New CDC guidelines released 5/5/21

[nocl]

10 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

I suspect that the only reason that the CDC is not requiring a vaccine for everyone is because they legally cannot.  My understanding is they would need for the vaccine to be approved by the FDA.

On the surface the 95% language might be just a way to get around the law.  If the CDC stipulates rules that are not workable without a vaccine,  then they are pushing each cruise to do what they cannot do.  (Require a vaccination)

 

Is this right?

I suspect that there are reasons why the CDC will not mandate vaccination, including the potential for legal challenge since there are mitigation strategies that would not require vaccination.

 

I expect that the 95% rule is to allow the cruise lines so flexibility in dealing with passengers with a valid medical reason why they cannot be vaccinated, some children, etc.  Not as a work around of a vaccine mandate because the decision to require vaccination is up to the cruise line. All CDC did was identify the level of vaccination that would be required for them to relax some requirements.

[Jeremiah1212]

18 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

I suspect that the only reason that the CDC is not requiring a vaccine for everyone is because they legally cannot.  My understanding is they would need for the vaccine to be approved by the FDA.

On the surface the 95% language might be just a way to get around the law.  If the CDC stipulates rules that are not workable without a vaccine,  then they are pushing each cruise to do what they cannot do.  (Require a vaccination)

 

Is this right?

 

The message Celebrity relayed last week was to allow for 5% unvaccinated minors. Everyone else 18+ needs to be vaccinated. Obviously some challenges to that concept, but that's what was relayed. 

 

The big emphasis here is restricted cruises. Not almost back to normal cruises. I'd put money on things getting back to quasi-normal state in November. If there's been one consistent this whole time, is it that the CDC almost always stays on course. 

[chengkp75]

34 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

On the surface the 95% language might be just a way to get around the law.  If the CDC stipulates rules that are not workable without a vaccine,  then they are pushing each cruise to do what they cannot do.  (Require a vaccination)

The CDC is not pushing the cruise lines to require a vaccination.  The cruise lines proposed this option to the CDC, not the other way around.  I think the 95% requirement is because the CDC knows that the cruise lines cannot guarantee 100% compliance.

[jagoffee]

8 minutes ago, nocl said:

I suspect that there are reasons why the CDC will not mandate vaccination, including the potential for legal challenge since there are mitigation strategies that would not require vaccination.

 

I expect that the 95% rule is to allow the cruise lines so flexibility in dealing with passengers with a valid medical reason why they cannot be vaccinated, some children, etc.  Not as a work around of a vaccine mandate because the decision to require vaccination is up to the cruise line. All CDC did was identify the level of vaccination that would be required for them to relax some requirements.

I am curious and I know you have a lot of knowledge in this area. I am really trying to see both sides of the argument, but I am growing increasing disappointed in the CDC. I have read all the various posts and positions on these topics. 

 

You are saying that if the vaccine had full FDA approval that the CDC would not be making it a requirement for at least a defined age group? 

Are  you also saying that the CDC is not restriction by law from making the vaccine mandatory?

 

The CDC is  pushing the responsibility and resultant liability for the decision  of who should be vaccinated and how it will be confirmed  to every single different cruise line and state?

 

 

 

From reading your posts I believe that you are a strong supporter of the CDC’s past and current approach to cruising.  I appreciate your assistance gaining a better understanding.  I do necessarily expect that I will ever share your option, I certainly appreciate you answering my questions.  
 

 

Thanks

[markeb]

13 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

I am curious and I know you have a lot of knowledge in this area. I am really trying to see both sides of the argument, but I am growing increasing disappointed in the CDC. I have read all the various posts and positions on these topics. 

 

You are saying that if the vaccine had full FDA approval that the CDC would not be making it a requirement for at least a defined age group? 

Are  you also saying that the CDC is not restriction by law from making the vaccine mandatory?

 

The CDC is  pushing the responsibility and resultant liability for the decision  of who should be vaccinated and how it will be confirmed  to every single different cruise line and state?

 

 

 

From reading your posts I believe that you are a strong supporter of the CDC’s past and current approach to cruising.  I appreciate your assistance gaining a better understanding.  I do necessarily expect that I will ever share your option, I certainly appreciate you answering my questions.  
 

 

Thanks

Hate to do this, but this is a very recent Congressional Research Service report on this. 
 

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46745#page8

 

State, local, territorial, and tribal governments generally can mandate vaccination. It’s considered a police power. The ability of the federal government to mandate vaccination, other than a few specific cases (immigration, prisoners, military) is uncertain at best under existing law. And I’d suggest isn’t going to get any clearer 8n the near term. 

[NMTraveller]

4 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

 

Which they did for the European and Mediterranean cruises.  It's been mentioned before, but it's worth mentioning again:  400,000+ passengers, only 50 cases of Covid.  PRE-vaccine.

They seem to ignore this as well as people on board will have been vaccinated.

 

Most posters reference the Diamond Princess before anything was done to remediate Covid.  They are stuck in March of 2020.

 

It is time to get the vaccine and get back to normalcy in life.

Edited May 10, 2021 by NMTraveller

[Ken the cruiser]

Wouldn't it be a hoot if Celebrity was actually working below the media radar with the CDC and applicable local port and medical authorities to complete the Edge's Phase 2A protocol plan using the 95%/98% vaccination option and submit it to the CDC for Phase 3 certification, with a 5 day turnaround, so they can get approval to proceed with scheduling the Edge for Phase 4 restricted cruises by the middle of July. What would be even more of a hoot is all of this would be completed in the next 3 weeks. I know, impossible, right??

[NMTraveller]

16 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Wouldn't it be a hoot if Celebrity was actually working below the media radar with the CDC and applicable local port and medical authorities to complete the Edge's Phase 2A protocol plan using the 95%/98% vaccination option and submit it to the CDC for Phase 3 certification, with a 5 day turnaround, so they can get approval to proceed with scheduling the Edge for Phase 4 restricted cruises by the middle of July. What would be even more of a hoot is all of this would be completed in the next 3 weeks. I know, impossible, right??

The cruise lines are talking and working with the CDC.  They don't seem to be very happy.

 

Just don't eat the soup.  It will make your mask a mess in the dining room.  

 

Suppose that the planets align,  miracles happen, and the massive bureacracy is conquered.  Will the rules be such that anyone will want to cruise?

 

I for one will not want to wear a mask on the pool deck outside.  I won't cruise.

[harkinmr]

4 hours ago, ECCruise said:

Then why, pray tell, do many posters on here absolutely INSIST that the CDC only wants cruising to be "zero risk?"  Over and over again. 

Are you kidding?  This whole thread has pretty much been the same people saying the same things over and over and over again about how impossible and unreasonable and evil the CDC is.  Enough already!  We get it!  And now we mix in 3 or 4 pages of discussion on meat packing plants.  Sheesh!  I hope the moderators shut this one down and soon.  

[HMR74]

18 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

They seem to ignore this as well as people on board will have been vaccinated.

 

Most posters reference the Diamond Princess before anything was done to remediate Covid.  They are stuck in March of 2020.

 

It is time to get the vaccine and get back to normalcy in life.

 

First of all, I have both Pfizer  shots.

 

Second, to just throw out "it is  time to get the vaccine and get back to normalcy in life"  alienates the people not planning to get the vaccine, simply because the vaccine is untested and on EUA.

 

2 years from now when the trials really have finished we might know, but realistically none of us can say there are no lasting side effects or that it's extraordinarily effective.

 

I take the flu shot every fall and I was astonished when a report from the CDC came out saying the flu shot was  about 50% effective----then a Physician wrote that's too high because many in the population get the flu but do not report it. That Dr. went on to say that based on statistics the flu shot, that many depend on, is only about 17% effective. As a result , I doubt if I will be taking a flu shot again.

 

What I fear is goal seeking eg, any issue has a targeted number to prove its good and thus when data is collected, it gets skewed one way or another to proving what you want it to prove. It happens all the time.

So I would  not write off the "anti vaxers" so quickly, and I do still question both sides of the issue. In fact, we all  have that responsibility for ourselves and our families.

 

 

 

 

[Ken the cruiser]

9 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

The cruise lines are talking and working with the CDC.  They don't seem to be very happy.

 

Just don't eat the soup.  It will make your mask a mess in the dining room.  

 

Suppose that the planets align,  miracles happen, and the massive bureacracy is conquered.  Will the rules be such that anyone will want to cruise?

 

I for one will not want to wear a mask on the pool deck outside.  I won't cruise.

Which cruise lines aren't happy besides NCLH who doesn't even have a bookable cruise out of Florida until September?

[harkinmr]

7 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Which cruise lines aren't happy besides NCLH who doesn't even have a bookable cruise out of Florida until September?

Right.  So far RCG's Richard Fain has come out and said they are working earnestly with the CDC.  Haven't heard too much from Carnival.  CLIA issued a statement shortly after the test cruise technical instructions and operations manual came out emphasizing that they and the cruise lines are continuing to work with the CDC and share a common goal of a safe and successful restart.  Far as I can see, Frank Del Rio is on a one-man complaining campaign.  His time would be better spent talking with the CDC about his concerns instead of airing them on national television.  But that's his gig.

[NMTraveller]

16 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Which cruise lines aren't happy besides NCLH who doesn't even have a bookable cruise out of Florida until September?

There is bookable and there is bankrolling the cruise lines until they get back to cruising.

 

I would suppose that all of them are not happy with the latest guidance that came out.  It is difficult to call such rules a vacation or to sell cruises with such draconian rules.  NCLH is vocal and points out all of the sausage making and bureaucracy in the process.  The other lines are more muted.  I suspect it is because they are afraid of retribution.

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by NMTraveller

[harkinmr]

24 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

The cruise lines are talking and working with the CDC.  They don't seem to be very happy.

 

Just don't eat the soup.  It will make your mask a mess in the dining room.  

 

Suppose that the planets align,  miracles happen, and the massive bureacracy is conquered.  Will the rules be such that anyone will want to cruise?

 

I for one will not want to wear a mask on the pool deck outside.  I won't cruise.

Sounds to me like you don't want the cruise lines to work with the CDC.  "Massive bureaucracy" to be conquered?  By whom?  Exactly how do you think this is all going to work out?  Best not hope for some sort of legal resolution, because either way that goes it will be MONTHS before that's resolved.

[markeb]

3 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

I suspect it is because they are afraid of retribution.

I suspect it’s because they’re finally working the process. Which is designed to protect their deliberations and propriety information. And if they don’t get on it, whatever precedent NCK creates will be the precedent.  

[NMTraveller]

14 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Sounds to me like you don't want the cruise lines to work with the CDC.  "Massive bureaucracy" to be conquered?  By whom?  Exactly how do you think this is all going to work out?  Best not hope for some sort of legal resolution, because either way that goes it will be MONTHS before that's resolved.

I would prefer them to work with the CDC if possible.  However the CDCs latest masking requirements while outside at the pool are draconian.  I don't see the CDC as being reasonable at this point in time.  Or putting a mask back on while waiting for desert.  

Edited May 10, 2021 by NMTraveller

[harkinmr]

Just now, NMTraveller said:

I would prefer them to work with the CDC if possible.  However the CDCs latest masking requirements while outside at the pool are draconian.  I don't see the CDC as being reasonable at this point in time.  Or putting a mask back on while waiting for desert.

You have misinterpreted the masking rule for eating and drinking periods.  It does not mean what Frank Del Rio has proclaimed.  Wearing a mask outside by the pool may end up being a rule for unvaccinated cruises, but could very well be changed by the CDC for those lines that commit to vaccinated sailings.  So far only one line has done that. NCL.

[markeb]

4 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

I would prefer them to work with the CDC if possible.  However the CDCs latest masking requirements while outside at the pool are draconian.  I don't see the CDC as being reasonable at this point in time.  Or putting a mask back on while waiting for desert.  

The masking “rule” is a simple reiteration of the existing public conveyance mask rule. And Del Rio chose to interpret it in the most outrageous fashion possible. For publicity purposes. And since no one is sailing, it’s irrelevant anyway. It’s a hyperventilation exercise in futility on CC. 
 

Let’s see if the base mask rule doesn’t change in the next 30 days or so. The CDC has to revoke or update the overall rule to change the cruise guidance. They’re arguably not severable in the current form. 

[NMTraveller]

4 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

You have misinterpreted the masking rule for eating and drinking periods.  It does not mean what Frank Del Rio has proclaimed.  Wearing a mask outside by the pool may end up being a rule for unvaccinated cruises, but could very well be changed by the CDC for those lines that commit to vaccinated sailings.  So far only one line has done that. NCL.

Well if the CEO of a cruise line with a team of lawyers does not understand the latest document that the CDC put out, who does?

 

This could be changed, that could be changed.  Blah blah blah.

 

We can only comment on what documents we have at this point in time.  

 

Perhaps the CDC should have waited until the cruise lines submitted their paperwork?  Vs confusing the heck out of everyone.

 

You can argue with all of the newpapers if you want.  I will take their news over someone on social media.

[NMTraveller]

1 minute ago, markeb said:

The masking “rule” is a simple reiteration of the existing public conveyance mask rule. And Del Rio chose to interpret it in the most outrageous fashion possible. For publicity purposes. And since no one is sailing, it’s irrelevant anyway. It’s a hyperventilation exercise in futility on CC. 
 

Del Rio and the national newspapers.

[kirtihk]

26 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Sounds to me like you don't want the cruise lines to work with the CDC.  "Massive bureaucracy" to be conquered?  By whom?  Exactly how do you think this is all going to work out?  Best not hope for some sort of legal resolution, because either way that goes it will be MONTHS before that's resolved.

Still would be much less than with current beautiful marvel generous propositions.

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, NMTraveller said:

Well if the CEO of a cruise line with a team of lawyers does not understand the latest document that the CDC put out, who does?

 

This could be changed, that could be changed.  Blah blah blah.

 

We can only comment on what documents we have at this point in time.  

 

Perhaps the CDC should have waited until the cruise lines submitted their paperwork?  Vs confusing the heck out of everyone.

 

You can argue with all of the newpapers if you want.  I will take their news over someone on social media.

And the "documents" do not say what Del Rio says they do.  His assessment is hyperbole for the masses.  If they were at all curious or concerned about what the meaning was, they would have been better served talking with the CDC.

 

You don't have to believe me or anyone else.  Believe what you want and continue to complain about it.  The CDC doesn't read CC and could likely care less whether cruisers want to wear masks.  Take a cruise outside the US.  But you're in for a surprise.  There are going to be masking mandates on all cruises outside the US as well.  Bank on it.  

[nocl]

2 hours ago, jagoffee said:

I am curious and I know you have a lot of knowledge in this area. I am really trying to see both sides of the argument, but I am growing increasing disappointed in the CDC. I have read all the various posts and positions on these topics. 

 

You are saying that if the vaccine had full FDA approval that the CDC would not be making it a requirement for at least a defined age group? 

Are  you also saying that the CDC is not restriction by law from making the vaccine mandatory?

 

The CDC is  pushing the responsibility and resultant liability for the decision  of who should be vaccinated and how it will be confirmed  to every single different cruise line and state?

 

 

 

From reading your posts I believe that you are a strong supporter of the CDC’s past and current approach to cruising.  I appreciate your assistance gaining a better understanding.  I do necessarily expect that I will ever share your option, I certainly appreciate you answering my questions.  
 

 

Thanks

From my experience at FDA one issue that a regulatory authority runs into is if the require a single solution if multiple solutions are possible. The CDC has stated their requirements in a technical document. But they have not dictated a single solution. Instead they have made vaccination an option.  The cruise lines could require vaccination and have substantial support under previous practice and law. However they could also choose to go the non vaccination route in line.

 

if the CDC required  vaccination as the only solution I am pretty sure that a cruise line would have a good chance to win that the requirements are overly restrictive by dictating a single solution when the goal can be met in alternative ways.

[nocl]

25 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

Well if the CEO of a cruise line with a team of lawyers does not understand the latest document that the CDC put out, who does?

 

This could be changed, that could be changed.  Blah blah blah.

 

We can only comment on what documents we have at this point in time.  

 

Perhaps the CDC should have waited until the cruise lines submitted their paperwork?  Vs confusing the heck out of everyone.

 

You can argue with all of the newpapers if you want.  I will take their news over someone on social media.

the CEO and his attorneys certainly understand what the requirement it.

 

However they also have a PR agenda, a lobbying agenda and if recent reports are correct in discussions about requirements with vaccination required.

 

Those agendas would not be served by him stating that the requirement is e same as has been required when inside sining has been allowed for months.

 

better for those agendas to take the extreme interpretation about how unreasonable the rules are. Onw seldom wins a negotiation by saying the other sides position is reasonable.

[NMTraveller]

22 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

And the "documents" do not say what Del Rio says they do.  His assessment is hyperbole for the masses.  If they were at all curious or concerned about what the meaning was, they would have been better served talking with the CDC.

 

You don't have to believe me or anyone else.  Believe what you want and continue to complain about it.  The CDC doesn't read CC and could likely care less whether cruisers want to wear masks.  Take a cruise outside the US.  But you're in for a surprise.  There are going to be masking mandates on all cruises outside the US as well.  Bank on it.  

The CDC does read the national newspapers though.