

went to my Mariner account and now see my "graduation" to 2☆ now being official .

 

 

Congratulations and wishes for you to have many more wonderful cruises as you accumulate those stars.

[Haboob]

For what it's worth, just got...

 

8< Snip

YOUR CONNECTION IS NOT SECURE.

 

The owner of hollandamerica.com has configured their website improperly. To protect

your information from being stolen, Firefox has not connected to this website.

 

hollandamerica.com uses an invalid security certificate.

The certificate is only valid for *.test.edgekey.net

Error code: SSL_ERROR_BAD_CERT_DOMAIN.

>8 End Snip

 

EdgeKey is a content delivery network provider for HAL. What the message means

is that HAL answered up to "https://hollandamerica.com" without the "www" (good idea)

but didn't change out the testing certificate with the live one. (poor install checklist

and no post-install review)

 

♬ ...and the beat goes on... ♬

Edited April 27, 2018 by Haboob
Added a missing ".com" to URL

[Sue from Canada]

How long can they let this continue until they finally take out the checkbook and hire the most competent able techs they can find? This web site mess has to have already cost them some 'real' money..

 

Why or why does HAL think that they always have to make changes to everything. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I hate the new site. Last night I wanted to look for a cruise to book - gave up. Must be a lot of yuppies at HAL...

[sail7seas]

Good News....glad they got it fixed!

Hope you decide to sail, Ms Sails.....I am sure you would have a good time!

 

Thank you :)

Congratulations and wishes for you to have many more wonderful cruises as you accumulate those stars.

[sail7seas]

Very glad to see you found your information!

Thanks, :)

 

 

 

They had me correctly at 5 **. I stopped keeping track long ago of how may days I have but they had me at 900 or something and I suppose that is 'close enough'. Affer 500 , the p;rogram maxes out so doesn' matter if I have more or not. . So many of the days have no value but for the memories. Seems many Mariners have 500 + days so it would be good if the program grew with our 'adding' days to our accounts. :) If they would add a benefit for some of he ore than "500 days'

Edited April 27, 2018 by sail7seas

[Krazy Kruizers]

I will have to go and check out HAL.

Hope you find a cruise you will like.

[Haboob]

Why or why does HAL think that they always have to make changes to everything. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I hate the new site. Last night I wanted to look for a cruise to book - gave up. Must be a lot of yuppies at HAL...

 

It's obvious that HAL feels they need to be where the people entering their target

demographic are looking. I've got zero problem with that.

 

Where I have major heartburn is with their failure to adequately test, their sloppy

implementation; but most of all the neglect of legacy support -- which implies they

think their current customer base can go hang.

[sail7seas]

I will have to go and check out HAL.

Hope you find a cruise you will like.

 

Thanks, KK. Hope you are able to check your account, ok.

Edited April 27, 2018 by sail7seas

[sail7seas]

They had me correctly at 5 **. I stopped keeping track long ago of how may days I have but they had me at 900 or something and I suppose that is 'close enough'. Affer 500 , the p;rogram maxes out so doesn' matter if I have more or not. . So many of the days have no value but for the memories. Seems many Mariners have 500 + days so it would be good if the program grew with our 'adding' days to our accounts. :) If they would add a benefit for some of the more than "500 days'

[PSR]

It's obvious that HAL feels they need to be where the people entering their target

demographic are looking. I've got zero problem with that.

 

Where I have major heartburn is with their failure to adequately test, their sloppy

implementation; but most of all the neglect of legacy support -- which implies they

think their current customer base can go hang.

 

Haboob, your comments and explanations are great!!!!:D