In-person muster drills?

[BirdTravels]

18 hours ago, farmecologist said:

NCL is obviously complete an utter denial about covid ( and other viruses ) spreading on their ships.  Honestly...people packed in shoulder to shoulder...what the F.  👎  

Gosh... the President of the United States will declare that the COVID emergency is over shortly (I think in March),,,, turning off funding to combat it. Is he in "utter denial about covid" also?

 

But,,, no one would knowingly board a ship with COVID, so the muster should be safe???

Edited February 6, 2023 by BirdTravels

[Sarge88]

We just got back from the Encore and we had in-person Muster drill again.  It was painfully slow, saw many folks got their card scanned and waited for a bit and disappeared

[wolft927]

Ok, so here is my opinion....Do I prefer the virtual muster just watch a video scan my key card and done...absolutely!!!! Do I like the traditional muster drill? Absolutely not! Will it ever ruin my 1st day onboard? Absolutely NOT. 

Why one cruise line does it one way and the others do it another will always be up for debate. I love cruising NCL, and this process will not discourage me to cruise with them, but if it bothers someone else that much we all have the opportunity to cruise other lines.  

[PATRLR]

36 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

No, what the other lines are doing is "simulating" training with crowds, which is not the same thing as handling crowds, and I feel that crew training has suffered during the e-muster usage, and will continue to suffer if the e-muster continues.  Want an example?  See the NCL drill the PP was complaining about, where the crew had no handle on handling the crowds.  Now, which is more similar to a real emergency, the e-muster where they handle 10-20 people at a time, or where they are faced with the entire ship heading to muster stations?  So, ask yourself, if the old musters were considered to merely be a waste of time, but with the training the crew has had during the e-muster period, when they actually have to do a passenger muster, and it is described as a shambles, have they been receiving better training?  This just makes my point.

I don't doubt your statements regarding the crew training and it importance.  I agree that the people management is a critical part of an emergency response.  So I wonder why the CG is, supposedly, "OK" with other lines doing e-muster?

 

[chengkp75]

Just now, PATRLR said:

I don't doubt your statements regarding the crew training and it importance.  I agree that the people management is a critical part of an emergency response.  So I wonder why the CG is, supposedly, "OK" with other lines doing e-muster?

 

The e-muster was given conditional approval, pending evaluation by the IMO (and remember, it is the IMO, not the USCG that sets standards for safety on foreign flag cruise ships), so until the conditional approval is rescinded, it is acceptable to do either way.  I see the e-muster going away in the next couple of years at the outside.  

[farmecologist]

36 minutes ago, BirdTravels said:

Gosh... the President of the United States will declare that the COVID emergency is over shortly (I think in March),,,, turning off funding to combat it. Is he in "utter denial about covid" also?

 

But,,, no one would knowingly board a ship with COVID, so the muster should be safe???

 

Why yes...yes he is.  Sure...go ahead and declare the "emergency is over".  Denial is still there.  There is much more at play here than public safety... 

Also convenient that a very interesting recent thread documenting many *very recent* CC'er cases of covid seems to have disappeared.  Things that make you go Hmm.....

 

[RocketMan275]

2 hours ago, disneylover89 said:

Just curious, how do they save money?  Not being snarky, I just don't understand how. 

Cruise lines that use e-mustering must position crew members at muster stations for several hours on the first day of a cruise so that passengers can visit the stations for a brief orientation — a requirement of e-mustering. The result is that a significant number of crew members are tied up on embarkation day with the e-mustering process.

 

"E-muster requires more staffing resources," Carnival noted in its statement to TPG. "But our experience with the e-muster process has been extremely positive, and we are able to provide our guests with critical safety information in a more individualized manner, including them understanding very specifically where their muster station is and how to get to it."

In other words, Carnival sees the e-muster process as, if anything, safer than the old style of in-person mustering.

 

 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/cruise-ship-muster-drill-changes-reasons/

[FloridaGram]

On 2/5/2023 at 5:19 PM, cheersforbeers said:

Just off Breakaway on a B2B and in person drill was mandatory. Like in past drill would not start until all checked in. Our station was in the Manhattan and it was packed. 

I don't understand why NCL started this and if I could I would not go on our cruise. I definitely will not be a return cruiser for this one reason, no matter how much I like the cruise.

[ontheweb]

6 hours ago, FloridaGram said:

I don't understand why NCL started this and if I could I would not go on our cruise. I definitely will not be a return cruiser for this one reason, no matter how much I like the cruise.

Do you approve of the return to normalcy of not requiring vaccination proof and Covid testing before the cruise? If so, why do you disapprove of going back to the safer drill now that Covid is not a major factor?

[DMP609]

I have no problem going back to the in-person muster, but if NCL is going to require this, they need to make sure it's effective. Reading reports from people who couldn't hear or understand the instructions is discouraging. And of course people should be annoyed when some of their fellow cruisers don't mind inconveniencing people by being late or not showing up at all for the muster, thus delaying it's start. 

[RocketMan275]

5 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Do you approve of the return to normalcy of not requiring vaccination proof and Covid testing before the cruise? If so, why do you disapprove of going back to the safer drill now that Covid is not a major factor?

Royal Caribbean and Carnival disagree with your assertion that inperson muster is safer than the emuster.

[farmecologist]

32 minutes ago, DMP609 said:

I have no problem going back to the in-person muster, but if NCL is going to require this, they need to make sure it's effective. Reading reports from people who couldn't hear or understand the instructions is discouraging. And of course people should be annoyed when some of their fellow cruisers don't mind inconveniencing people by being late or not showing up at all for the muster, thus delaying it's start. 

 

I agree. However, we were on a few cruises pre-pandemic and I can't remember *any* of them where people were happy...and because of that many were just ticked off, not listening, and thinking more about getting the heck out of there than paying attention.  Getting the attention of passengers has *always* been an issue...and I personally believe that a much happier experience will make people pay attention better.  And the e-muster accomplishes that. 👍

 

[RocketMan275]

59 minutes ago, DMP609 said:

I have no problem going back to the in-person muster, but if NCL is going to require this, they need to make sure it's effective. Reading reports from people who couldn't hear or understand the instructions is discouraging. And of course people should be annoyed when some of their fellow cruisers don't mind inconveniencing people by being late or not showing up at all for the muster, thus delaying it's start. 

The 'safety experts' here on CC assert that the purpose of the muster drill is not to train passengers but to provide a mechanism to train the crew on how to get the passenges to their muster stations.  These experts insist that the old inpersonmuster is the only conceivable way to conduct this training.  These experts also maintain that the 'training' conducted at the muster station is nothing but a bit of fluff having nothing to do with the real reason for the muster drills so the quality of this training is unimportant.

 

IOW, passengers should be proud that they are doing their part in the training of the crew and should not criticize the return to the old inpersonmuster.  These experts do not address why Royal Caribbean or Carnival believe the emuster is superior training for the passengers.

[poohdreaming]

Off the NCL Getaway, it was in person muster drill. I believe it was the first Getaway back to normal for the in person muster drill. It was very packed waiting outside for the theater to be opened and it was a mess in the theater. It was supposed to start at exactly 3 pm, but it was delayed to like 3:20 pm opening up doors to the theater. It was not done until 4 pm ish. I sailed last year with NCL and on another cruise line. I prefer the virtual muster drill and calling in to confirm it was done or scanning the card once on board by going straight to the station. If in person, it is fine as long as they can do it quick. This time it was unorganized.

[chengkp75]

7 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

The 'safety experts' here on CC assert that the purpose of the muster drill is not to train passengers but to provide a mechanism to train the crew on how to get the passenges to their muster stations.

Once again, I have to question whether reading comprehension or merely misquoting to prove your position is at work here.  I never said the muster drill is not to train the passengers.  Please show me where I said that.  What I said is that the muster drill is to train both crew and passengers.

 

7 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

These experts also maintain that the 'training' conducted at the muster station is nothing but a bit of fluff having nothing to do with the real reason for the muster drills so the quality of this training is unimportant.

The "training" you reference, like the lifejacket donning, and I don't really remember much of anything else that was safety related in the spiel, is not important to the muster drill.  As stated, long before the e-muster, ships were allowed to not have lifejacket demonstrations at the drill, as long as they had it on the TV (so, even that training was allowed, by the IMO, to be separate from the muster drill).

Edited February 7, 2023 by chengkp75

[chengkp75]

7 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

These experts do not address why Royal Caribbean or Carnival believe the emuster is superior training for the passengers.

Neither do RCI or Carnival address the reasons they feel the drill is better training, except that it gives a better forum for the safety training that does not have to be part of the muster drill.  They make no mention of what happens when an actual emergency happens.   As one poster noted of an actual in person drill on NCL last week, it was a shambles.  This shows that with the e-muster format, neither the passengers nor the crew have any idea what would have to be done in a real emergency.  This is as close to proving my point as we will get, short of an actual emergency.

 

9 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

The 'safety experts' here on CC

And, I'll put my 46 years seagoing time, designing, leading, participating, and critiquing shipboard training, and actual emergencies, against about 98% of CC posters.

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

Once again, I have to question whether reading comprehension or merely misquoting to prove your position is at work here.  I never said the muster drill is not to train the passengers.  Please show me where I said that.  What I said is that the muster drill is to train both crew and passengers.

 

The "training" you reference, like the lifejacket donning, and I don't really remember much of anything else that was safety related in the spiel, is not important to the muster drill.  As stated, long before the e-muster, ships were allowed to not have lifejacket demonstrations at the drill, as long as they had it on the TV (so, even that training was allowed, by the IMO, to be separate from the muster drill).

  

If there is nothing safety related in the 'spiel', then why do the passengers have to attend this spiel?

[RocketMan275]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Neither do RCI or Carnival address the reasons they feel the drill is better training, except that it gives a better forum for the safety training that does not have to be part of the muster drill.  They make no mention of what happens when an actual emergency happens.   As one poster noted of an actual in person drill on NCL last week, it was a shambles.  This shows that with the e-muster format, neither the passengers nor the crew have any idea what would have to be done in a real emergency.  This is as close to proving my point as we will get, short of an actual emergency.

 

And, I'll put my 46 years seagoing time, designing, leading, participating, and critiquing shipboard training, and actual emergencies, against about 98% of CC posters.

They called it a shambles because of the events at the actual muster station.

 

Please explain why/how an inpersonmuster teaches anything about the deficiencies of the emuster?

 

[wolft927]

I am seriously wondering when this thread will die off lol....pretty sure it has seen its day lol!!!

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

  

If there is nothing safety related in the 'spiel', then why do the passengers have to attend this spiel?

Again, you missed one little word, "else", meaning that the lifejacket demonstration was safety related, but most of the rest is not, it is general shipboard information.

 

3 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

They called it a shambles because of the events at the actual muster station.

 

Please explain why/how an inpersonmuster teaches anything about the deficiencies of the emuster?

 

For someone who claims to have designed "realistic" training, you just don't get what that term means.  Yes, the "events at the actual muster station" were a shambles.  Guess what, what happens at the "actual muster station" is what happens in a real emergency.  As to how the "shambles" of an  in person drill teaches anything about the e-muster, here's where I see you are being obviously obtuse, because the training that the crew have had over the last couple years using the e-muster, and what training any repeat cruisers have had with the e-muster, did not prepare them for a simulated actual, real, emergency (which is what the in person drill is).

 

I responded to another poster in another thread that relying on the e-muster to properly train both passengers and crew for a real emergency is like having the crew assigned to lower the lifeboat, to show up one at a time, get attendance checked off (so they know where to go), and then watch a video on how to lower and launch the lifeboat.  That would be real effective training.

 

But, I think this will be the final entry with you, as you are obviously only wanting convenience at the sake of safety, since you have no idea what a shipboard emergency is like, have no idea what the shipboard safety organization is, and no proof of effectiveness of the total training and experience of drills.

 

I really hope you never have to rely on the crew to save you in a real  emergency that they have not properly, and exhaustively trained for.

 

 

[RocketMan275]

19 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

But, I think this will be the final entry with you, as you are obviously only wanting convenience at the sake of safety, since you have no idea what a shipboard emergency is like, have no idea what the shipboard safety organization is, and no proof of effectiveness of the total training and experience of drills.

I've stated multiple times that my objective is training that has some value.

You have yet to explain what training the passengers are supposed to get from the inpersonmuster.

Why not simply state that the objective of the inpersonmuster is to train the crew in cat hearding techniques and to train the passengers in obeying the crew?

 

 

[farmecologist]

50 minutes ago, wolft927 said:

I am seriously wondering when this thread will die off lol....pretty sure it has seen its day lol!!!

 

because everyone has to get the "last word"...just like any internet "debate".   🤣

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Royal Caribbean and Carnival disagree with your assertion that inperson muster is safer than the emuster.

That is the Royal Caribbean and Carnival assertion. But where does it come from? I think it is from corporate, i.e., the bean counters, not from those who are actually in charge of conducting the muster drills.

 

And @chengkp75 has done an analysis of man hours that seems to disprove the theory that the new e-muster actually costs more than the traditional muster drill. I think if it actually did cost more, you would still see the old muster drill on those lines. They are looking for every cost cutting tactic that they feel they can get away with. They are definitely not looking to increase any costs.

[RocketMan275]

31 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

That is the Royal Caribbean and Carnival assertion. But where does it come from? I think it is from corporate, i.e., the bean counters, not from those who are actually in charge of conducting the muster drills.

 

And @chengkp75 has done an analysis of man hours that seems to disprove the theory that the new e-muster actually costs more than the traditional muster drill. I think if it actually did cost more, you would still see the old muster drill on those lines. They are looking for every cost cutting tactic that they feel they can get away with. They are definitely not looking to increase any costs.

 

Somehow, I trust Royal Caribbean and Carnival to know more about relative costs between emuster and inpersonmuster.  After all, those cruise lines success or failure is dependent upon how well they manage costs.  

 

The Points Guy has a proven track record of analyzing relative costs between alternatives too.

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by RocketMan275

[Cruising Lynne]

On 2/5/2023 at 10:38 AM, JIMESOPUS said:

Just off the BA  ( 1/29/23 ), here is something to view ( I'm not a subscriber to his channel ), exactly what what we experienced the week before his cruise. Total chaos and confusion.

 

While I did enjoy the e-muster process on my most recent cruises, I understand the reasons for going back to the old way. This video by Tony bothered me. I generally enjoy Tony's channel, but I felt that this one was a little out of line. I do feel that if everyone was quiet for a few minutes, and showed up on time, the process could be done more efficiently and painlessly. Why is being quiet so hard for some people? 

 

That said, I do hope that NCL can figure out a new way to do it more efficiently. I feel like a combination of the old way and e-muster could be better. Have everyone watch the video. Then have everyone go to the muster stations at the same time, like in an actual emergency, to get their cards scanned. Don't hold everyone there in a big crowd.