Carnival Freedom Funnel Fire

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, tidecat said:

FYI the Freedom is "mortgaged" as all of Carnival Corporation's ships are currently pledged as collateral for the current debt facilities.

Typically, in the industry, a ship is individually "mortgaged" for the construction, for a term typically of 10 years, after that, it can be "refinanced" or it can be used as you say, collectively as collateral for corporate debt.  If it is used as collective collateral, then selling the asset (which means "scrapping" to some) becomes more difficult.

[JRG]

17 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Typically, in the industry, a ship is individually "mortgaged" for the construction, for a term typically of 10 years, after that, it can be "refinanced" or it can be used as you say, collectively as collateral for corporate debt.  If it is used as collective collateral, then selling the asset (which means "scrapping" to some) becomes more difficult.

 

As a continuance,  you have the added complexity of like-kind accounting exchanges.   And this is a very very complicated type of business transaction that very few CPA's even get a chance to deal with so it is far, far more compicated than you know.

 

People can associate alot of common misconceptions when you used mortgage in this context,  so yes,  precision in language is preferred.   We call it being brief and concise.

[JRG]

As for the funnel repair.   This looked like a sheet metal job all the way.

 

I was born with a Tinsnip in my hand and if you tell me haven't heard of one in decades you might be correct.

 

A Solid Union Sheetmetal Foreman with a solid crew and a handful of journeymen (greenhorns to you) could have knocked this job our in 72hours if they didn't have to deal with the red-tape.

 

Sheetmetal Union workers don't put up with alot of wasted baloney and they are not scared of the heights of the scaffolds.  

 

On a scale of 1 to 10 this is a 3-4,   for a good Sheetmetal Man. 

 

"We get up early and we work all day,   Get the job done and we like to play"

"All Night Long....All Night Long"

 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by JRG

[JRG]

44 minutes ago, tidecat said:

FYI the Freedom is "mortgaged" as all of Carnival Corporation's ships are currently pledged as collateral for the current debt facilities.

yes you are correct,  but it would be considered a liability (credit) in the wash of all wash-all gl accounting entries when recorded a sale (not a scrap),   as it effetively would pay off the mortgage.

 

p.s.  I can see posters confusing scrapping and selling causing mass confusion in thread.   I think we have the same definition and the ability to use it in right context.

[mkcurran]

14 minutes ago, JRG said:

 

As a continuance,  you have the added complexity of like-kind accounting exchanges.   And this is a very very complicated type of business transaction that very few CPA's even get a chance to deal with so it is far, far more compicated than you know.

 

People can associate alot of common misconceptions when you used mortgage in this context,  so yes,  precision in language is preferred.   We call it being brief and concise.

Mortgage--A finance instrument to obtain money using with a fixed asset or collection of assets used as collateral.

Capitalization--the act of writing assets that are expected to have lives longer than a year onto the books at purchase or build price with the idea that they will be depreciated over the life of assets, usually with a residual or scrap value calculated into the depreciation schedule.

Leasehold improvement--The addition of money/assets to a leased property that have a useful life over one year and need the expense to be depreciated over the useful life.

For clarification purposes, most capital assets are mortgaged or financed in some way. 

Like-kind transactions are neither rare nor hard to handle. For a CPA, doing one is just another Tuesday task.

How ever dealing with clients that think they know accounting is the biggest pain to any CPA.

[JRG]

3 minutes ago, mkcurran said:

How ever dealing with clients that think they know accounting is the biggest pain to any CPA.

We call it client control.   And yes it is a problem for lawyers too.

 

 

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

What happened to the information about the fire damage. Now it it turned into dealing with clients, accounting and lawyers?

[JRG]

4 minutes ago, mkcurran said:

Like-kind transactions are neither rare nor hard to handle. For a CPA, doing one is just another Tuesday task.

 

In the T-account analysis,   does it not really depend on whether it is a gain or loss,  and whether or not the  tax paying entity in enjoying a 'windfall year' and need to offset profits and/, or in this case,   probably the deferred revenue recognized by those of us sailing on FCC's,  which have been languishing on the balance sheet like a load of tuna until ready for market.       CCL is sailing as much as they can this year so without knowing what the true carrying cost is and what the actual repair problems or 'estimate' of future repairs are,  inflations and manpower not helping any,  we don't know what the plan is and they could sail June 11 and change the plan next sailing. 

 

In the corporate game,  we would call it a 'shelf credit' and it would be used judiciously.

 

I guess I just never encountered enough of the like-kind exchanges,  but I remember briefing clients in the engagement process as we worked with high dollar fixed assets in hospitals.

 

For a ship,  you have to envision that they are rolling-over old ships,  and may have been accounting for the the new ships as like-kind exchanges and it may not be your usual Taco Tuesday transaction.

 

 

[jsglow]

3 hours ago, Tom-n-Cheryl said:

 

Carnival should work this to their marketing advantage - offer "limited time only" special ship pins (w/"new" funnel depicted on them)... lol

 

Tom

Gotta go full on merch turning lemons into lemonade. 

[JRG]

4 minutes ago, ALWAYS CRUZIN said:

What happened to the information about the fire damage. Now it it turned into dealing with clients, accounting and lawyers?

 

I liked it better when we were trying to get the aerodynamic funnel to fly.

 

It felt like we were in a remake of  "Flght of the Phoenix" and everybody was going to get strapped to the funnel and make it to safety.

 

My heart is still with cruisers on stand-by and I hope the estimate for 10 days holds up.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

5 minutes ago, JRG said:

 

I liked it better when we were trying to get the aerodynamic funnel to fly.

 

It felt like we were in a remake of  "Flght of the Phoenix" and everybody was going to get strapped to the funnel and make it to safety.

 

My heart is still with cruisers on stand-by and I hope the estimate for 10 days holds up.

They need a model airplane designer. Hard to fine I guess.

[mz-s]

That nonstandard funnel is going to be a reminder of the fire for every cruiser until it is put back as it was, presumably at the next drydock.

[Illbcruzn4life]

1 hour ago, JRG said:

 

Negative.  I have to point out that in your last post you are using Mortgage to describe a revenue-producing asset , which is subject to depreciation which will decrease its NBV (net book value) or carrying cost.     This is like trying to comprare a cruise ship soot fire to a kitchen grease pan fire.    

 

Scrapping can also mean disposal,  or selling the ship.  A revenue generating asset of this type also is subject to LHI (leasehold Improvements) which extend its useful life thereby affecting its NBV.    It may also be subject to like-kind exchanges which make the true NBV difficult for outsiders to understand.

 

This is important because the actual owners of the ship may choose to sell the ship because the net gain or loss is 'economically' more practical than keeping a 15 year ship afloat.    It makes perfect sense for CCL to unload this baby to an eligible suitor.   For us on the outside,   it is REALLY hard to be certain but lets just say the conditions are 'possible' ,   but you have to step away from the forest and trees to see it.

 

Furthermore,   these exceptionally large revenue producing assets are CAPITALIZED,  they are not MORTGAGED.

 

Its always good to have competition,   always good.

 

 

How many years have you been in the cruise industry?

[quattrohead]

2 hours ago, JRG said:

Scrapping can also mean disposal,  or selling the ship

Eh you what ????

Maybe you understand cars better, bit smaller like. If you scrap a car it does not mean you have sold it, right ? (edit to keep it simple for beginners !!! sold for scrap sure)

It means it went to the crusher.

Edited June 8, 2022 by quattrohead

[quattrohead]

1 hour ago, JRG said:

what material the wing is made or,  whether it be aluminum, steel or fiberglass (my guess would be a marine grade galvanized or some thickness)

Did you see the fire ??? Galvanized nothing will burn like that. Fiberglass as already determined.

[Sam Ting]

3 minutes ago, quattrohead said:

Did you see the fire ??? Galvanized nothing will burn like that. Fiberglass as already determined.

I thought it was a loose gasket that went ablaze for some reason.

[quattrohead]

On 6/6/2022 at 8:46 PM, tidecat said:

Courtesy of jwaltcruises on Instagram:

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CeeqYtsLoq4/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

My design check from Carnival is on the way !!!!

[JRG]

21 minutes ago, quattrohead said:

Eh you what ????

Maybe you understand cars better, bit smaller like. If you scrap a car it does not mean you have sold it, right ? (edit to keep it simple for beginners !!! sold for scrap sure)

It means it went to the crusher.

You had this right,   I used scrap and sell too close together in the same sentence,   they are two separate outcomes.  No problem

 

 

[chengkp75]

28 minutes ago, Sam Ting said:

Didn’t someone say the shipyard had a giant mold just laying around and could make a new one lickity split?  I wonder maybe they could not find it amongst the thousands of other molds they must use.

Actually, Sam, if you read real carefully (I know its hard), you'll see that I said they would need to make a temporary wing until they could mold a new one.  And, the mold for the iconic "wing" is Carnival's property, and since they continue to use them, it would not be out of the ordinary for them to keep it, or to have the shipyard keep it, since the shipyard continues to make ships for Carnival.  And, you know what, it isn't a one piece mold, anymore than the wing is one piece of fiberglass.  It is made in sections and bolted together.  And, how many ships do you think use a fiberglass fairing, or any fiberglass for that matter?  None.  This is a shipyard, not a boat builder.  So, the molds would not be amongst a pile of "thousands".  Try to get facts right before trying to post, Sam.

[JRG]

22 minutes ago, quattrohead said:

Did you see the fire ??? Galvanized nothing will burn like that. Fiberglass as already determined.

 

Where's the spark,   engine don't chunk fireballs up the chute to ignite soot downstream the combustion chambers and exhaust manifolds.  

 

Perhaps the fiberglass "insulation" got saturated with poly-unsaturated fats from years of Guys fries and burgers and then you may have greased-fiberglass-insulation burning,  but you still need a spark.

 

You can't start a fire without a spark,   the boss told us that.  

 

Is grease soaked fiberglass insulation from Guys fries or Guys burger the winner of the mythical 'funnel fire derby'

 

and this different from the fiberglass wing burning  (maybe maybe not)

 

Engine rpms at nominal for docking,  hamburger grill is full ahead.  All of these burnt carcinogens need to go somewhere. It looks like the fire started from the end of the wing,  but I'm not sure.

 

Has anybody determined if the galley exhausts feed the funnel,   or whatabout the upstairs barbeque in the Buffet,   could all of those ribs be contributing to the build-up.

 

Or was this a one-off,    what sparked it.  too many questions still unanswered.

[Elaine5715]

2 hours ago, JRG said:

We don't have the facts yet,  that why we are waiting on information.

 

Remember in your post, and its always only about the post,  not the poster right.   This is important or else I will not converse with a poster.

 

Anyways in your post,   while you are busy trying to figure out what material the wing is made or,  whether it be aluminum, steel or fiberglass (my guess would be a marine grade galvanized or some thickness),   the fleet operations manager is wondering is a this a local or global problem?

 

What's that you say,  you never heard of it.  Well he is wondering is this is a problem unique to the ship or perhaps a 'design' problem with the wing and therefore becomes a much bigger issue for the Carnival fleet,  with respect all things marine that you know (i.e.  maintenance schedules and machine operating ranges etc).  This could be a whopper because it affects their Brand ID,  the whale tail,  the golden arches.

 

So we don't rush to premature evaluations because then we find ourselves walking it back.

 

Hopefully this is not a fleetwide problem or a design issue.    BTW,   you don't go back to shipyard and get a 'mold'

 

You start with the engineering diagrams,    the CAD-CAM drawings for the superstructure and its sub-components are what we call Intellictual Property (IP) and they can be re-produced or fabricated to these specifications by a CNC mill which is programmed to read the .cnc files and cut the sheets that replicate the original equipment.   Those sheets or parts are then what is used to rebuild the funnel.

 

 I don't know the fact for sure for I am guessing from you post that you have never worked in a manufacturing plan when raw steel,   is cut, bent, drilled,  welded and assembled to deliver a highly engineered product,   I have and I am telling you this is how it works.

My dad was the best tool and die guy around and was fabricating parts before CAD or CAM was invented.  And, debating with Chief on anything ship related will just make you look silly.  

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Actually, Sam, if you read real carefully (I know its hard), you'll see that I said they would need to make a temporary wing until they could mold a new one.  And, the mold for the iconic "wing" is Carnival's property, and since they continue to use them, it would not be out of the ordinary for them to keep it, or to have the shipyard keep it, since the shipyard continues to make ships for Carnival.  And, you know what, it isn't a one piece mold, anymore than the wing is one piece of fiberglass.  It is made in sections and bolted together.  And, how many ships do you think use a fiberglass fairing, or any fiberglass for that matter?  None.  This is a shipyard, not a boat builder.  So, the molds would not be amongst a pile of "thousands".  Try to get facts right before trying to post, Sam.

I had an item made many times about the size of one side of the funnel. Fiberglass and it had 4 sections to the mold. Those 4 sections bolted together on the outside of the mold. The product came out as one piece after the mold was unbolted. Takes one day to make. Second day to full cure. Gel coat color is sprayed down first. Fiberglass is either put down with a chopper gun or had laid. So if they do have the mold and know what they are doing. No big deal.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

7 minutes ago, JRG said:

 

Where's the spark,   engine don't chunk fireballs up the chute to ignite soot downstream the combustion chambers and exhaust manifolds.  

 

Perhaps the fiberglass "insulation" got saturated with poly-unsaturated fats from years of Guys fries and burgers and then you may have greased-fiberglass-insulation burning,  but you still need a spark.

 

You can't start a fire without a spark,   the boss told us that.  

 

Is grease soaked fiberglass insulation from Guys fries or Guys burger the winner of the mythical 'funnel fire derby'

 

and this different from the fiberglass wing burning  (maybe maybe not)

 

Engine rpms at nominal for docking,  hamburger grill is full ahead.  All of these burnt carcinogens need to go somewhere. It looks like the fire started from the end of the wing,  but I'm not sure.

 

Has anybody determined if the galley exhausts feed the funnel,   or whatabout the upstairs barbeque in the Buffet,   could all of those ribs be contributing to the build-up.

 

Or was this a one-off,    what sparked it.  too many questions still unanswered.

I doubt very much if there was any fiberglass batten to get grease on it in that funnel.

[JRG]

4 minutes ago, JRG said:

Where's the spark,   engine don't chunk fireballs up the chute to ignite soot downstream the combustion chambers and exhaust manifolds.  

 

One of the fire cause theories I disagreed with was the leaky flange joint theory because any flange joint in this vicinity would so far from the combustion that you would not need to pressurize the flange joint (if it really exists and its not a slip joint welded).

 

Flange joints and the GASKET which is needed is not likely to blow as you are near the exit of the exhaust discharge and there is not enough pressure to blow a gasket.   Most of these types of gaskets are used for steel-on-steel contact surfaces and not necessarily prone to leakage.

 

So I don't give alot of chance to the leaky flange soot gasket theory as it does not make mechanical sense to me and I will stand by that argument.

 

 

[Illbcruzn4life]

1 minute ago, JRG said:

 

One of the fire cause theories I disagreed with was the leaky flange joint theory because any flange joint in this vicinity would so far from the combustion that you would not need to pressurize the flange joint (if it really exists and its not a slip joint welded).

 

Flange joints and the GASKET which is needed is not likely to blow as you are near the exit of the exhaust discharge and there is not enough pressure to blow a gasket.   Most of these types of gaskets are used for steel-on-steel contact surfaces and not necessarily prone to leakage.

 

So I don't give alot of chance to the leaky flange soot gasket theory as it does not make mechanical sense to me and I will stand by that argument.

 

 

I see you have given up on your a bird flew in the funnel theory. I guess if you throw enough stuff against the wall something is bound to stick.