Judge may not rule before July 1 (FL vs CDC)

[Keys2Heaven]

20 minutes ago, Tippyton said:

The State has its constituency, businesses, revenue, etc. in the game.  CDC may say they have public health in mind but this is no longer supported by the science, but can still hide behind the excuse.  The judge believes there is merit otherwise he would have tossed it.  I thing hes giving the CDC the benefit of the doubt and really doesnt want to rule against them.

Probably true and I think, in this case, the CDC is right in the short term. Let's just hope they lift the CSO by Nov 1 of this year.

I know it sucks for those that have children right now and want to cruise, and I hope cruise lines grant those exemptions so families can sail, but opening the flood gates too soon would be a mistake.

My gut feeling tells me Sept/Oct will be very good to the cruise industry.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Keys2Heaven

[BlerkOne]

5 minutes ago, Tippyton said:

The State has its constituency, businesses, revenue, etc. in the game.  CDC may say they have public health in mind but this is no longer supported by the science, but can still hide behind the excuse.  The judge believes there is merit otherwise he would have tossed it.  I thing hes giving the CDC the benefit of the doubt and really doesnt want to rule against them.

Of course the science supports it. As the data comes in and is analyzed, restrictions are being relaxed.

 

I think the judge bent over backwards trying to allow Florida to save face, and they failed. They will lose.

[jimbo5544]

22 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Jimbo, the cruise lines delayed since the requirements were published in April 2020.  If they had submitted plans, the CDC would not have needed "technical instructions", and the delay involved there.  There never was a "requirement" for "technical instructions", it was stated that the requirements could be revised or amended by further technical instructions, but nothing stopped the lines from submitting plans in the first place.  But, I've said this to you many times over the past year, and you don't want to acknowledge it.

I never said they did not have any responsibility.  I have said this to you many times.  What the CDC really wanted was for cruise lines not to sail.  They wanted that because they really believed that was the best thing.  I get that.  The rest was smoke and mirrors.  We can discuss their (cdc) performance overall if it helps, but we know where we stand on this.  😉 I do like your posts tho.  

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

What completely absurd assertions.  You are correct that injunctive relief ordinarily is granted quickly. However, the fact that it was not should tell you that the arguments by the state for such relief were weak and the judge saw it that way.  He ordered the parties to mediation rather than an immediate denial of injunctive relief in order to spare the state that fate.  
 

Questions of each side were based on the legal arguments and fully appropriate.  You are just unhappy with the fact that a decision was not made immediately in favor of the state. If the state’s case survives any longer they should consider themselves fortunate. 

Refuting the judge did not rule my way so he must be an incompetent idiot argument.🤣

 

I don't think anyone except a few in this newsgroup and maybe the advisors to the Florida governor ever though that the judge was going to grant immediate injunctive relief. And don't forget the cruise lines never sought to become part of these proceedings. That has to say something.

[TNcruising02]

9 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Refuting the judge did not rule my way so he must be an incompetent idiot argument.🤣

 

I don't think anyone except a few in this newsgroup and maybe the advisors to the Florida governor ever though that the judge was going to grant immediate injunctive relief. And don't forget the cruise lines never sought to become part of these proceedings. That has to say something.

In one report, the CEO of Port Canaveral (or someone like that) said that the cruise lines didn't join the suit because they will have to continue dealing with the CDC long into the future.   If anyone thinks the cruise lines wanted to stay closed, then they are in denial.

Edited June 15, 2021 by TNcruising02

[ontheweb]

2 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

In one report, the CEO of Port Canaveral (or someone like that) said that the cruise lines didn't join the suit because they will have to continue dealing with the CDC long into the future.   If anyone thinks the cruise lines wanted to stay closed, then they are in denial.

The cruise lines also have to deal with the government of Florida in the foreseeable future.

 

And the CDC and the cruise lines are now working together to restart cruises from US ports. It is the unbending attitude of the Governor of Florida about asking one's vaccine status by the cruise lines that is making unnecessary complications.

[BlerkOne]

4 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

In one report, the CEO of Port Canaveral (or someone like that) said that the cruise lines didn't join the suit because they will have to continue dealing with the CDC long into the future.   If anyone thinks the cruise lines wanted to stay closed, then they are in denial.

Covid breakouts on ships would close the cruise lines for good.

[TNcruising02]

38 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

The cruise lines also have to deal with the government of Florida in the foreseeable future.

 

And the CDC and the cruise lines are now working together to restart cruises from US ports. It is the unbending attitude of the Governor of Florida about asking one's vaccine status by the cruise lines that is making unnecessary complications.

Do you really think Carnival and Disney both want to sail with 95% vaccinated and have only a 5% allowance for errors and children 12 and under?

[songbird1329]

On 6/12/2021 at 6:03 PM, TNcruising02 said:

Clearly the state of Florida knew they were at an impasse since the judge stated it so soon after he chewed out Florida. It’s obvious. 

The parties went back to the magistrate for a settlement conference AFTER Florida said the mediation was at an impasse.  

[songbird1329]

On 6/13/2021 at 10:24 AM, harkinmr said:

Again from people who lack any understanding of the way court proceedings work. And the “politics” call is nonsense. You do know that this judge was appointed by George HW Bush? He is a Republican. But he is also a learned and respected jurist. But that means nothing to the pack of armchair legal experts amid the peanut gallery. 

Exactly.  Judges have their leanings about how to interpret law, but what they do is follow the law.

[TNcruising02]

8 minutes ago, songbird1329 said:

The parties went back to the magistrate for a settlement conference AFTER Florida said the mediation was at an impasse.  

 

Thanks for the clarification.  This statement made me think it was a leak:

"Judge Merryday confronted the state attorney about the statement released last week saying a mediator in the case had declared it at an impasse. Mediation proceedings are always confidential; the judge, therefore, made it clear that any more leaks from either side will be investigated."

Edited June 15, 2021 by TNcruising02

[firefly333]

30 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

Do you really think Carnival and Disney both want to sail with 95% vaccinated and have only a 5% allowance for errors and children 12 and under?

I backed out of my response ...so tired of ridiculous posts blaming florida and saying cdc is so bending. Not cdc fault, of course not, we are the govt and here to help you. They probably wouldnt go away  now that they found out how much publicity they get off cruiselines. Good fun and games to cdc. 

[TNcruising02]

2 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

I backed out of my response ...so tired of ridiculous posts blaming florida and saying cdc is so bending. Not cdc fault, of course not, we are the govt and here to help you. They probably wouldnt go away  now that they found out how much publicity they get off cruiselines. Good fun and games to cdc. 

I agree with you and really need to learn to ignore the posts because it's useless going over the same arguments. The CDC knows they hold all of the power and they aren't going to let people forget it.  I think they know they can push the cruise lines around.  If they tried to do the same with the airlines, too many people would complain. Anyway, I am vaccinated so I will cruise this summer if it sails.  I feel bad for the ones who have no clue if their family will be able to sail or not.

[firefly333]

19 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

I agree with you and really need to learn to ignore the posts because it's useless going over the same arguments. The CDC knows they hold all of the power and they aren't going to let people forget it.  I think they know they can push the cruise lines around.  If they tried to do the same with the airlines, too many people would complain. Anyway, I am vaccinated so I will cruise this summer if it sails.  I feel bad for the ones who have no clue if their family will be able to sail or not.

If not for the cdc I bet the cruiselines could come up with some alternative like ok, everyone over 12 vaccinated and under 12, ok. 85%, kids are 15%, ..but no matter what someone is unhappy. 

 

Though I wish there was some way of figuring those who had covid and have antibodies into the mixture. 

[Moviela]

2 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Covid breakouts on ships would close the cruise lines for good.

 

That Mr Mason assumes facts not in evidence. People have been cruising for 10,000 years since the first Asians found that wood floats and set off for Polynesia. Albeit not in the same form cruising today has evolved from transportation and food production to a leisure activity. It will continue.

[BlerkOne]

6 minutes ago, Moviela said:

 

That Mr Mason assumes facts not in evidence. People have been cruising for 10,000 years since the first Asians found that wood floats and set off for Polynesia. Albeit not in the same form cruising today has evolved from transportation and food production to a leisure activity. It will continue.

Pleasure cruising is a relatively recent phenomena and currently heavily in debt. A number of cruise lines have gone bankrupt in the past, and don't get bailed out like airlines do 

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, TNcruising02 said:

Do you really think Carnival and Disney both want to sail with 95% vaccinated and have only a 5% allowance for errors and children 12 and under?

I think they want to get started. And then as the Covid crisis fades away return more to normalcy.

 

I do think they want at least at the present time to be able to check if passengers are vaccinated or not.

[Tippyton]

13 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Covid breakouts on ships would close the cruise lines for good.

Let's stop the hyperbole.  There will not be "Covid Breakouts".

[TNcruising02]

Are there even large numbers of unvaccinated people, other than 12 and under, cruising?  It seems to me that people who travel outside of the country would be more likely to get vaccinated.  RCL estimates that 90% of their passengers are vaccinated or plan to be.  Of those few who are unvaccinated, I assume that many have already had covid.

Edited June 15, 2021 by TNcruising02

[ProgRockCruiser]

14 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Covid breakouts on ships would close the cruise lines for good.

 

34 minutes ago, Tippyton said:

Let's stop the hyperbole.  There will not be "Covid Breakouts".

Technically, what Blerk said wasn't hyperbole, if you agree with the "condition->response".  i.e., you said there will not be COVID outbreaks.  But if there were to be one, do you agree that the cruise line industry could be irreparably harmed?

 

If you disagree with the probability of a COVID breakout from ever happening, you could say "that is an overblown hypothetical situation - it will never happen".

 

If you don't agree with Blerk's assessment and you want to call it hyperbole, then you would agree with the possibility of COVID outbreaks, but would challenge the posited result: "COVID outbreaks won't cause the end of cruising for good, it will be a hiccup in operations and probably a minor headache while the papers make noise about it."

 

Hyperbole would be "Covid breakouts on ships would cause the end of civilization as we know it and send us back to the dark ages."

 

IMHO, it is unlikely a complete outbreak will occur (as experienced at the start of COVID), but a minor one will very likely make some headlines and a bunch of "oh no!" reactions - and hopefully it will be well managed and mitigated by the cruise line, and everyone will see there is very little to be concerned about.

 

But I will agree that if a major COVID outbreak were to occur on a cruise line, I suspect the reaction by the general public and health authorities would be extremely dramatic, and could damage the industry for years.

Edited June 15, 2021 by ProgRockCruiser

[Sinbadssailors]

2 hours ago, TNcruising02 said:

Are there even large numbers of unvaccinated people, other than 12 and under, cruising?  It seems to me that people who travel outside of the country would be more likely to get vaccinated.  RCL estimates that 90% of their passengers are vaccinated or plan to be.  Of those few who are unvaccinated, I assume that many have already had covid.

 No amount of common sense will get some people to let go of the idea that it's forever March 2020, convinced that hundreds of unvaccinated passengers will test positive.

And cruising will stop forever.

 

What's more likely to kill cruising is knowing that the numbers of vaxxed/not-vaxxed doesn't matter.

Quarantine is a possibility no matter what.

 

A couple individuals last week, but it could easily be more next time. When cruising starts in the US, what's the threshold 1-1.5%? That's 9 people max on that 600 person limited capacity sailing.

 

 

Of course, that doesn't further the narrative that vaccination is the way back to normal. So, like the no-mask changes on land, hopefully they'll drop testing for asymptomatic vaccinated people onboard, to encourage vaccination.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Sinbadssailors

[BlerkOne]

2 hours ago, Tippyton said:

Let's stop the hyperbole.  There will not be "Covid Breakouts".

Only because the anti-vaxers are being held in check - for now.

 

The variants, especially "D" are concerning. Vaccines, while still effective, are decreasing in effectiveness against the more contagious variants.

 

You can deny, but you can't hide.

[SwordBlazer Cruising]

19 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

It is almost a year since the cruise lines held various covid mitigation conferences. They knew what would be required and still did nothing. Failure. There are no innocents.

I will say with good authority that the CDC was and just up until recently the party that has been tardy, full stop since last year. This is not to say the cruiselines do not have fault, but to understand the inter-government decisions that needed to be made, then you would understand why the CDC does shoulder most of the blame here. Read the federal register.
 

Also Ron Desantis will loose this case. it is almost laughable that he is even going down this road. 

[BlerkOne]

16 minutes ago, SwordBlazer Cruising said:

I will say with good authority that the CDC was and just up until recently the party that has been tardy, full stop since last year. This is not to say the cruiselines do not have fault, but to understand the inter-government decisions that needed to be made, then you would understand why the CDC does shoulder most of the blame here. Read the federal register.
 

Some people are trying to blame the CDC for doing their job. I could speculate on the motives of some of those people. Not only does the CDC not exist in a vacuum, they had a management change, for the better, mid-stream, which is always disruptive. They have made progress, as have the cruise lines in the past few months. There are no innocents.

[SwordBlazer Cruising]

1 minute ago, BlerkOne said:

Some people are trying to blame the CDC for doing their job. I could speculate on the motives of some of those people. Not only does the CDC not exist in a vacuum, they had a management change, for the better, mid-stream, which is always disruptive. They have made progress, as have the cruise lines in the past few months. There are no innocents.

You are correct, there are no innocents. But in this case, to have the finger pointed at 3 publicly traded companies that have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders and say they did nothing, with the exception of incurring almost 100 billion dollars of combined debt is a big stretch.