HAL continuing to downgrade its product

[oaktreerb]

23 minutes ago, cbr663 said:

 

Thank-you so much for this.  I wonder why HAL has chosen not to promote the Advantage Fare?  I wonder if the current fare options are deterring other passengers?

I think HAL’s goal is to get most people to choose the HIA fare.  It must be a money maker for them.   I can see how it could promote more spending in several areas.

[Damcruiser]

21 minutes ago, Florida_gal_50 said:

Hal makes the best bloody Caesar’s anywhere.  I even love to have a virgin one before dinner.  The cabana guys used to love to tease me about my salad in a cup.  Anyway I’m one who likes a chocolate.  I eat pretty sensibly until supper.  I couldn’t tell you what desserts they have at the Dutch cafe, at the lido, etc.  I never go to the dive in and rarely eat the pizza.  Just because you like a chocolate here and there doesn’t mean you are in it to gain as much as possible.

There was a major $**t storm over at the Celebrity forum when nightly chocolates disappeared.  A nightly candy either after dinner or on your pillow should not be a serious enough event to make you want to switch cruise lines.

However I really missed the liqueurs that at one time were freely available at the ice cream counter.

if one wants chocolate one can always get one of those humongous chocolate desserts at the Dutch Cafe.

as long as the prices are where they are now, the crew as as good as they are, all other issues become minor.

 

 

[Ken the cruiser]

10 minutes ago, Damcruiser said:

There was a major $**t storm over at the Celebrity forum when nightly chocolates disappeared.  A nightly candy either after dinner or on your pillow should not be a serious enough event to make you want to switch cruise lines.

However I really missed the liqueurs that at one time were freely available at the ice cream counter.

if one wants chocolate one can always get one of those humongous chocolate desserts at the Dutch Cafe.

as long as the prices are where they are now, the crew as as good as they are, all other issues become minor.

If I might ask, how many assistants does the HAL combination Cruise and Excursion Director have to help keep their guests entertained, not counting those working in the excursion department? On Princess and Celebrity, there are usually between 4-6 to help their Cruise Directors perform trivia events, interactive game shows and comedy specials during the evening and on sea days.

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Ken the cruiser

[Florida_gal_50]

8 minutes ago, Damcruiser said:

There was a major $**t storm over at the Celebrity forum when nightly chocolates disappeared.  A nightly candy either after dinner or on your pillow should not be a serious enough event to make you want to switch cruise lines.

However I really missed the liqueurs that at one time were freely available at the ice cream counter.

if one wants chocolate one can always get one of those humongous chocolate desserts at the Dutch Cafe.

as long as the prices are where they are now, the crew as as good as they are, all other issues become minor.

 

 

Thanks for the info on the celebrity board.  I don’t generally read it but my next cruise may be on celebrity because things are just adding up against hal for me plus my work schedule is not helping.  You do know that one of those squares chocolates on hal are maybe 50 or 100 calories.  If you are talking about those cream filled things at the Dutch cafe I bet those are at least 1000.  I’ve never been able to eat like that.  If I did I’d probably gain 50 lbs and I put on between 10 to 15 thousand steps plus I also exercise quite a lot.  If people enjoy the chocolates why should anyone get worked up about the fact that they do?  It must cost hal such a tiny bit of money.  Since you are new you wouldn’t feel the death by a thousand cuts like others do that have supported hal financially over many years.

[rkacruiser]

20 hours ago, LMaxwell said:

Sorry, I just got off Nieuw Amsterdam and went to Ocean Bar AND Billboard for Happy hours; all they have is honey roasted peanuts. 

 

 

Did you request anything else?  Sometimes, I have had to mention the canapes and hot hors d'oeuvres before they appeared.  The same with Goldfish and pretzels or potato chips.   At least in the past, the dry snacks, including the peanuts, are in the bar's pantry and simply need to be served by the bartenders.  

[Damcruiser]

53 minutes ago, Florida_gal_50 said:

Thanks for the info on the celebrity board.  I don’t generally read it but my next cruise may be on celebrity because things are just adding up against hal for me plus my work schedule is not helping.  You do know that one of those squares chocolates on hal are maybe 50 or 100 calories.  If you are talking about those cream filled things at the Dutch cafe I bet those are at least 1000.  I’ve never been able to eat like that.  If I did I’d probably gain 50 lbs and I put on between 10 to 15 thousand steps plus I also exercise quite a lot.  If people enjoy the chocolates why should anyone get worked up about the fact that they do?  It must cost hal such a tiny bit of money.  Since you are new you wouldn’t feel the death by a thousand cuts like others do that have supported hal financially over many years.

 

[Damcruiser]

What makes you think I’m relatively new?  My first cruise with HAL was on the Rotterdam V in 1989.  I’m almost 4* now but I’m triple Zenith on Celebrity after 225 cruises over there.

my whole point is that people complain about minor issues.

there are many serious issues that make people switch cruise lines.

I sort of remember a study done decades ago about an airline that removed one olive from their in flight martinis thereby saving 100’s of thousands dollars.

 

[Florida_gal_50]

4 minutes ago, Damcruiser said:

What makes you think I’m relatively new?  My first cruise with HAL was on the Rotterdam V in 1989.  I’m almost 4* now but I’m triple Zenith on Celebrity after 225 cruises over there.

my whole point is that people complain about minor issues.

there are many serious issues that make people switch cruise lines.

I sort of remember a study done decades ago about an airline that removed one olive from their in flight martinis thereby saving 100’s of thousands dollars.

 

I thought you said it was your first cruise with hal.  I must be thinking of someone else.    Good for airlines.  I don’t spend weeks on a plane. Not comparable to me.

[Damcruiser]

1 hour ago, Ken the cruiser said:

If I might ask, how many assistants does the HAL combination Cruise and Excursion Director have to help keep their guests entertained, not counting those working in the excursion department? On Princess and Celebrity, there are usually between 4-6 to help their Cruise Directors perform trivia events, interactive game shows and comedy specials during the evening and on sea days.

 

There were 4 different assistants that presented trivia.  Several years ago, Celebrity cut the number of assistants in half.  It has been a long time since we cruised on Princess so I can’t comment about their staffing.

I must say however that the cruise directors on Celebrity are much more visible than on our experience on HAL.  The same goes for senior officers.  They are much friendlier and outgoing on most Celebrity ships.  On Celebrity I even had the opportunity to host the occasional trivia.

the most important difference between HAL and Celebrity is the opportunity to dance on a real dance floor on HAL.  Celebrity has a band playing in the atrium, or in the newer ships in the martini bar.

And then there is the crow’s nest.  Celebrity has cut the forward observation lounge from its newer vessels.

The crows nest is a huge success on HAL ships,   Celebrity has nothing comparable.

The crow’s nest also has power outlets for charging phones, tablets, and computers.

 

 

[Damcruiser]

9 minutes ago, Florida_gal_50 said:

I thought you said it was your first cruise with hal.  I must be thinking of someone else.    Good for airlines.  I don’t spend weeks on a plane. Not comparable to me.

You missed the point.  Cutting off chocolates is a money saver for cruiselines, just as olives were for the airline.  I’m about to spend seven weeks on a HAL ship, and I know that if I need a chocolate fix, there are alternatives that some seemly have not discovered.

[Florida_gal_50]

1 minute ago, Damcruiser said:

You missed the point.  Cutting off chocolates is a money saver for cruiselines, just as olives were for the airline.  I’m about to spend seven weeks on a HAL ship, and I know that if I need a chocolate fix, there are alternatives that some seemly have not discovered.

Nope I got your point.  I just don’t happen to agree.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Florida_gal_50

[Ken the cruiser]

20 minutes ago, Damcruiser said:

There were 4 different assistants that presented trivia.  Several years ago, Celebrity cut the number of assistants in half.  It has been a long time since we cruised on Princess so I can’t comment about their staffing.

I must say however that the cruise directors on Celebrity are much more visible than on our experience on HAL.  The same goes for senior officers.  They are much friendlier and outgoing on most Celebrity ships.  On Celebrity I even had the opportunity to host the occasional trivia.

the most important difference between HAL and Celebrity is the opportunity to dance on a real dance floor on HAL.  Celebrity has a band playing in the atrium, or in the newer ships in the martini bar.

And then there is the crow’s nest.  Celebrity has cut the forward observation lounge from its newer vessels.

The crows nest is a huge success on HAL ships,   Celebrity has nothing comparable.

The crow’s nest also has power outlets for charging phones, tablets, and computers.

 

That is great to hear the HAL CD has 4 different assistants now to help with interactive game shows, trivia and other varieties of entertainment. For a long time, pretty much since the introduction of the Music Walk, there was usually only one.

[HappyInVan]

Unfortunately, it is what it is. With excess capacity, CCL fills its ships at bargain basement prices.

 

For example, Hal's Statendam in the Caribbean is still selling November departures, at less than $100/nite pp. That's a crazy price. The customer recovers the cost just with a room service breakfast, full dinner in the Dining Room, and hogging a recliner at the pool.

 

CCL has to cut costs as inflation rages. IMHO, a new range of cost cutting in the new year, as new logistic contracts go into effect.

 

[iflyrc5]

6 hours ago, oaktreerb said:

There is a refundable fare between the HIA and non-refundable.  Ask your TA or HAL agent for the Advantage Fare.  You really have three fare choices but they only promote two of them.  You have to ask.

I agree - we use a TA and get the pricing with a refundable deposit - it is usually about 5% more than the non-refundable fare.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, Damcruiser said:

the most important difference between HAL and Celebrity is the opportunity to dance on a real dance floor on HAL.  Celebrity has a band playing in the atrium, or in the newer ships in the martini bar.

And then there is the crow’s nest.  Celebrity has cut the forward observation lounge from its newer vessels.

The crows nest is a huge success on HAL ships,   Celebrity has nothing comparable.

The crow’s nest also has power outlets for charging phones, tablets, and computers.

 

Not sure I get your comparison. Are you saying you like the Crow's Nest as a place to relax and sit during the day or a place to dance at night? Curious because on the HAL cruises I've been on, I've never found much going on there in the evenings. Where are there people dancing?  Or are you referring to the music venues?

 

On the other hand, I am fresh off 19 days on BTB Celebrity Constellation cruises and the Reflections lounge (the forward-facing lounge on Deck 11) was always hopping at night.

 

Celebrity may have done away with the front-facing lounge on their newer 3 ships, but according to my count that leaves 4 beautiful M-class ships and 5 S-class ships that still have it.... 

 

[curmudgeon98]

On 10/31/2022 at 2:39 PM, DaveOKC said:

$20 fee to bring own wine onboard - previously one bottle per person free.

18% service fee for specialty dining.

Increased prices for specialty dining.

Charges for previously free items on room service menu items 

$20 charge for lobster in Pinnacle (and MDR).

No lobster tails at "dressy or formal" night at least once per cruise.

Charging for cappuccinos after dinner.

Fewer onboard activities daily 

No fresh orange juice.

No nightly chocolates except on dressy nights.  Same for towel animals.

No paper confirmations for specialty dining, shore excursions and others.

No slippers in cabin (to go with robes).

Neptune suite coffeemakers no longer have pods for coffee, just expresso.

Nice cloth bags replaced with cheap plastic ones.

 

I am sure I could think of more later and some of these are minor, but I stated as much above.  Perhaps others can add to my list.

 

We were on the same cruise as Dave.  It had been five years since we had been on a HAL cruise.  It did feel like the "nickel and dime" aspect had increased since our previous cruise, especially the 18% add-on charge on so many things that were already an upcharge.  I tend to look at the overall costs, though, and not get too worried about how the specific charges fit together. 

 

There was nothing really wrong with the cruise, and the service was quite good, but there was also nothing that really compels us to choose HAL over others.    

[The-Inside-Cabin]

I am currently on Wonder of the Seas  - live posts on the RCI board and my website.   They could teach HAL a thing or two about ala cartre pricing.    e.g.  $2 a day pp to use the chat feature built into their app.   $50 for a galley tour.

 

I suspect we are heading toward the day when the only difference between a cruise vacation and a land vacation will be the fact that you are moving around on a cruise ship.   They will charge you for a room and you will pay ala carte for EVERTHING else.     

[dwc13]

2 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

Unfortunately, it is what it is. With excess capacity, CCL fills its ships at bargain basement prices.

 

For example, Hal's Statendam in the Caribbean is still selling November departures, at less than $100/nite pp. That's a crazy price. The customer recovers the cost just with a room service breakfast, full dinner in the Dining Room, and hogging a recliner at the pool.

 

CCL has to cut costs as inflation rages. IMHO, a new range of cost cutting in the new year, as new logistic contracts go into effect.

 

 

 

CCL, and really any publicly-traded company, is always looking to cut costs. Doing so ingratiates the company to Wall Street fund managers that control large blocks of voting shares. It helps C-suite executives achieve "performance metrics", thereby allowing them to receive triggered bonuses. And cutting costs helps with cash flow needed to meet debt obligations. Those bigger, fancier cruise ships built in recent years aren't cheap. The cruise industry's recent building program kind of reminds me of what Steve Wynn started back in the late 80s when he built the Mirage. That led to a facilities arms race among casino operators on the Strip...and some ugly financial statements caused by huge capex amounts and associated debt service. We'll see how things play out in the cruise industry as companies build bigger and more expensive ships and become more highly levered. 

 

 

[Mary229]

5 hours ago, dwc13 said:

 

 

CCL, and really any publicly-traded company, is always looking to cut costs. Doing so ingratiates the company to Wall Street fund managers that control large blocks of voting shares. It helps C-suite executives achieve "performance metrics", thereby allowing them to receive triggered bonuses. And cutting costs helps with cash flow needed to meet debt obligations. Those bigger, fancier cruise ships built in recent years aren't cheap. The cruise industry's recent building program kind of reminds me of what Steve Wynn started back in the late 80s when he built the Mirage. That led to a facilities arms race among casino operators on the Strip...and some ugly financial statements caused by huge capex amounts and associated debt service. We'll see how things play out in the cruise industry as companies build bigger and more expensive ships and become more highly levered. 

 

 

I disagree.   Cutting costs is not the only way and likely not the desirable way to profit.  Reasonable cost cutting such as fuel efficiencies, staffing efficiencies make sense but if you degrade the product you will lose customers.  Would you eat a Hershey bar with only 10% cocoa, I think not.  
 

Raising prices, while maintaining quality, is a better way to retain customers. Now is a good time to raise prices since inflation is so in the forefront of people’s minds.  They will be more forgiving of a price increase than they are of a tough, rubbery steak.

 

Sometimes cuts are exchanges not cost cutting.  What we may hold dear the new customer finds no value and his desires may be chosen over our preferences 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Mary229

[rodndonna]

6 hours ago, The-Inside-Cabin said:

 

I suspect we are heading toward the day when the only difference between a cruise vacation and a land vacation will be the fact that you are moving around on a cruise ship.   They will charge you for a room and you will pay ala carte for EVERTHING else.     

 

That was the original EASYCRUISE model. We loved it (it was SUPER cheap), but sadly it didn't survive as most people ate and drank off ship and only had our room attended to once a week (you had to pay for that, towel change was at an additional cost, sheet changes at a additional cost ...). 

 

It was closer to a floating hostel than hotel ...

Edited November 2, 2022 by rodndonna

[Mary229]

2 minutes ago, rodndonna said:

 

That was the original EASYCRUISE model. We loved it (it was SUPER cheap), but sadly it didn't survive as most people ate and drank off ship and only had our room attended to once a week (you had to pay for that, towel change was at an additional cost, sheet changes at a additional cost ...). 

 

It was closer to a floating hostel than hotel ...

Sounds like a case of you better watch what you wish for.  Though it will never be said that I am a spendthrift as a person I long ago realized as a business person targeting bargain hunters can destroy profitability.  Bargain hunters are good at what they do, don’t test them.  It is far better never to let your customers expect discounts as then they will always seek them.  Not only do we consumers need to pick our quality level and pay for it the cruise lines have the same decision - which level are you going to cater to and then charge what is costs to meet those expectations.

[rodndonna]

2 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

Sounds like a case of you better watch what you wish for.  Though it will never be said that I am a spendthrift as a person I long ago realized as a business person targeting bargain hunters can destroy profitability.  Bargain hunters are good at what they do, don’t test them.  It is far better never to let your customers expect discounts as then they will always seek them.  Not only do we consumers need to pick our quality level and pay for it the cruise lines have the same decision - which level are you going to cater to and then charge what is costs to meet those expectations.

Exactly, that's why Easycruise didn't survive, I think their business plan expected people would still spend a certain amount in board, but the people drawn to those cruises were out for making it the lowest cost possible. Why we would we eat or drink on board  a Greek Island cruise where we were in port until 3:00 am everyday?

 

I have no idea what they were thinking ....but it was a dismal failure. (We LOVED it though)

[vicd1969]

8 hours ago, dwc13 said:

 

 

CCL, and really any publicly-traded company, is always looking to cut costs. Doing so ingratiates the company to Wall Street fund managers that control large blocks of voting shares. It helps C-suite executives achieve "performance metrics", thereby allowing them to receive triggered bonuses. And cutting costs helps with cash flow needed to meet debt obligations. Those bigger, fancier cruise ships built in recent years aren't cheap. The cruise industry's recent building program kind of reminds me of what Steve Wynn started back in the late 80s when he built the Mirage. That led to a facilities arms race among casino operators on the Strip...and some ugly financial statements caused by huge capex amounts and associated debt service. We'll see how things play out in the cruise industry as companies build bigger and more expensive ships and become more highly levered. 

 

 

You have a good point about the pressure on publicly-owned cruise lines to cut costs. This may mean that for privately-owned lines such as MSC and a few other smaller lines who can afford to take a longer-term outlook, you could see better bang for your cruise bucks in the future.

[BermudaBound2014]

This discussion further supports the idea that the lines which will flourish in the immediate future are the true luxury lines. 

[Mary229]

1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

This discussion further supports the idea that the lines which will flourish in the immediate future are the true luxury lines. 

Some of us who can afford what the true luxury lines do not find value in their offerings.  I would rather seek other methods of travel than pay $10000 for a couple of weeks in the Caribbean.   I don’t need that kind of stroking, I am seeking travel not social status

Edited November 2, 2022 by Mary229