Official: Mediation in lawsuit against federal gov., CDC over cruising shutdown has failed

[exm]

1 hour ago, jrapps said:

You know when my kids do something wrong, and then start apologizing by saying "I'm sorry, but..." and then give every excuses to why they're not actually sorry it's not a real apology.

 

Likewise when you say I wish people would just leave politics out of it, and then in the same post, bring up politics it rings hollow. Your defense of DeSantis (and not so subtle dig at Democratic Governors) in the situation is in fact a political statement, and what's worse you say "the fact is" instead of "your opinion is"

 

The fact is that whether your registered Republican Democrat or Independent does not automatically guarantee you to agreeing or disagreeing with everything a politician says and does. It's their actions that matter to a lot of us.

 

Your opinion is that DeSantis is not blocking cruises. I would counter that my opinion is that at this particular moment in time DeSantis is doing more to get in the way of cruises starting as quickly and safely as possible. If he had never started down this ridiculous vaccine passport issue, we might actually have cruise ships sailing already. The cruise lines have felt stuck in the middle being jerked around by both sides and have had to delay their implementation plans trying to figure out all of this legal crap. Note I am not absolving the CDC of blame in this situation. But it seems like most people here blame either the CDC or DeSantis. If you would ask me who is responsible for getting in the way of cruising prior to mid-April, my opinion would have been the CDC was almost completely responsible. Ron has taken that title away from them.

 

The other irony of the situation is that cruise lines are in the process of getting going. Even if the entire CSO was repealed tomorrow, I don't think it would have an appreciable difference in how fast the lines can get going because they still need to completely staff up their ships, retrain employees, stock supplies, etc. These things take time which is why we're not seeing test cruises happening now but rather several weeks to month from now. It also takes time to vaccinate your crew, And again in my opinion is that the lines would be vaccinating their entire crew even without a CSO in place. They don't want a breakout on a ship anymore than we do.

 

Hopefully the judge will rule soon, but for those looking to this ruling has the magic kick in the pants to get cruising started faster I just don't see it happening. The only relevant issue is how to deal with DeSantis' anti-vaccine card mandate (IMO)

 

Without DeSantis and this lawsuit there wouldn't be anything sailing this summer. In my opinion he and this lawsuit definitely forced CDC to expedite the process. So yes, DeSantis is helpful. However, I do disagree with his law to block vaccination status.

[boatseller]

3 minutes ago, Pratique said:

The judge does have to explain why so his reasoning can be evaluated on appeal.

Ug, yes, that one of the reasons....ayayay!

[Pratique]

13 minutes ago, boatseller said:

And related to communicable diseases, they are especially not that different.  In practice, theme park are worse.  Yet the CDC doesn't seem to care.

It's not that they don't care, I think that it's because they don't have federal jurisdiction over most parks, museums, etc. They have issued guidance for those too. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/parks-rec/amusement-park-carnival.html

 

7 minutes ago, jrapps said:

Sure, they all have lines, and food, and water attractions. You are talking about entertainment experience, not health & safety. 

The only place that ever truly freaked me out was the children's museum in Orange County California. I could not wash my hands enough after visiting that place with my nieces.

[kearney]

4 minutes ago, boatseller said:

If someone requires fully vax'd to feel comfortable, they should not be cruising, or doing much of anything.

 

There's still plenty of other stuff hanging around out there that are just as bad as covid or world for most people.

You misunderstand. I am comfortable hanging with unvaccinated... but I don't want to cruise if I have to mask and socially distance...and I envision a situation where we still need to socially distance and mask because we don't know who is or who is not vaccinated... there are still businesses where you need to mask and socially distance despite being vaccinated because they don't know who is and who is not... I don't want to deal with that on vacation. DH needs a scooter and I envision 4 people in an elevator and it taking a half hour for him to get to the next floor...  Yes I know that the vaccinated have far far less to be concerned about...but that is not my issue... 

[WhaleTailFlCruiser]

In my humble opinion I think Florida filed this suit to get the CDC ass into gear given they seemingly change their minds on a CSO Almost every other day with new guidance ext. Before the lawsuit we were essentially at a standstill and the Cruise lines as a whole were not getting anywhere with the CDC now all of a sudden we "May" have sailing by July? 

[jrapps]

4 minutes ago, boatseller said:

Different people doesn't matter.  If flu prevelance is 10%, then 10% of the people you encounter are statistically carriers.  Doesn't matter if it's the same people or 10 different people.

Yes, but that ONE person who has the flu, I am much more likely to catch it from him if I run into him over and over again vs just passing by him for a few seconds on one day of a theme park vacation. The odds of be being in that persons vicinity go up, and thus the odds of me catching the flu from him go up.

 

Also, when I am at a theme park, I spend a much larger percentage of my time outdoors than I do when on a cruise. At a theme park, I am outdoors for 60-70% of the trip. On a cruise, I am maybe outdoors for 30-40%.

 

All I am saying is they are different experiences, and can not be directly compared to one another when determining the risk factor for transmission of viruses. Similarities in certain situations of course, but as a whole they are different enough that I see why they get different rules.

[Pratique]

3 minutes ago, WhaleTailFlCruiser said:

In my humble opinion I think Florida filed this suit to get the CDC ass into gear given they seemingly change their minds on a CSO Almost every other day with new guidance ext. Before the lawsuit we were essentially at a standstill and the Cruise lines as a whole were not getting anywhere with the CDC now all of a sudden we "May" have sailing by July? 

Perhaps, but how hard did the state try to work with CDC before hauling them into court?

[boatseller]

Just now, Pratique said:

It's not that they don't care, I think that it's because they don't have federal jurisdiction over most parks, museums, etc. They have issued guidance for those too. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/parks-rec/amusement-park-carnival.html

No, they don't care.  I understand this may be a fundamental difference between us, but these are Federal Bureaucrats, basically failures in the real economy.

 

If they actually cared about people, they would have at least tried to use some of the inter state authority to limit travel for 'large venue' visitors or some other nonsense.  Heck, they should have at least tried to issue a no-fly-order.  Nope, too much political opposition on that and it wasn't worth their time.

 

The only thing these bureaucrats care about is their funding and headcount.  They can be complete failures at their mission so long as they have their happy hour bragging rights.

 

There are too many adverse consequences the CDC is just ignoring, or even caused, to claim they care about anyone other than themselves (suicides, delayed treatment, mental trauma).  Or they're just too focused on their 'mission' to even notice.  

 

We're now learning how corrupt and compromised they are, don't think for a second Tony is the only one who was hiding the truth, waiting for a big payout.  I think we shold be commending the cruise CEO's for not playing the $$$ game.  In case that's too subtle, yes, I'm saying they were waiting for a bribe.  The FAA should be even more safety focused and it didn't stop them.

[boatseller]

17 minutes ago, jrapps said:

Yes, but that ONE person who has the flu, I am much more likely to catch it from him if I run into him over and over again vs just passing by him for a few seconds on one day of a theme park vacation. The odds of be being in that persons vicinity go up, and thus the odds of me catching the flu from him go up.

 

Also, when I am at a theme park, I spend a much larger percentage of my time outdoors than I do when on a cruise. At a theme park, I am outdoors for 60-70% of the trip. On a cruise, I am maybe outdoors for 30-40%.

 

All I am saying is they are different experiences, and can not be directly compared to one another when determining the risk factor for transmission of viruses. Similarities in certain situations of course, but as a whole they are different enough that I see why they get different rules.

No, you missed my point.  10% is 10% regardless of the individual persons.

 

You run into Jim 3 times on a ship, but Mary, Jody and Kelly in a park.  Same difference.

 

Hmm...that's in interesting video idea, how much time do you spend in/out doors at a park.  At Magic Kingdom or Universal Studios, it could be 50/50.  But even then, it's easier to find indoor low density spaces on any cruise ship than in any park.  Add the resorts and it's even.

[cruisegus]

37 minutes ago, boatseller said:

If someone requires fully vax'd to feel comfortable, they should not be cruising, or doing much of anything.

 

There's still plenty of other stuff hanging around out there that are just as bad as covid or world for most people.

actually I disagree.  It is the other way around, those that are un-vacinated are the one that should be staying home and not be going anywhere as they pose a health threat not only to themselves but to the rest of the public.

[grandgeezer]

12 hours ago, Tippyton said:

Now, from the You-Can't-Have-It-Both-Ways Department.....

 

CDC is in a jam.  Threatening Alaska cruises because FL wins a lawsuit demonstrates the capriciousness and how arbitrary the rules are.  Bring in the circular firing squad.

They didn't threaten anybody or any thing, they just pointed out the facts.

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, grandgeezer said:

They didn't threaten anybody or any thing, they just pointed out the facts.

To some pointing out the facts is a threat.  The poster's assertion is ridiculous.  The Alaska legislation ties directly into the CSO.  Without a Conditional Sail Certificate the Alaska cruises will be going nowhere unless the legislation is changed and the chance of that happening is slim to none at this point.  

[xpcdoojk]

18 hours ago, Pratique said:

A few months ago (pre-vaccine) I posted here that I thought the cruise industry was being held to an entirely different standard than any other travel sector (especially airlines), and I was chided for being naïve about the unique risks posed by cruise ships. Oh they are petri dishes. Oh they are far away from hospitals. Etc. Well that was then... Now it seems the tide has turned. It is what it is. Either cruising is special or it isn't. Or maybe it's not so black and white. I don't know anymore, but I do believe with all of the sanitation that I would rather be on a ship than just about anywhere else.

They clearly are.  When restaurants and movie theaters can open it is impossible to see it any other way.

 

The NSO is just wrong from a logic point of view.  What happens when it becomes a legal matter?  A complete mess and waste of resources.  

 

We are so far past it having any logical existence.  Fighting over legal nuances is a waste of time.

 

 

[boatseller]

8 minutes ago, cruisegus said:

actually I disagree.  It is the other way around, those that are un-vacinated are the one that should be staying home and not be going anywhere as they pose a health threat not only to themselves but to the rest of the public.

Well, doesn't work like that and is quite myopic.  There are many, many more things out there you can get that are worse than covid and no vax.  An average person's reaction to noro will be 100 times worse than covid.

 

I guess you better not sail again, ever.  

[Pratique]

30 minutes ago, boatseller said:

If they actually cared about people, they would have at least tried to use some of the inter state authority to limit travel for 'large venue' visitors or some other nonsense.  Heck, they should have at least tried to issue a no-fly-order.

You would have complained if they did.

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, Pratique said:

You would have complained if they did.

Or brought up how the eviction moratorium was "bureaucratic overreach".

[Pratique]

10 minutes ago, xpcdoojk said:

We are so far past it having any logical existence.  Fighting over legal nuances is a waste of time.

If that was so, and I'm not saying it isn't, then the governor should have picked up the phone and done something other than file a lawsuit. Every governor has the White House on speed dial. Every senator has the cabinet on speed dial. I know Rubio and Scott made a half-hearted attempt at doing something. What else could/should have happened?

[broberts]

3 minutes ago, boatseller said:

Well, doesn't work like that and is quite myopic.  There are many, many more things out there you can get that are worse than covid and no vax.  An average person's reaction to noro will be 100 times worse than covid.

 

I guess you better not sail again, ever.  

 

Talk about myopia. 🙄

[boatseller]

4 minutes ago, Pratique said:

You would have complained if they did.

Umm....yes.  Of course.  Because it would haven been stupid and not based on any data.

 

But I guess you either missed or don't care that they didn't even try.  So much for 'public safety'.

[Janet524]

15 minutes ago, boatseller said:

Well, doesn't work like that and is quite myopic.  There are many, many more things out there you can get that are worse than covid and no vax.  An average person's reaction to noro will be 100 times worse than covid.

 

I guess you better not sail again, ever.  

Funny, I don't seem to remember anyone having to be put on a ventilator after contracting noro.  

[xpcdoojk]

17 minutes ago, xpcdoojk said:

They clearly are.  When restaurants and movie theaters can open it is impossible to see it any other way.

 

The NSO is just wrong from a logic point of view.  What happens when it becomes a legal matter?  A complete mess and waste of resources.  

 

We are so far past it having any logical existence.  Fighting over legal nuances is a waste of time.

 

 

Or Hotels, or bowling alleys, or Chuck E Cheese, or Best Buy on Black Friday, or....

 

It is obvious Cruise lines are being treated as a special case, are they?

[boatseller]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Or brought up how the eviction moratorium was "bureaucratic overreach".

As soon as the CARES Act provision expired, it was.  Congress' intent was clear.  They put the time limit.

[Pratique]

 

4 minutes ago, boatseller said:

Umm....yes.  Of course.  Because it would haven been stupid and not based on any data.

 

But I guess you either missed or don't care that they didn't even try.  So much for 'public safety'.

Your blinders are just as effective as mine.

[boatseller]

1 minute ago, Janet524 said:

Funny, I don't seem to remember anyone having to be put on a ventilator after contracting noro.  

Hyperbole aside, asymptomatic noro infections are <10% while asymptomatic covid infections are >80%.

 

Please read my comment more carefully.  Thank you.

[boatseller]

Just now, Pratique said:

Your blinders are just as effective as mine.

Huh?  What blinders?