Official: Mediation in lawsuit against federal gov., CDC over cruising shutdown has failed

[songbird1329]

 And there's this.  

 

 

 

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-bz-florida-vs-cdc-cruise-lawsuit-alaska-wrinkle-20210603-flm3ng54cngabowbdbug7f43yy-story.html

 

 

[Tippyton]

3 minutes ago, songbird1329 said:

 And there's this.  

 

 

 

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-bz-florida-vs-cdc-cruise-lawsuit-alaska-wrinkle-20210603-flm3ng54cngabowbdbug7f43yy-story.html

 

 

Now, from the You-Can't-Have-It-Both-Ways Department.....

 

CDC is in a jam.  Threatening Alaska cruises because FL wins a lawsuit demonstrates the capriciousness and how arbitrary the rules are.  Bring in the circular firing squad.

[Pratique]

3 minutes ago, songbird1329 said:

 And there's this.  

 

 

 

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-bz-florida-vs-cdc-cruise-lawsuit-alaska-wrinkle-20210603-flm3ng54cngabowbdbug7f43yy-story.html

 

 

Some folks watch their “stories” on daytime tv. We’ve got something even better here. Get central casting on the horn, we need some more talent to fill out the backstory.

[songbird1329]

53 minutes ago, Tippyton said:

Now, from the You-Can't-Have-It-Both-Ways Department.....

 

CDC is in a jam.  Threatening Alaska cruises because FL wins a lawsuit demonstrates the capriciousness and how arbitrary the rules are.  Bring in the circular firing squad.

It’s Florida that’s in the jam.

 

If push your anti vax law, you risk losing cruises.  The only way to keep cruises and keep your anti vax law is to void the CSO.

 

But Congress passed ATRA based on the CSO.  Without the CSO, cruises can’t sail to Alaska.  So you throw Alaska under the bus to save your own cruise industry and your anti vax law.

 

Most of the cruise lines and most of the prospective passengers support requiring proof of vaccination to cruise, but there’s a law in Florida...

 

I’ve read most of the papers filed with the court.  I’m no expert, but I suspect the CDC will prevail.  The fact that the cruise lines have negotiated with the CDC and they’re getting ready to sail this summer really knocks the wind out of the motion for a preliminary injunction.  
 

if there are no cruises out of Florida this summer, it will be a self inflicted wound.

[songbird1329]

Meanwhile, the CDC has approved cruises in other states...I heard Bayonne will be opening for cruising soon ...

[PhoenixCruiser]

One step closer for the cruise lines to leave Florida.

[Justmekaren918]

U'll realize Vision is calling Bermuda home & Bahamas are also becoming a starting point. Caribbean possibly soon as well. Welcome to FL, who by the way needs the cruise industry $$$$$! Threats have been made to leave FL. Not a clue how those trial cruises will actually run out of FL with Desantis no vax passport,  when they will be required. Yet the ships are coming back in droves 5 a day in Miami & Disney parked right outside of 2 ports, trying to gear up! The rest in Co. groups just in Intl. water! I'm sure the cruise co.'s are more than fine to use other states to get sailing again & if you want to partake you will have to of had a Vax! That's the bottom line! FL is going to loose this battle with Desantis law, either they'll work around like it doesn't exist, or start from other ports. I wouldn't book those plane tickets yet! 

[livingonthebeach]

The pressure is on in the form of three Broward county mayors' letters to our governor urging him to back off the vaccine requirement ban for cruise lines.  Miami-Dade to follow.  In the letter:

 

"We know that you are a strong conservative that normally wants to let businesses operate without over-burdensome government regulations. The private sector cruise industry wants to be able to assure their passengers that the crew and their fellow passengers are vaccinated. The industry believes that without this requirement, passengers will not cruise," the letter read."

[chengkp75]

The main argument in the case is whether the CDC has the authority to set conditions on granting "free pratique", or not, as that is what the CSO is, a set of conditions for "free pratique".  That is the ability to enter US waters and operate in US waters (and US navigable waters, right up to the dock, are federal jurisdiction) without a quarantine or a full health/sanitation inspection every time the ship enters US waters.  If the judge rules that the CSO is illegal, this invalidates the CDC's mandate as the sole agency able to grant "free pratique", and therefore, all prior requirements for "pratique" would be considered illegal as well, such as the VSP.  What agency would then be responsible for granting health clearance?  Without health clearance, the USCG will not grant entry into any US port, for any ship.  If the judge rules that some of the CSO is unjustified, then that is another thing, but Florida is petitioning for the entire CSO to be dropped.  The vaccine thing is a secondary argument, since the CDC is not requiring vaccines, and only put that forward as an option that the cruise lines requested.

[Ocean Boy]

17 hours ago, jrapps said:

Interesting..is your perspective that FL has all the cards and was expecting the CDC to fold, or the other way around? I think neither are true. I don't think the CDC is being petulant at all (or no more petualt than FL is being), and are not doing this just because they "say so". If that were the case, we wouldn't have seen any movement on the CSO. Are they perfect? Of course not, it's a hot mess. But people are trying to play victim and looking for an "enemy" to fight.

 

There was no movement in the CSO for months. The CDC only started evolving  on the CSO as a means to save face once their credibility came more and more into question.  However, they waited too long. Their credibility is shot.

 

The CDC acted rhis way with the CSO , they did it with their masking guidance, they did it with their distancing guidelines, they did it on multiple issues.  The CDC worshippers here did not, and some still don't, want to see what I have said for a long time. They had power over the cruise industry and they abused their position under the guise of following the science and being cautious.  I am not saying that oversight in the industry is nit goid or unneeded but what was done to the cruise industry is disgusting. And anyone who is more that a one hit wonder when it comes to cruising knows it. 

[Tippyton]

8 hours ago, songbird1329 said:

It’s Florida that’s in the jam.

 

If push your anti vax law, you risk losing cruises.  The only way to keep cruises and keep your anti vax law is to void the CSO.

 

But Congress passed ATRA based on the CSO.  Without the CSO, cruises can’t sail to Alaska.  So you throw Alaska under the bus to save your own cruise industry and your anti vax law.

 

Most of the cruise lines and most of the prospective passengers support requiring proof of vaccination to cruise, but there’s a law in Florida...

 

I’ve read most of the papers filed with the court.  I’m no expert, but I suspect the CDC will prevail.  The fact that the cruise lines have negotiated with the CDC and they’re getting ready to sail this summer really knocks the wind out of the motion for a preliminary injunction.  
 

if there are no cruises out of Florida this summer, it will be a self inflicted wound.

Certainly one way of looking at this.

 

  I see the CDC having to defend their flanks with different and conflicting arguments.  Outcome 1 has 2 casualties- Alaska and what's left of any CDC teeth.  Outcome 2 has one casualty - the CDC.  Outcome 3, a nothing-changes standoff, Florida is the only casualty but they were already hurt - this was an Audie Murphy move by DeSantis.  The cruise lines have been the cannon fodder the whole time.

[livingonthebeach]

8 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The main argument in the case is whether the CDC has the authority to set conditions on granting "free pratique", or not, as that is what the CSO is, a set of conditions for "free pratique".  That is the ability to enter US waters and operate in US waters (and US navigable waters, right up to the dock, are federal jurisdiction) without a quarantine or a full health/sanitation inspection every time the ship enters US waters.  If the judge rules that the CSO is illegal, this invalidates the CDC's mandate as the sole agency able to grant "free pratique", and therefore, all prior requirements for "pratique" would be considered illegal as well, such as the VSP.  What agency would then be responsible for granting health clearance?  Without health clearance, the USCG will not grant entry into any US port, for any ship.  If the judge rules that some of the CSO is unjustified, then that is another thing, but Florida is petitioning for the entire CSO to be dropped.  The vaccine thing is a secondary argument, since the CDC is not requiring vaccines, and only put that forward as an option that the cruise lines requested.

 

I think if Florida would have come to the table asking for some (as you say) of the CSO to be modified, instead of throwing it out completely, the results would have been more promising.  To create an impasse by wanting to have it all (Florida) does not make for good outcomes. 

[Pratique]

13 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The main argument in the case is whether the CDC has the authority to set conditions on granting "free pratique", or not, as that is what the CSO is, a set of conditions for "free pratique".  That is the ability to enter US waters and operate in US waters (and US navigable waters, right up to the dock, are federal jurisdiction) without a quarantine or a full health/sanitation inspection every time the ship enters US waters.  If the judge rules that the CSO is illegal, this invalidates the CDC's mandate as the sole agency able to grant "free pratique", and therefore, all prior requirements for "pratique" would be considered illegal as well, such as the VSP.  What agency would then be responsible for granting health clearance?  Without health clearance, the USCG will not grant entry into any US port, for any ship.  If the judge rules that some of the CSO is unjustified, then that is another thing, but Florida is petitioning for the entire CSO to be dropped.  The vaccine thing is a secondary argument, since the CDC is not requiring vaccines, and only put that forward as an option that the cruise lines requested.

I suspect that any ruling would be limited to the order itself. CDC could just create a new order that avoids the issues identified by the court.

[Tippyton]

12 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

There was no movement in the CSO for months. The CDC only started evolving  on the CSO as a means to save face once their credibility came more and more into question.  However, they waited too long. Their credibility is shot.

 

The CDC acted rhis way with the CSO , they did it with their masking guidance, they did it with their distancing guidelines, they did it on multiple issues.  The CDC worshippers here did not, and some still don't, want to see what I have said for a long time. They had power over the cruise industry and they abused their position under the guise of following the science and being cautious.  I am not saying that oversight in the industry is nit goid or unneeded but what was done to the cruise industry is disgusting. And anyone who is more that a one hit wonder when it comes to cruising knows it. 

Nailed it.

[livingonthebeach]

2 minutes ago, Pratique said:

I suspect that any ruling would be limited to the order itself. CDC could just create a new order that avoids the issues identified by the court.

 

But if the current CSO is deemed unlawful, wouldn't that set a precedent for similar new orders?  Seems like a recipe for unending litigation. 

[boatseller]

7 hours ago, PhoenixCruiser said:

One step closer for the cruise lines to leave Florida.

They were already leaving because of the CDC.  Bahamas, DR, Jamaica...how quickly we forget when it's suits the narrative.

[cruisegus]

with the approval of dozens of ships for test sailing, the case for Florida to overturn the CSO gets weaker every day.  The CDC can now say they have a plan and this plan is working, they are well on their way to getting the cruise industry up and running in a safe an effective manner.  The abundance of the approvals for test sailings also makes it much harder on any effort to overturn or change the Florida law banning vaccine passports for cruise ships and with the threat of Texas following suit, that will push the industry to the new norm of putting ships back in service via test cruises.

What I am waiting to see is how fast CDC turns around the approval to sail after these first few test cruises and what if any old standards they intend to modify or eliminate (ie masks required indoors).

[boatseller]

32 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

If the judge rules that the CSO is illegal, this invalidates the CDC's mandate as the sole agency able to grant "free pratique", and therefore, all prior requirements for "pratique" would be considered illegal as well, such as the VSP.  What agency would then be responsible for granting health clearance?  Without health clearance, the USCG will not grant entry into any US port, for any ship.

Is that really the case?  Invalidating the NSO/CSO would just reset things to March(?) 2020.  I didn't see anywhere in the filings (maybe I missed it, I'm not used to reading legal docs) about challenging VSP.

 

Health clearence.  The States are perfectly capable of administering this.  And let's be honest, it's mostly compliance paperwork done by companies.  I don't recall any 'surprise inspection' resulting in actual downtime for the ship.

 

Monday will one year since Florida parks opened and we've handled it just fine.  And remember, State health departments handle a lot more than the CDC, no reason not to add cruise ships to that list.  Beyond the immedite scope, but I want to see that happen.

[boatseller]

3 minutes ago, cruisegus said:

with the approval of dozens of ships for test sailing, the case for Florida to overturn the CSO gets weaker every day.  The CDC can now say they have a plan and this plan is working

That only started happening after the States announced legal action.  The CDC is just trying to save face and give the appearence they're doing something.

 

In another thread, I commented on some of the more absurd parts of the test guidance, making the case that the scheme is designed to succeed, regardless of the outcome.  Meaning, no matter what happens on the ship, it will pass, even if we get literal, actual zombies disembarking because there is no zombie threshold.

 

When you ignore data, you can pick the data you want to use.

[exm]

I wish we could leave politics out of here. I get, if you're a Democrat you don't like DeSantis. Fact is that as of now it's not DeSantis blocking cruises from Florida. The lawsuit we're talking about will do away with all restrictions including those unnecessary and ridiculous test cruises. Then it will become relevant how to deal with DeSantis' anti-vaccine card mandate.

 

I have a think or two to say about Democratic Governors and their handling of Covid, but I'm leaving that out of a cruise forum. It would be great if you guys can leave politics out of here also.

Edited June 4, 2021 by exm

[boatseller]

40 minutes ago, Pratique said:

I suspect that any ruling would be limited to the order itself. CDC could just create a new order that avoids the issues identified by the court.

I would love to see them try.  I don't think the Judge would be too happy with such flagrant contempt.

 

Especially if the order was based on the CDC not following procedures.  Sure, they can try again following the process, but by then it will be moot.  Probably one of the State's strategies.

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, boatseller said:

Is that really the case?  Invalidating the NSO/CSO would just reset things to March(?) 2020.  I didn't see anywhere in the filings (maybe I missed it, I'm not used to reading legal docs) about challenging VSP.

 

Health clearence.  The States are perfectly capable of administering this.  And let's be honest, it's mostly compliance paperwork done by companies.  I don't recall any 'surprise inspection' resulting in actual downtime for the ship.

 

Monday will one year since Florida parks opened and we've handled it just fine.  And remember, State health departments handle a lot more than the CDC, no reason not to add cruise ships to that list.  Beyond the immedite scope, but I want to see that happen.

No, there is no direct challenge to the VSP, but if the CDC is told they don't have the authority to set requirements for "free pratique", which is what the CSO is, then they don't have the authority to set the VSP.

 

Except that the health clearance is a federal jurisdiction, as set forth by the Constitution, since this involves entering the country, as well as all navigable waters being federal jurisdiction, also as outlined by the Constitution.

 

There is no downtime for a health inspection, since the cruise ships agree to follow the VSP, but if they did not, then the CDC and USCG could require a quarantine or health inspection each and every time a vessel enters the US (which is what used to happen, you flew the yellow "Quebec" signal flag that you were "requesting free pratique" and were in quarantine until such time as health inspectors came to the ship, granted pratique, and the ship was allowed to continue on its way.  The electronic forms of this nowadays is done prior to the vessel actually entering US waters, and eliminates the actual boarding of a vessel, but if there is a problem with the electronic request for clearance, then the ship can still be held in quarantine, and boarded by health officials.

 

And, if states are allowed to regulate international and interstate entry regulations, first you would likely have 50 sets of these regulations, and secondly, you might as well eliminate CBP and the USCG as well, and rely on state agencies for everything.

 

 

[Jimbo]

20 minutes ago, boatseller said:

Florida parks opened and we've handled it just fine.  

Parks and cruiseships are MUCH different .

[cruisegus]

12 minutes ago, boatseller said:

That only started happening after the States announced legal action.  The CDC is just trying to save face and give the appearence they're doing something.

 

Agree that CDC only start moving after the law suit and i said months ago only leagal action would move things along.

 

But even if we don't like the CDC does have a plan of which the majority make sense if you are going to sail without a fully vaccinated load.  Even with the vaccinated load the most important part of the CDC's plan is the Port / Local Health Agreements.

 

Needless to say soon we will ALL have an option to resume sailing

 

The CDC will renew the CSO in November with modifications, bank on it.

[Pratique]

13 minutes ago, boatseller said:

I would love to see them try.  I don't think the Judge would be too happy with such flagrant contempt.

 

Especially if the order was based on the CDC not following procedures.  Sure, they can try again following the process, but by then it will be moot.  Probably one of the State's strategies.

You wait and see, I will be right about this. If the judge rules that the CSO exceeds the CDC's authority, he will have to explain why. That will be a roadmap for crafting a new order. CDC has statutory authority, the only question is how far that authority extends. The judge won't rule the statute unlawful because that isn't being challenged.