Two blind ladies

[emam]

Apparently two ladies who are blind booked a cruise on Ventura. Their TA liaised with P&O with regards to their concerns. However when they boarded Ventura things changed and they had to argue their right to be there. They were given a letter and escorted from the ship.

 

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2023-06-06/blind-friends-forced-to-leave-dream-cruise-dubbed-health-and-safety-risk

 

 

[Selbourne]

This is a difficult one. I have to say that I have some sympathy with P&O and I say that as the husband of someone who is disabled and could not cruise without me. It strikes me as dangerous for a blind person to be on a cruise ship, which is an unfamiliar environment with potential hazards, without a sighted companion or an assistance dog (I presume that they had neither or the article would say). 
 

Of course, where this has gone wrong is that it appears that P&O accepted the booking in the first place. However, having filled in more Accessible Needs questionnaires than you can shake a stick at (no pun intended), it is made very clear that anyone who is unable to get around the ship unaided must have an able bodied travel companion with them. Having another blind person with you doesn’t really count, so it sounds to me as though there might have been an error in how the forms were completed. If so, it would be unfair to criticise P&O. 

[emam]

1 hour ago, Selbourne said:

This is a difficult one. I have to say that I have some sympathy with P&O and I say that as the husband of someone who is disabled and could not cruise without me. It strikes me as dangerous for a blind person to be on a cruise ship, which is an unfamiliar environment with potential hazards, without a sighted companion or an assistance dog (I presume that they had neither or the article would say). 
 

 

 

I can't imagine how they could get around the ship themselves. There are so many staircases all over the ship. So many people sat all over that there is no clear walkway.

When on Ventura a few years ago, I went into one of the beauty talks. They were demonstrating the correct way to apply some cream. One of the ladies went over to a table to help some ladies who turned out to be blind. There was a group sitting together, but I don't know if any of them were sighted, as they were sat behind a pole.

 

A few days later when getting off the coach at Pisa, I heard some people asking the guide (quite forcefully) to take them around. It was the ladies this time with some men, they all appeared to have sight issues. I don't know if the guide obliged them.

 

I never saw any of them walking around the ship.

[AndyMichelle]

I saw this on the news.

Very tricky subject. 

Their argument seemed to be that they were entitled to be offered the same 'rights' to enjoy their holiday as everyone else. 

The practicality does seem high risk, so I can understand P&Os stance, but sad that they missed a holiday they were so looking forward to. 

My father was blind but managed to adapt to lead a 'normal' life. I hate to think of him being denied doing something that he would have been confident of being able to cope with. 

That said, P&O have a duty of care for all passengers, so understand why they would not want that responsibility. 

Andy 

 

[Cloudyrain]

Reasonable adjustments should be made (assisted boarding, assisted dining, allocated seating etc) and provisions of equipment (in accessibility cabins and standard cabins) and assistance in emergency situations (e.g. if the emergency signal sounds and lifts are out of action, those who lack mobility should be assisted). 
 

However, I think it’s probably very nuanced and depending upon people’s personal situations. I would imagine that two blind people who ordinarily live independently and navigate the world safely would be able to cruise. However if they usually rely on outside support or assistance for day to day living they would be unable to cruise without a sighted companion/carer. 
 

My disabled friends cruise together and are able enough between them to cruise without a carer travelling: but do require assistance and adjustments in terms of cabin, equipment, someone to help carry etc.

[9265359]

13 hours ago, emam said:

Apparently two ladies who are blind booked a cruise on Ventura. Their TA liaised with P&O with regards to their concerns. However when they boarded Ventura things changed and they had to argue their right to be there. They were given a letter and escorted from the ship.

 

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2023-06-06/blind-friends-forced-to-leave-dream-cruise-dubbed-health-and-safety-risk

 

 

 

I strongly doubt we are hearing the full story here.

 

P&O do not prohibit passengers who are blind or have visual impairments, and their website has comprehensive details on the subject - Impairments and Disabilities on Board | P&O Cruises (pocruises.com)

 

There is no mention that passengers who are blind or have visual impairments need a sighted person accompanying them, so a solo blind passenger or a couple who are blind are not prohibited by P&O.

 

I would therefore strongly suspect that some form of conversation took place that meant that P&O determined that it didn't want the couple on board, and as usual with these events, you have those individuals who feel wronged going to the press to say what they want, whilst the corporation is restrained in what it can say.

 

11 hours ago, emam said:

 

I can't imagine how they could get around the ship themselves.

 

Having worked with and known many blind and visually impaired people over the years, I have no doubt that would have been able to get around the ship by themselves - and likely far better than an awful lot of sighted passengers who have no clue where they are or which end of the ship!

[Megabear2]

I'm rather confused about this story, as the problem would appear to be not P&O's actions in refusing to allow them to sail but rather why they accepted the booking in the first place. 

 

If, as stated, the t/a did discuss the ladies' disabilities in full with P&O before making the reservation then the training of operatives in the booking centres of both companies would seem to be questionable.  No doubt the travel agent would have been extremely nervous of being accused of discrimination if they had said a straight no way is this possible, however they should have gone into the detail of how much sight impairment the ladies actually had and checked with P&O the requirement to have a non disabled travelling companion (of course they may have done this, the article doesn't go into any detail).  The wording in the article about braille on the lifts and the orientation tour are virtually word for word as written in the Onboard Needs Guide, however without expanding on the two ladies actual personal sight the P&O operator would not realise they were completely sightless.

 

It is apparently possible to be registered "blind" but actually not be completely without sight, I once worked with a lady in this situation, and it could be P&O recognise this in their "blind" guests terminology. On the other hand the P&O call handler would have been relying on information provided by the ladies to the t/a and they were at the end of a telephone line.  Under those circumstances it is very easy to see where the problem could come from.

 

The question to P&O would seem be when t/a contacted them in the first instance did they actually have a firm policy in place that their operator could refer to.  With such strict anti discrimination laws and the opportunism of some people (not these ladies I hasten to add) to scream foul I'm guessing the individual operator would also be nervous of being accused and just recite the information in the Needs Guide.

 

Assumedly once t/a were satisfied that the booking could be made with P&O they presumably filled in the disability form but that doesn't actually get mentioned in the article anywhere that I can see so the question then becomes was it even completed?  Having completed one of these forms recently for hidden disability related issues it is very much based on people with mobility issues and wheelchair usage.  I personally found it unclear in terms of issues unrelated to mobility and ended up emailing in considerable detail my symptoms alongside the completed form.  

 

The Onboard Needs Guide is long and covers many forms of disability - pages 10 and 11 cover blindness - however adopting many of these disabilities into the form is actually quite difficult and needs some thinking outside the box, this latter of course being something that takes time and a travel agent with all the will in the world may not have time or understanding of.  How, for instance, would a totally online t/a complete this form when they never see or speak to their clients?  Ridiculous as it sounds someone might not even mention their sight issues to them, what happens then.

 

I have a great deal of sympathy for all involved in this matter however I do think the issue really lies with provision of full details at the booking stage and how they are conveyed between parties. 

 

A very interesting subject.

On Board Needs Guide-1.pdf

Edited June 7, 2023 by Megabear2
Removed name

[Host Hattie]

Please don't name the Travel Agent involved in your posts.

[9265359]

15 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

I'm rather confused about this story, as the problem would appear to be not P&O's actions in refusing to allow them to sail but rather why they accepted the booking in the first place. 

 

If, as stated, the agent did discuss the ladies' disabilities in full with P&O before making the reservation then the training of operatives in the booking centres of both companies would seem to be questionable.  No doubt the travel agent would have been extremely nervous of being accused of discrimination if they had said a straight no way is this possible, however they should have gone into the detail of how much sight impairment the ladies actually had and checked with P&O the requirement to have a non disabled travelling companion (of course they may have done this, the article doesn't go into any detail).

 

Why do you think that P&O would not have accepted their booking if they had no vision at all and did not have a non-disabled companion.

 

P&O make no mention of not accepting blind passengers and they make no mention of blind passengers needing a sighted companion - a sighted companion being pointless unless they were handcuffed together for the whole of the voyage.

Edited June 7, 2023 by 9265359

[david63]

What is not clear in the article is whether the travel agent was a general travel agent or a specialist cruise travel agent.

 

If it was a specialist cruise agent then I would have expected them to know that P&O, and all other cruise lines, have a specialist "accessibility" team (or whatever name it goes under) who they should have contacted before taking the booking.

 

If it was a general travel agent then maybe they were not aware of the accessibility team but whoever they spoke to at P&O should have been aware and transferred the call to that team for clarification.

 

As with all these types of incidents we don't know the full story - only the bits that the press want us to know without spoiling their story.

 

One other point could be that the travel agent was more concerned with getting a booking (targets, commission) than anything else.

[9265359]

4 minutes ago, david63 said:

P&O, and all other cruise lines, have a specialist "accessibility" team (or whatever name it goes under) who they should have contacted before taking the booking.

 

Should they?

 

Do P&O impose a requirement that those who are blind or visually impaired inform them before P&O decide to take their booking?

 

If so, P&O are silent on the matter on their website.

[lincslady]

This could be one of those things the papers love to make a thing of - both these ladies might be registered blind but have some sight and would have been fine on board, but having been refused want to complain bitterly - I have read things so often about people who have been, for instance, 'thrown off' a ship when in fact they deserved it, or it didn't happen like that.  Pinch of salt time.

[Megabear2]

35 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

Why do you think that P&O would not have accepted their booking if they had no vision at all and did not have a non-disabled companion.

 

P&O make no mention of not accepting blind passengers and they make no mention of blind passengers needing a sighted companion - a sighted companion being pointless unless they were handcuffed together for the whole of the voyage.

I do not assume anything, as I say the On Boards Need Guide is trying to be all things to all men and is very broad in definition, however page 9 is as follows (bold added by me).  As the article suggests the ladies were onboard apparently for some time and were not refused boarding but asked to disembark it would suggest something alerted or triggered P&O into actioning one or both of these terms in bold.

 

Quote

 

Care, assistance and travelling alone Guests who require assistance with daily living (such as washing, toileting, eating, mobility) must declare this and must travel with a companion or a personal assistant or carer who is responsible for you at all times. The ship’s crew cannot assist with these tasks. If you have dementia or Alzheimer’s disease, you live in a care home or you have a carer at home, you must travel with a companion or a personal assistant or carer to ensure your safety whilst on board. You will need to provide details in advance. This will be assessed on an individual basis. If you’re travelling alone and it becomes clear that you are unable to manage safely and independently on board without assistance, we will discuss the situation with you to resolve a course of action. You may be asked to disembark the ship at your own cost.

 

Unquote

 

In other words I believe boarding and sailing is at P&O's discretion and if they felt there was a safety issue no matter how unfair it may seem to individuals they have the right to say you cannot sail.  

Edited June 7, 2023 by Megabear2

[kalos]

7 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

Should they?

 

Do P&O impose a requirement that those who are blind or visually impaired inform them before P&O decide to take their booking?

 

If so, P&O are silent on the matter on their website.

 

Taken from P&O web site Important: it is essential that you disclose any conditions or disabilities no later than 14 days prior to your departure. We regret that failure to do so may result in denied boarding at the terminal.

 

 

The main thing that should happen is P&O review and upgrade the assistance pages 

to ensure this situation does not happen again ,which is in the interests of passenger

and P&O. 

All we have to go on is what a paper printed , the rest is guesswork on our part.

[9265359]

1 minute ago, Megabear2 said:

I do not assume anything, as I say the On Boards Need Guide is trying to be all things to all men and is very broad in definition, however page 9 is as follows (bold added by me).  As the article suggests the ladies were onboard apparently for some time and were not refused boarding but asked to Denmark it would suggest something alerted or triggered P&O auctioning one or both of these terms in bold.

 

Quote

 

Care, assistance and travelling alone Guests who require assistance with daily living (such as washing, toileting, eating, mobility) must declare this and must travel with a companion or a personal assistant or carer who is responsible for you at all times. The ship’s crew cannot assist with these tasks. If you have dementia or Alzheimer’s disease, you live in a care home or you have a carer at home, you must travel with a companion or a personal assistant or carer to ensure your safety whilst on board. You will need to provide details in advance. This will be assessed on an individual basis. If you’re travelling alone and it becomes clear that you are unable to manage safely and independently on board without assistance, we will discuss the situation with you to resolve a course of action. You may be asked to disembark the ship at your own cost.

 

Unquote

 

In other words I believe boarding and sailing is at P&O's discretion and if they felt there was a safety issue no matter how unfair it may seem to individuals they have the right to say you cannot sail.  

 

Being blind or having a visual impairment is utterly different from people who "require assistance with daily living (such as washing, toileting, eating, mobility)".

 

Of course P&O has discretion who who it allows to sail, but P&O make no mention of needing to know if a passenger is blind or has a visual impairment before they book.

 

And of course P&O wants the passenger to have the best time on board, which why they *offer* an orientation tour and not *require* blind or partially sighted passengers take one.

[Megabear2]

Fine, another topic I shall withdraw from

[david63]

40 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

Do P&O impose a requirement that those who are blind or visually impaired inform them before P&O decide to take their booking?

Not specifically before booking but page 10 of the On Board Needs Guide states:

 

"We understand that not all disabilities are visible and that autism, dementia, anxiety and a visual or hearing impairment may affect individuals differently. We need to be made aware of any such information in advance of your holiday for your own safety and enjoyment. It is your responsibility to highlight anything that may have an impact on your well-being, your behaviour and your all-round holiday enjoyment.

[Britboys]

2 hours ago, david63 said:

What is not clear in the article is whether the travel agent was a general travel agent or a specialist cruise travel agent.

 

If it was a specialist cruise agent then I would have expected them to know that P&O, and all other cruise lines, have a specialist "accessibility" team (or whatever name it goes under) who they should have contacted before taking the booking.

 

If it was a general travel agent then maybe they were not aware of the accessibility team but whoever they spoke to at P&O should have been aware and transferred the call to that team for clarification.

 

As with all these types of incidents we don't know the full story - only the bits that the press want us to know without spoiling their story.

 

One other point could be that the travel agent was more concerned with getting a booking (targets, commission) than anything else.

From the embedded video, it seems that they booked at a local high street TA which is part of (probably) the biggest national chain...

[Expat Cruise]

Maybe his happened because they used a travel agent vs. booking direct?  We're never been a fan of using TA for Cruising. Cruising for over 55 years and the last 40 years have not used them. Maybe the TA didn't supply complete information to the cruise line. 

 

That said, once the cruise line accepted the booking, they became responsible for supplying these two ladies with the cruise they paid for. From a public relations standpoint, this is the worst outcome. I do not know the laws in place in the United Kingdom, but in the US, PO would have major legal issues here.  

 

In my opinion, the Captain and Hotel Director have a lot of explaining to do to corporate, if they even still have jobs in the end.  It would have been easy to fix this issue, if it really was a safety issue assign crew members to be available to escort them around the ship. It would have cost P&O nothing really and saved them thousands in bad PR. If a legal claim is filed, it could cost them far more

[david63]

57 minutes ago, Britboys said:

it seems that they booked at a local high street TA which is part of (probably) the biggest national chain...

But it does not mean that they dealt with a cruise specialist

[daiB]

58 minutes ago, Britboys said:

From the embedded video, it seems that they booked at a local high street TA which is part of (probably) the biggest national chain...

Which for cruising are next to usless. We used them for our first 4/5 cruises but by then I knew more than them. Changed to a cruise specialist.

[david63]

4 minutes ago, Expat Cruise said:

they became responsible for supplying these two ladies with the cruise they paid for.

Not if they did not comply with the requirements of the cruise line to inform them of their disability.

[daiB]

7 minutes ago, Expat Cruise said:

Maybe his happened because they used a travel agent vs. booking direct?  We're never been a fan of using TA for Cruising. Cruising for over 55 years and the last 40 years have not used them. Maybe the TA didn't supply complete information to the cruise line. 

 

That said, once the cruise line accepted the booking, they became responsible for supplying these two ladies with the cruise they paid for. From a public relations standpoint, this is the worst outcome. I do not know the laws in place in the United Kingdom, but in the US, PO would have major legal issues here.  

 

In my opinion, the Captain and Hotel Director have a lot of explaining to do to corporate, if they even still have jobs in the end.  It would have been easy to fix this issue, if it really was a safety issue assign crew members to be available to escort them around the ship. It would have cost P&O nothing really and saved them thousands in bad PR. If a legal claim is filed, it could cost them far more

Wrong it is down to the TA.

[Selbourne]

10 minutes ago, Expat Cruise said:

Maybe his happened because they used a travel agent vs. booking direct?  We're never been a fan of using TA for Cruising. Cruising for over 55 years and the last 40 years have not used them. Maybe the TA didn't supply complete information to the cruise line. 

 

That said, once the cruise line accepted the booking, they became responsible for supplying these two ladies with the cruise they paid for. From a public relations standpoint, this is the worst outcome. I do not know the laws in place in the United Kingdom, but in the US, PO would have major legal issues here.  

 

In my opinion, the Captain and Hotel Director have a lot of explaining to do to corporate, if they even still have jobs in the end.  It would have been easy to fix this issue, if it really was a safety issue assign crew members to be available to escort them around the ship. It would have cost P&O nothing really and saved them thousands in bad PR. If a legal claim is filed, it could cost them far more

It is actually the passenger’s responsibility to complete the Accessibility Needs questionnaire, not the TA or P&O. As with all press articles, this will only be part of the story. I don’t wish to appear insensitive, but my hunch is that the ladies may have been

at fault here, not P&O. 

[lincslady]

It seems that these ladies did get on board, and were subsequently asked to leave the ship.   This suggests that for whatever reason the Captain and staff felt that they should not stay on board.  Without knowing the facts, we can only speculate, so maybe in time we will find out the truth of what happened, but until then it is sensible to stop guessing.