Are vaccines the light at the end of the tunnel?

[nomad098]

On 12/1/2020 at 11:43 PM, nocl said:

Care to provide a link to the zebra fish study.

 

My understanding of the use of zebra fish in 2018 was to use them for developmental tox studies using zebra fish embryo and that any transgenerational impacts were during treatments during the embryo developmental stage.  It is my understanding that the vaccines are currently not tested and certainly not recommended for pregnant mothers.

 

There are a number of drugs that have transgenerational impacts on zebra fish.  For example fluoxetine (FLX) exposure during early zebrafish development induces hypocortisolism for at least three generations

 

I can't find the exact paper I read and referred to, it was a study of transgenesis of synthetic mRNA in zebrafish,  it's quite strange there are a few papers I remember reading involving cancer treatments and the use of mRNA that I just cannot find.  There was one particular paper discussing the use of mRNA to create a R-loop to alter the DNA of a cancer cells, this was a peer reviewed paper from Feb 2020 and showed great promise for the treatment of aggressive cancers but it just seems to have disappeared from google search results. Strange the way the google algorithm works. 

Here is another couple of papers dealing with the subject on a broader level 

https://www.dovepress.com/a-molecular-toolbox-for-genetic-manipulation-of-zebrafish-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-AGG

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/transgenic-zebrafish

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Transgenesis-in-zebrafish-The-synthetic-transposase-mRNA-and-a-transposon-donor-plasmid_fig2_5799660

 

The UK has stated that under 18's and pregnant women will be excluded from having the vaccine until further study is done. 

Edited December 3, 2020 by nomad098
Grammar

[Arizona Wildcat]

11 hours ago, D C said:

Those numbers seem preposterous (depending on what 'essential workers' means) 

 

Non-kids (not recommended for the vaccine from what I've seen), non-young-adults.... so the average 25-60 year old people not in a patient-care role comprise only 5% of the population?  Engineers, accountants, business people, marketing, advertising, and any other sort of role is part of the only 5% in phase 5?

 

Frankly, if we only give this to healthcare workers and those in extended care facilities, we'll prevent enough deaths such that covid won't even qualify as an epidemic any longer. 

 

 

Not in Arizona.  In last weeks under 10 deaths in care facilities.  Total lockdown with several large facilities here with workers living on site!

Got to remember the percentage of adults that have diabetes (35 million) and somewhere in the 35% area that are obese - not just overweight.

[mimbecky]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

Some states like CA, WA, OR, NV and NY have governors that said they would set up their own "mini-FDA review" so not sure of the time line for them to review and approve a vaccine

Here in California we are being told that the first 2 phases of each vaccine are already being reviewed and they promise the balance of review will take no more than 2 days to rubber stamp after FDA approval. 😏

 

Wilma Wooten (our Health Service officer in San Diego) mentioned we had one deep freezer in the county for the Pfizer vaccine, and have purchased another. Many of use were surprised that we don't have a plethora of them here since we have a large biotech industry.  This points out how far and few there may actually be out there....

M

[zanderblue]

I had my 3rd appointment earlier this week as a participant in the Novavax stage 3 trial.

Brief medical check of vital signs and a blood sample taken for antibody testing.

I had a chat with doc regarding being vaccinated with approved vaccine. When I am invited to be vaccinated I need to call the study team and they will drop me from study and advise whether I had placebo or vaccine. If latter, she mentioned having further antibody test before decision being made in how to proceed.

[mimbecky]

7 minutes ago, zanderblue said:

When I am invited to be vaccinated I need to call the study team and they will drop me from study and advise whether I had placebo or vaccine.

That is awesome! Johnson and Johnson said they would not un-blind us in such an event.  That is why we passed.  I just read a couple of days ago that Novavaxx was on pause in the US.  Glad it is back on- good luck and let us know how you feel through out your trial.

M

Edited December 3, 2020 by mimbecky

[TeeRick]

21 minutes ago, zanderblue said:

I had my 3rd appointment earlier this week as a participant in the Novavax stage 3 trial.

Brief medical check of vital signs and a blood sample taken for antibody testing.

I had a chat with doc regarding being vaccinated with approved vaccine. When I am invited to be vaccinated I need to call the study team and they will drop me from study and advise whether I had placebo or vaccine. If latter, she mentioned having further antibody test before decision being made in how to proceed.

How frequent are they doing nose swabs to check for the virus in the Novavax trial?

[zanderblue]

2 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

How frequent are they doing nose swabs to check for the virus in the Novavax trial?

 

They are only doing throat and nose swabs at direction of study team. The protocol is that we need to call the team within 24 hours if we have symptoms. (We have been given an extended list of symptoms to be aware of)

The team will discuss symptoms with us then decide if we need to do swabs. We have 3 test kits at home with us, and have been advised we will need to use on 3 consecutive days if told to use them.

[zanderblue]

Below is an extract from the email we were sent.........

 

”This email is a reminder of what to do if you start to have any of these possible COVID symptoms as described on your ‘emergency card’;

-        New onset of cough

-        New onset of shortness of breath

-        New loss of taste or smell

-        New fever (38C or above)

-        New onset of fatigue

-        New onset of muscle aches or pains

-        All three of sore throat, congestion and runny nose together

-        New headache lasting >48 hours

-        New nausea or vomiting or diarrhoea lasting >48 hours

 

Please call the trial team on XXXXXXXXXXXX within 24 hours of the onset of any of these symptoms. Calls during office hours are preferable where possible; out with these times you will be connected to the hospital switchboard – please ask for the on-call Novavax vaccine trial doctor.

 

A study nurse or doctor will then discuss your symptoms and advise if it could be COVID. Please do not self-swab until you have been asked to do so.

 

Many thanks, hopefully you will remain symptom free.”

[Arizona Wildcat]

15 hours ago, LGW59 said:

but keep in mind, $$$$$ talks.

What is your point?  US already fronted a couple billion $$.  We will have plenty of vaccine by Spring.

As to the comment about the "rich and famous" - there are a small number.  Many would support pro athletes getting the vaccine early so they can have their sports.  Again - very small number.

[Arizona Wildcat]

4 hours ago, zanderblue said:

 

They are only doing throat and nose swabs at direction of study team. The protocol is that we need to call the team within 24 hours if we have symptoms. (We have been given an extended list of symptoms to be aware of)

The team will discuss symptoms with us then decide if we need to do swabs. We have 3 test kits at home with us, and have been advised we will need to use on 3 consecutive days if told to use them.

There are no swab tests during the trial so far?

Very different here with Moderna.  Visit with swabs every couple weeks.

Rick - how else could they find those with asymptomatic COVID without regular swab tests.  The protocol for Novavax sounds simply like a generic safety heads up.  Didn't their phase 3 trail start just days ago?

[Arizona Wildcat]

4 hours ago, mimbecky said:

Here in California we are being told that the first 2 phases of each vaccine are already being reviewed and they promise the balance of review will take no more than 2 days to rubber stamp after FDA approval. 😏

 

Wilma Wooten (our Health Service officer in San Diego) mentioned we had one deep freezer in the county for the Pfizer vaccine, and have purchased another. Many of use were surprised that we don't have a plethora of them here since we have a large biotech industry.  This points out how far and few there may actually be out there....

M

Tucson has several super cold freezers.  Maybe connected with a couple of cryogenic businesses and a medical school.

Had my laugh for the day.  With apologies in advance for being snarky.  Maybe Governor Cuomo can do the review on the vaccine since he "looks" really knowledgeable on TV on all facets of COVID.

[zanderblue]

3 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

There are no swab tests during the trial so far?

Very different here with Moderna.  Visit with swabs every couple weeks.

Rick - how else could they find those with asymptomatic COVID without regular swab tests.  The protocol for Novavax sounds simply like a generic safety heads up.  Didn't their phase 3 trail start just days ago?

On first visit I had swab test and antibody test. 

Phase 3 trial started here In Scotland in October and is due to run for 12 months.

[nocl]

10 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

I can't find the exact paper I read and referred to, it was a study of transgenesis of synthetic mRNA in zebrafish,  it's quite strange there are a few papers I remember reading involving cancer treatments and the use of mRNA that I just cannot find.  There was one particular paper discussing the use of mRNA to create a R-loop to alter the DNA of a cancer cells, this was a peer reviewed paper from Feb 2020 and showed great promise for the treatment of aggressive cancers but it just seems to have disappeared from google search results. Strange the way the google algorithm works. 

Here is another couple of papers dealing with the subject on a broader level 

https://www.dovepress.com/a-molecular-toolbox-for-genetic-manipulation-of-zebrafish-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-AGG

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/transgenic-zebrafish

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Transgenesis-in-zebrafish-The-synthetic-transposase-mRNA-and-a-transposon-donor-plasmid_fig2_5799660

 

The UK has stated that under 18's and pregnant women will be excluded from having the vaccine until further study is done. 

As far as the under 18's and pregnant women that is normal for a drug at this stage of development.  The manufacturers will do safety studies before allowing children.  Getting any drug approved for pregnant women takes a lot of work.  It may be years before that work can be completed.

[nocl]

10 hours ago, mimbecky said:

Here in California we are being told that the first 2 phases of each vaccine are already being reviewed and they promise the balance of review will take no more than 2 days to rubber stamp after FDA approval. 😏

 

Wilma Wooten (our Health Service officer in San Diego) mentioned we had one deep freezer in the county for the Pfizer vaccine, and have purchased another. Many of use were surprised that we don't have a plethora of them here since we have a large biotech industry.  This points out how far and few there may actually be out there....

M

I suspect that some of the biotech companies have them.  But that would not make them available for vaccine storage.

[LGW59]

5 hours ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

What is your point?  US already fronted a couple billion $$.  We will have plenty of vaccine by Spring.

As to the comment about the "rich and famous" - there are a small number.  Many would support pro athletes getting the vaccine early so they can have their sports.  Again - very small number.

My point is that a scientist at my company, who has been contributing to the Moderna research and trials, when I directly asked her, other than the announced list of order for vaccine, what else will come in to play.  She said, "keep in mind this is the good old USA, and money talks and it will for this as well".  If you think for one nano-second it won't, no matter how small that population is, you are fooling yourself. 

[nocl]

14 hours ago, emmas gran said:

They are saying a batch is 975 vials of Pfizer, a slight programme when going to Care Homes in which the elderly reside. This may delay that stage until they “figure it out”

 

Apparently this vaccine will survive in a “cooler type box” for around 5/6 hours 

Depends upon what you mean a cooler type box.  Pfizer has indicated that their shippers can maintain the product for 5 days on dry ice.

 

If by cooler they mean a normal refrigerator or in a standard cooler at normal ice temperatures than 5-6 hours sounds about right.

 

I expect that sometime next year Pfizer will be announcing a  lyophilized (dry powdered version) version that will not require freezing.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by nocl

[emmas gran]

nocl -you are correct re the cooler box, I was trying to find an American word it seems this type of box to transport to the elderly facility will by OK 

[TeeRick]

20 hours ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

There are no swab tests during the trial so far?

Very different here with Moderna.  Visit with swabs every couple weeks.

 

Rick - how else could they find those with asymptomatic COVID without regular swab tests? The protocol for Novavax sounds simply like a generic safety heads up.  Didn't their phase 3 trail start just days ago?

They would need to do regular nasal swab PCR tests as you state.  I am not sure why these trials did not plan for this as one type of outcome. I sure wish they had.  I think the Novavax COVID vaccine (and the GSK vaccine) will be interesting since this protein subunit approach is very good at inducing antibodies, but possibly not so good at inducing T-Cells.  I hope they will measure both.  It is possible that the T-cells are the key to longer lasting immunity but we shall see.

[Arizona Wildcat]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

They would need to do regular nasal swab PCR tests as you state.  I am not sure why these trials did not plan for this as one type of outcome. I sure wish they had.  I think the Novavax COVID vaccine (and the GSK vaccine) will be interesting since this protein subunit approach is very good at inducing antibodies, but possibly not so good at inducing T-Cells.  I hope they will measure both.  It is possible that the T-cells are the key to longer lasting immunity but we shall see.

The OP in this is Scottish.  They started late October.  Am guessing since he has 3 DIY tests they will likely ask for test given either some sort of symptom or in the regular followup.  Moderna here in one group was every 30 days for quick office check and swab.  

[Arizona Wildcat]

12 hours ago, emmas gran said:

nocl -you are correct re the cooler box, I was trying to find an American word it seems this type of box to transport to the elderly facility will by OK 

Think you are confused.  The -70 shipping box with approx 1000 doses is good for up to 20 days.  These boxes will go to locations where the shipment can be broken into smaller batches.  The Pfizer vaccine is good up to 5 days at regular freezer temps.

Here the 975 dose Cooler Boxes are flown in and delivered to our county health dept and a university that have super cold storage and possibly others.  They will break down and drug chains, military, etc can pickup as needed in smaller batches.

[nomad098]

Bureaucracy getting in the way of good sense here in Wales

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55189013

 

The rumor mill has it that managerial and admin staff applied for jabs before the link got to frontline staff 

[TeeRick]

18 hours ago, nomad098 said:

Bureaucracy getting in the way of good sense here in Wales

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55189013

 

The rumor mill has it that managerial and admin staff applied for jabs before the link got to frontline staff 

It would be a good thing for the committees, boards, governments, and whomever prioritizing vaccine shots to specify the word "frontline"  for the initial healthcare workers.

[K.T.B.]

While I'm sure this has been posted here before (honestly, I'm not going to search through 1,500+ comments! ), here's the CDC's recommendation for vaccine allocation:  https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2020-11/COVID-04-Dooling.pdf

 

It's going to be a bit of a clusterf*** the next 46-90 days in getting things organized, but I strongly suspect by February 1st everything will be firmly in place and people will be getting vaccinated.  And that by June/July the majority of the people who want to be vaccinated will be.  The key to getting back to semi-normal is that at least 70% get vaccinated, but I unfortunately think that only 50% will get inoculated. 

 

IMO, they need to treat the Covid vaccine roll out like they treated the polio vaccine early on: make it mandatory. Period. At least for 2 years.  Anti-vaxxers can piss & moan as much as they want, the needs of the many, etc., etc., etc.

[TeeRick]

50 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

While I'm sure this has been posted here before (honestly, I'm not going to search through 1,500+ comments! ), here's the CDC's recommendation for vaccine allocation:  https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2020-11/COVID-04-Dooling.pdf

 

It's going to be a bit of a clusterf*** the next 46-90 days in getting things organized, but I strongly suspect by February 1st everything will be firmly in place and people will be getting vaccinated.  And that by June/July the majority of the people who want to be vaccinated will be.  The key to getting back to semi-normal is that at least 70% get vaccinated, but I unfortunately think that only 50% will get inoculated. 

 

IMO, they need to treat the Covid vaccine roll out like they treated the polio vaccine early on: make it mandatory. Period. At least for 2 years.  Anti-vaxxers can piss & moan as much as they want, the needs of the many, etc., etc., etc.

Maybe 50% vaccinated will make a major impact.  We should not just assume they are the only group in the population immune to the virus. 

 

Consider the following.  How many in the US have had SARS-CoV-2 viral infections?  According to JHU over 14 million in the US today to date and that number is an undercount by far.  CDC and others estimate it could be 5X that number right now (70-75 million). If their immunity can be counted in the overall herd immunity that is an important factor. 

 

Factors to consider for herd immunity include the actual population groups involved (non-exposed people, vaccinated people with immunity, people with previous viral infection immunity, and people with natural immunity).  This does not even take into account age group differences, health differences, race differences, etc.  And how long immunity lasts.  Longer for vaccinated people vs infected people?  And what about the asymptomatic "natural" immunity?  About 40% of the population according to some CDC estimates.  But we know they can still transmit the virus.  What we do not know is whether the vaccinated group or the viral infected/recovered group can still transmit the virus.  It is all so complicated!  Books will be written about this for years to come.  Or hopefully by the next pandemic anyway.

[Crazy planning mom]

So, do you think it will be relatively safe to travel in August?  I have limited time to travel with

my son.  We are supposed to cruise Alaska in June but thinking that's going to be a no go.

So, planning a land trip in Alaska for August.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Crazy planning mom