Withdrawing Daily Auto Gratuity fees onboard

[rodndonna]

25 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

Nor am I personally responsible for topping up his wages. I do give extra when I am pleased; and give some when nothing has gone wrong.

 

You keep ignoring the fact that the crew compensation is via "gratuities" rather than salary as it is beneficial from a tax perspective providing them with higher compensation at a reduced cost to us. 

 

Clearly, it seems to work well as the majority of cruise lines use  this policy and the majority of guests are OK with it.

 

As long as your definition of "topping  up" is in addition to daily grats, great, otherwise you are undercutting crew and trying to justify it because you don't like the cruise line compensation model. 

[Genghis Khan]

I never complain about anything within earshot of the crew or they'll spit in your food...or worse.

Edited February 10 by Genghis Khan

[CruiserBruce]

43 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

Companies need funds from customers. Its management's responsibility to offer the right services and build the right capacity/quality that makes the company profitable. As a pax, I expect HAL to make things work. I don't go after some 18-year old from Jakarta.

 

 

You forgot what many think is the most important "right"...at the right price.

[Blackduck59]

10 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

That's very generous. I'll follow your example, if the employee performs well.

 

Glad to hear that HAL will allow staff to keep their tips. Makes no sense for staff to hand their tips back into the pool. The tips are a personal gift from pax to server. The choice made by the giver.

 

Some are rightly concerned that the total compensation received by the crew will be less if we withhold the gratuity. Well, it won't be if HAL makes up the difference and we donate the full amount to deserving employees.

 

I'm just surprised that there's so much controversy on the issue. Ultimately, the reason for giving is a personal matter. I can't walk in your shoes, and vice versa.

 

 

Please do get with the program, if the guest removes the auto gratuities the name goes on a list. You will probably get the bare minimum of service. If this bare minimum meets your approval, you may give the person some token amount. Keep in mind that if that crew member does not turn in your cash gesture it is grounds for dismissal. People who remove the auto gratuities and then hand out cash thinking they are being big heroes are just making a pain in the a** for the crew. Better to leave the auto gratuities and keep your cash. Many people leave the gratuities in place and also give cash (which the crew member can then keep). So those that remove the auto gratuities, you be you, lucky thing for the poorly paid crew you are in the minority.

Edited February 10 by Blackduck59

[DCThunder]

40 minutes ago, RynoWally said:

Can't wait until I have my rotator cuff surgery next fall and along with paying my deductible there is a separate line for tipping the surgeon and staff for services rendered.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!  I have no clue what point you are trying to make.

[RynoWally]

14 minutes ago, DCThunder said:

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!  I have no clue what point you are trying to make.

Iykyk, not meant for everyone, savvy?

[HappyInVan]

23 minutes ago, rodndonna said:

 

You keep ignoring the fact that the crew compensation is via "gratuities" rather than salary as it is beneficial from a tax perspective providing them with higher compensation at a reduced cost to us. 

 

Clearly, it seems to work well as the majority of cruise lines use  this policy and the majority of guests are OK with it.

 

As long as your definition of "topping  up" is in addition to daily grats, great, otherwise you are undercutting crew and trying to justify it because you don't like the cruise line compensation model. 

 

AFAIK, the lowest tax rate in Indonesia is 5%. Will it make a great difference to your steward? Doesn't cash always work best in the service industry?

 

It may be imposed by the majority of  cruise lines, and there are significant numbers who choose to withhold and distribute. As long as it can be withheld, it remains within the  pax's discretion.

 

It would be different if it was a mandatory service charge. But, that would be included in the cruise fare, and compared with the companies who don't have a service charge.

 

No, HAL is very skilled at mind games. Pax are made to feel responsible for the company's duty to pay a fair wage. How can any pax deny the gratuity to those poor hard working people?

 

In addition, there is the implied threat that pax will appear on a blacklist to be punished by the crew!!!

 

I know that pax enjoy great value on HAL. They can't eat at home for what they paid as cruise fare!!!! Well, I would suggest that these pax should top up the crew's pool to the value that they received. Think of the poor families back in Indonesia etc.

 

FYI, Ponant and MSC YC have been able to rise their prices. Explora is pricing itself like the old Crystal. This year, I will be sailing on all three. I've had enough of McDonalds. I'll let you sort it out with the crew.

 

 

 

[Fouremco]

15 minutes ago, DCThunder said:

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!  I have no clue what point you are trying to make.

It appears that Wally thinks that ship's crew and surgeons work on the same pay scale, so if crew gets tips, surgeons should too. 🙄

[kazu]

Perhaps this story will explain things clearly.  

 

A few years ago when I was still sailing with DD DH, I was in the Neptune Lounge to give the concierges my envelopes (yes I was tipping them) and the gentleman in the Penthouse Suite (now the Pinnacle) came storming in demanding that his HSC (now crew incentive) be removed as “he takes care of his people”

 

The concierge said she would take care of it sweetly to him and then I saw the look on her face before she could hide it.  To say she was crushed, horrified and disappointed all in one look would be an understatement.

 

The PS gentleman had interrupted me and she apologized.  I told her no problem - I just wanted to thank them and gave her the envelopes for the each of them.  The smile was unforgettable.

 

And yes, I agree with @HappyInVan let’s not forget how much it means to the families at home and top up our tips (assuming it’s warranted) but to make it work to those crew members’ advantage, we need to keep the crew incentive in place.  They deserve it.

[Roz]

I find it interesting that the only HAL ship I've had bad service on was the Rotterdam.  My sister and I sailed on it in 2022 and had the HIA package.  HAL didn't have to worry about us having 15 drinks because it was next to impossible to get waited on.  MDR service was very slow, and I figured out I needed to allow 2 hrs. if I wanted to see the show afterwards. 

 

So I don't doubt the OP's service experience.  Could there be something off with the Rotterdam's staffing or hotel management?  Possibly.  However, I don't think removing auto gratuities on future cruises is the way to handle the situation, and my sister and I left our tips in place. We did detail the problems we experienced on our survey. 

 

As far as telling someone they shouldn't sail HAL because of a bad onboard experience, I think that's rather extreme.  It can happen on any line.  

 

I'm not sure how one could attribute food poisoning (was it diagnosed as such in the medical clinic?) to a particular restaurant, unless there were other diagnosed cases on the ship among those who dined in the Pinnacle that same evening.  What food(s) caused the food poisoning?  Sometimes people are coming down with an intestinal virus, and then blame it on the last place or food they ate.  

Edited February 10 by Roz

[RynoWally]

6 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

It appears that Wally thinks that ship's crew and surgeons work on the same pay scale, so if crew gets tips, surgeons should too. 🙄

Thanks, that was the whole point of the analogy. Apparently receiving your gin and tonic or having turn down service is more important than having your kidney removed for gratuities, where does it end? Just because someone went to college for 8 years and gets paid more than a server at a lounge with no schooling, I'm supposed to feel guilty when they return with a receipt for my cocktail that already has 18% added to it when I don't write $1 in the tip amount? HAL needs to pay their employees what they are worth (and let them know when interviewing and hiring), plain and simple and pass it on to the consumer in their cruise fare right off the bat, stop passing it off under the guise of gratuities and the hope that they don't get taken off by the passenger. I spoke candidly with a couple of stewards as I gave them each $50 for a 7 day cruise(on top of the imposed gratuities) and honestly I felt bad for them. I felt they are being taken advantage of. Frankly, I don't even trust that HAL is forthright with their employees with the gratuities.

[Haljo1935]

1 hour ago, RynoWally said:

Can't wait until I have my rotator cuff surgery next fall and along with paying my deductible there is a separate line for tipping the surgeon and staff for services rendered.

Please don't give them any ideas. 🤔 I can just see the tip jar sitting on the gurney alongside your chart and tubes 🙄

Although, I  might be able to use my FSA card...

Edited February 10 by Haljo1935
Additional comment

[Mary229]

2 minutes ago, RynoWally said:

Thanks, that was the whole point of the analogy. Apparently receiving your gin and tonic or having turn down service is more important than having your kidney removed for gratuities, where does it end? Just because someone went to college for 8 years and gets paid more than a server at a lounge with no schooling, I'm supposed to feel guilty when they return with a receipt for my cocktail that already has 18% added to it when I don't write $1 in the tip amount? HAL needs to pay their employees what they are worth (and let them know when interviewing and hiring), plain and simple and pass it on to the consumer in their cruise fare right off the bat, stop passing it off under the guise of gratuities and the hope that they don't get taken off by the passenger. I spoke candidly with a couple of stewards as I gave them each $50 for a 7 day cruise(on top of the imposed gratuities) and honestly I felt bad for them. I felt they are being taken advantage of. Frankly, I don't even trust that HAL is forthright with their employees with the gratuities.

You and I have had very different conversations with crew. I know crew members who have been with HAL for over 20 years and I mean bartenders, stewards and waiters and they all seemed intelligent and sane,  I don’t think they would be there for that long of service if they were being abused. 

[RynoWally]

4 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

You and I have had very different conversations with crew. I know crew members who have been with HAL for over 20 years and I mean bartenders, stewards and waiters and they all seemed intelligent and sane,  I don’t think they would be there for that long of service if they were being abused. 

Abused? Such a harsh and misguided word for the circumstances. Taken advantage of is how I would word it, and it was only about 6 out of the 40 + stewards that we have encountered, but still, enough to warrant concern.

[DCThunder]

50 minutes ago, RynoWally said:

Iykyk, not meant for everyone, savvy?

Ok, bro.  Whatever you say...

[Real NHDOC]

8 minutes ago, RynoWally said:

Abused? Such a harsh and misguided word for the circumstances. Taken advantage of is how I would word it, and it was only about 6 out of the 40 + stewards that we have encountered, but still, enough to warrant concern.

Exploited might be a reasonable term. HAL (and the other lines) take advantage of the low wages prevailing in parts of the world they recruit in. Furthermore, HAL’s history of colonialism in Indonesia makes their “relationship” particularly fraught with issues. Having said that the opportunity to earn much more money than they’d have the opportunity to in their home countries makes the backbreaking Herculean tasks they perform cruise after cruise worth doing. So it’s a win-win, in that respect. But they are exploited. And that’s why I feel they deserve the crew incentive plus extra cash. It’s a way to recognize some of the big picture and how lucky we are to benefit from it. 

Edited February 10 by Real NHDOC

[bobomonkeyrage]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

 

AFAIK, the lowest tax rate in Indonesia is 5%. Will it make a great difference to your steward? Doesn't cash always work best in the service industry?

 

It may be imposed by the majority of  cruise lines, and there are significant numbers who choose to withhold and distribute. As long as it can be withheld, it remains within the  pax's discretion.

 

It would be different if it was a mandatory service charge. But, that would be included in the cruise fare, and compared with the companies who don't have a service charge.

 

No, HAL is very skilled at mind games. Pax are made to feel responsible for the company's duty to pay a fair wage. How can any pax deny the gratuity to those poor hard working people?

 

In addition, there is the implied threat that pax will appear on a blacklist to be punished by the crew!!!

 

I know that pax enjoy great value on HAL. They can't eat at home for what they paid as cruise fare!!!! Well, I would suggest that these pax should top up the crew's pool to the value that they received. Think of the poor families back in Indonesia etc.

 

FYI, Ponant and MSC YC have been able to rise their prices. Explora is pricing itself like the old Crystal. This year, I will be sailing on all three. I've had enough of McDonalds. I'll let you sort it out with the crew.

 

 

 

You seem like you'd be a fun person to be stuck at a party with... 

[RuthC]

5 hours ago, Mary229 said:

For us non-drinkers chocolate is a fine substitute. 

Even for those of us who have been known to take a nip or two. 

[HappyInVan]

3 hours ago, DCThunder said:

I have no clue what point you are trying to make.

 

I think that he's making a good point. People who are paid well enough don't expect gratuities; only gratitude.

 

The use of tipping will inevitably be fraught with complications and misunderstanding in a multicultural context. This is the choice made by HAL.

 

The problem from the pax POV is that the company is pointing the finger at pax. "They have the responsibility for topping up your pay!!!"

 

So, it is inevitable that the staff expects more compensation from the pax when the company squeezes them.

 

Actually, it is the company (not the pax) demanding that they do more work. So, the company should make them whole. Not a surprise that the more experienced and better crew will migrate away from CCL.

 

The company will have to rehire new recruits and train them. Or, retain substandard employees. No freebies here. Impossible to hide the deficiencies.

 

Why are companies reluctant to offer a suitable wage? HR has the propensity to try to under-rate a job. Offering minimal wage, when a skilled rate is needed. It looks better on the pro forma. The bosses can boast that costs are under control. 

 

The promises do suck in a lot of recruits from poor countries. Then, they discover what the job really means. Heck! If the company won't pay them enough, they'll try to squeeze more out of pax. I think that many of us have experienced this situation.

 

The moral of the story is that you get what you paid for. Some pax are comfortable with McDonalds. Its within their budget. But, HAL could be a lot better.

 

By the way, have you noticed that CCL is still trading at $15 while stock indices are at records.

 

Edited February 10 by HappyInVan

[rodndonna]

3 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

FYI, Ponant and MSC YC have been able to rise their prices. Explora is pricing itself like the old Crystal. This year, I will be sailing on all three. I've had enough of McDonalds. I'll let you sort it out with the crew.

 

 

It's not clear to me why you are spending so much time and effort on this thread trying effort to convert the rest of us? 

 

As we have all been stating on this thread... go on cruise lines that have policies you like .. and you now state you are doing that - great!

 

Why are you here trying to convert  others? Why can't you just accept that we are OK with HAL's crew compensation policy so we sail with them (hence we are the HAL forum).

 

Edit: I just checked you activity - stopped after 5 pages.... exclusively chatting on HAL  who you don't  like and not a single activity on your 3 other cruise lines that you are sailing on? I just don't get it ....???

Edited February 10 by rodndonna
more info

[RynoWally]

18 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

I think that he's making a good point. People who are paid well enough don't expect gratuities; only gratitude.

 

The use of tipping will inevitably be fraught with complications and misunderstanding in a multicultural context. This is the choice made by HAL.

 

The problem from the pax POV is that the company is pointing the finger at pax. "They have the responsibility for topping up your pay!!!"

 

So, it is inevitable that the staff expects more compensation from the pax when the company squeezes them.

 

Actually, it is the company (not the pax) demanding that they do more work. So, the company should make them whole. Not a surprise that the more experienced and better crew will migrate away from CCL.

 

The company will have to rehire new recruits and train them. Or, retain substandard employees. No freebies here. Impossible to hide the deficiencies.

 

Why are companies reluctant to offer a suitable wage? HR has the propensity to try to under-rate a job. Offering minimal wage, when a skilled rate is needed. It looks better on the pro forma. The bosses can boast that costs are under control. 

 

The promises do suck in a lot of recruits from poor countries. Then, they discover what the job really means. Heck! If the company won't pay them enough, they'll try to squeeze more out of pax. I think that many of us have experienced this situation.

 

The moral of the story is that you get what you paid for. Some pax are comfortable with McDonalds. Its within their budget. But, HAL could be a lot better.

 

By the way, have you noticed that CCL is still trading at $15 while stock indices are at records.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is very well said and thought out, I avoid spending much time in responses for the fear of someone adding no value with a "I would hate to be stuck with you at a party" or "I don't want you at my dining table" but I commend you with the educated response.

[rodndonna]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Frankly, I'm concerned about the hotel staff on the HAL ships. Lots of stress. Fortunately, the days of slavery are over. 

 

 

So when you were unhappy with your room steward's performance and you brought him to tears.... tat was somehow helpful for his stress level in your opinion? 

 

HAL is not unique in the way they compensate their crew. We are just off an NCL cruise last week and it has a similar compensation policy with daily grats, and crew are working every bit as hard as crew on HAL ..as are crew on Carnival, RCL, Celebrity, Princess ....so are you just on a mission to save HAL crew?

 

 

[rafinmd]

6 minutes ago, rodndonna said:

HAL is not unique in the way they compensate their crew. We are just off an NCL cruise last week and it has a similar compensation policy with daily grats, and crew are working every bit as hard as crew on HAL ..as are crew on Carnival, RCL, Celebrity, Princess ....so are you just on a mission to save HAL crew?

 

I will add that from my experience the crews on the luxury lines work largely the same hours as their mainstream compatriots.  In many cases there are no gratuities but of course the prices are a lot higher.  I think originally Crystal had a compensation package structured the same way although probably at higher levels.  When the change was made they were concerned that they would not get enough extra pay to cover the lost gratuities and extra taxes but it did work out.  I priced Explora and wow on the fares compared to HAL.  MSC has the same HSC as HAL  so I'm not sure what the attraction was there.

 

When Crystal went all inclusive I stopped tipping but started making a very similar contribution to the crew welfare fund.

 

@Crazy For Cats when I was on Rotterdam I was able to increase the HSC without any need for justification but that may vary by ship or even individual at the front desk.  I didn't realize HAL had a crew fund but I like it.

 

Roy

[HappyInVan]

2 hours ago, rodndonna said:

 

So when you were unhappy with your room steward's performance and you brought him to tears.... tat was somehow helpful for his stress level in your opinion? 

 

HAL is not unique in the way they compensate their crew. We are just off an NCL cruise last week and it has a similar compensation policy with daily grats, and crew are working every bit as hard as crew on HAL ..as are crew on Carnival, RCL, Celebrity, Princess ....so are you just on a mission to save HAL crew?

 

 

 

This individual was insubordinate. Normally, I wouldn't react to the mistakes made by a new recruit. But, this was an older man. I presume that he was one of the substandard workers left behind on HAL.

 

He certainly stood at attention as I walked by. He was not my steward on that trip.

 

No, I suspect that all the mass lines are pretty much the same. But, HAL is the only mass line that I am familiar with. IMHO, the so-called gratuity should be replaced by a wage increase throughout the industry. With guests tipping only for extra  services.

 

However, I wonder if the luxury lines compensate their hotel staff better. Certainly, the luxury ships have a more professional clientele and expect a higher standard from their crew.

[TAW1963]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

However, I wonder if the luxury lines compensate their hotel staff better. Certainly, the luxury ships have a more professional clientele and expect a higher standard from their crew.

As Abraham Lincoln once said, “better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and to remove all doubt.”