What is old

I see some cruisers referring to ships as old when their launch date was just 12-15 years ago.

I sailed on the SS France and thought she was just a beautiful ship and we had a great cruise. The dining room and international lounge were maybe the best at sea.

What is old to you and would you be hesitant to sale on a ship 15+ years young.:)

I see some cruisers referring to ships as old when their launch date was just 12-15 years ago.

 

I sailed on the SS France and thought she was just a beautiful ship and we had a great cruise. The dining room and international lounge were maybe the best at sea.

 

What is old to you and would you be hesitant to sale on a ship 15+ years young.:)

As long as the ship is well maintained I have no issue with the age.

Ships are such costly investments, I don't know of any cruiseline that would let a ship become a "rust-bucket"....and they do frequent updates on all of the ships......

We sailed on Holland America's Veendam last spring. It was first launched in 1996, so 17 years old at the time. Of course HAL has done some major work on the ship since then--as all cruise lines do. Everything was fine for us, although there was a burst pipe that affected some passenger cabins on another floor the last night of our cruise. That could happen on a ship of any age.

My first cruise was on the Carnivale in 1988. The ship was 32 years old at the time. Ironically, it ended up in India near the SS France to be broken apart for scrap.

I see some cruisers referring to ships as old when their launch date was just 12-15 years ago.

 

I sailed on the SS France and thought she was just a beautiful ship and we had a great cruise. The dining room and international lounge were maybe the best at sea.

 

What is old to you and would you be hesitant to sale on a ship 15+ years young.:)

One way to look at that would be through service life. In recent years RCI has been retiring ships from their fleet after about 20 - 25 years of service. They usually are sold and put into service elsewhere. These ships are well maintained an upgraded over the years and serve their new owners well. But if RCI elects to remove them in favor of the ever changing new ships, then that to me defines their view of a service life. And sold after a service life equates to old in my view.

What will be interesting to see moving forward, however, will be how extended to service life is with RCI ships since their revitalization program which has been a rather extensive - and relatively expensive - process to keep all their fleet more current with the newer launched Oasis class ships. Some of those ships are approaching 20 years old as well. My guess is they will push the retire dates more to the 25+ year side as a result.

But that being said and to your question, RCI's Grandeur of the Seas was launched 18 years ago in 1996. We were on her for her maiden voyage and again last year after her refurbishment. She is a very nice ship in excellent condition and we are sailing on her again this summer.

To most cruisers, old refers to the amenities onboard, and the condition of the cabins and public areas. Most ships are "refurbished", or have worn items renewed every 5 years at the drydocking. Most of the lines are "upgrading" their amenities every 10 years or so, so some may think a ship is "old" because she is due not only for refurbishing, but also for upgrading the amenities.

To me, old is refers to the structure of the ship. At 15 years old, the ship is in what we call the "3rd Special Survey" by the class society. At this point, the inspections of the steel of the ship (not just hull, but decks, tanks, etc) become much more intensive (including x-raying of welds, and ultrasonic thickness testing), and this results in the company having to start serious steel renewals when in drydock. This is what drives the major lines to sell their older ships (15-20 year) to other lines (maybe even a sister line) that has a different profit margin, and can accept the higher maintenance costs.

Older ships, like the France (Norway), or the QE2 were built with different steel than todays ships. The older steel was not as strong, so more of it was needed (thicker plates), so the steel could last a lot longer. Look at the United States. Her hull is in extremely good condition for a ship that is 60+ years old.

Age is largely a number. Given competent operation and good routine maintenance, 20 years does not make a ship "old". Cruise lines have recently been on a build-them-bigger binge; recognizing that the same number of deck and engineering officers can man a 5,000 pax ship as an 800 one - they are after more profitable operation.

20 years is by no means "old" as an objective standard. The carrier, USS Nimitz, entered active service in 1975, and is still serving at 39 years old.

Unfortunately, some of the newer SOLAS requirements have made retrofitting some older ships with the required updates not cost effective. It's too bad and I LOVED some of the older liners, many of which I've sailed on. Now, it's from an even older and long gone era, but if you have ever been to San Diego and been on the "Queen Mary", even though it has been largely bastardized, the magnificent public rooms, beautiful wood paneling (no longer allowed) and many other features are of an era no more. Up until the early 70's or so, the ship were truly grand. They even looked so much more regal than the new ones with stacks on stacks of decks of balcony cabins.

20 years is by no means "old" as an objective standard. The carrier, USS Nimitz, entered active service in 1975, and is still serving at 39 years old.

I served on her sister ship the Eisenhower and it was quite a shock to realize how old those two are now.

Looking back, I believe the oldest active cruise ship is the Marco Polo, 50 years old on 26 April. Originally the Aleksandr Pushkin.

Unfortunately, some of the newer SOLAS requirements have made retrofitting some older ships with the required updates not cost effective. It's too bad and I LOVED some of the older liners, many of which I've sailed on. Now, it's from an even older and long gone era, but if you have ever been to San Diego and been on the "Queen Mary", even though it has been largely bastardized, the magnificent public rooms, beautiful wood paneling (no longer allowed) and many other features are of an era no more. Up until the early 70's or so, the ship were truly grand. They even looked so much more regal than the new ones with stacks on stacks of decks of balcony cabins.

Queen Mary is in Long Beach. Next to the Carnival (formerly Spruce Goose) Dome. ;)

The QM suites are almost all wood. Very Beautiful.

The USS Midway is berthed in San Diego. Not much pretty wood on that ship.

This is good info for newbies who may think that a ship 10+ years is too old.

Some of my best deals have been on "older"ships. Yes, they may not have all the bells and whistles but the beauty and service is still there.

To most cruisers, old refers to the amenities onboard, and the condition of the cabins and public areas. Most ships are "refurbished", or have worn items renewed every 5 years at the drydocking. Most of the lines are "upgrading" their amenities every 10 years or so, so some may think a ship is "old" because she is due not only for refurbishing, but also for upgrading the amenities.

 

To me, old is refers to the structure of the ship. At 15 years old, the ship is in what we call the "3rd Special Survey" by the class society. At this point, the inspections of the steel of the ship (not just hull, but decks, tanks, etc) become much more intensive (including x-raying of welds, and ultrasonic thickness testing), and this results in the company having to start serious steel renewals when in drydock. This is what drives the major lines to sell their older ships (15-20 year) to other lines (maybe even a sister line) that has a different profit margin, and can accept the higher maintenance costs.

 

Older ships, like the France (Norway), or the QE2 were built with different steel than todays ships. The older steel was not as strong, so more of it was needed (thicker plates), so the steel could last a lot longer. Look at the United States. Her hull is in extremely good condition for a ship that is 60+ years old.

that's really interesting. I never knew they stayed ships and such. Thanks! :)

Looking back, I believe the oldest active cruise ship is the Marco Polo, 50 years old on 26 April. Originally the Aleksandr Pushkin.

I sailed on Marco Polo, Istanbul to Athens in 1996 when she was with Orient line- she was an ideal size ship - none of today's bells and whistles, but good service, and small enough to get into many smaller Aegean Sea ports.

How old is "old" for a cruise ship today?

You can ask the very same question for an automobile or an airplane.

And get the very same answer.

There are some beautiful vintage autos out there these days, but not very many.

Most old autos are rust buckets that are falling apart.

Their owners did not see any wisdom in spending large amounts of money to maintain them in pristine condition for all these years.

There are some beautiful old Boeing 707's still around.

Would you like to fly on one for your next vacation?

Some people might say "Yes". Most of us would prefer to fly on something a bit more modern.

With today's modern building methods, a cruise ship starts to show her age after 10 years. Equipment starts wearing out. Water pipes start breaking. Aircon fails more often. Engines are no longer fuel efficient. Vacuum toilets fail more often. Electrical systems succumb to the salt air and high humidity. Some of these things can be fixed, replaced, or re-furbished. Some cannot.

Some are just too expensive to fix properly.

Those passengers who are so in love with smaller, older ships are the first to scream the longest and the loudest when their cabin carpet is soaked from a burst pipe, or the cabin is too warm when the A/C fails, or the toilet won't flush, or the dining room service is too slow because when we built the ship 20 years ago, we didn't anticipate needing an additional 50 crew beds to accommodate all the new onboard positions that were added over the past 2 decades (and removed waiters to make room for them).

Those passengers who are so in love with smaller, older ships are the first to scream the longest and the loudest when their cabin carpet is soaked from a burst pipe, or the cabin is too warm when the A/C fails, or the toilet won't flush, or the dining room service is too slow because when we built the ship 20 years ago, we didn't anticipate needing an additional 50 crew beds to accommodate all the new onboard positions that were added over the past 2 decades (and removed waiters to make room for them).

Just what makes you think that people who appreciate traditional ships are going to "...scream the longest and the loudest,,,"? Your comment about adding 50 crew beds and removing waiters to make room for them simply does not make sense. Where did the removed waiters sleep before they were removed?

My first cruise was on the SS Norway 1997 and she was a beautiful old lady.

Those passengers who are so in love with smaller, older ships are the first to scream the longest and the loudest when their cabin carpet is soaked from a burst pipe, or the cabin is too warm when the A/C fails, or the toilet won't flush, or the dining room service is too slow because when we built the ship 20 years ago, we didn't anticipate needing an additional 50 crew beds to accommodate all the new onboard positions that were added over the past 2 decades (and removed waiters to make room for them).

Just what makes you think that people who appreciate traditional ships are going to "...scream the longest and the loudest,,,"? Your comment about adding 50 crew beds and removing waiters to make room for them simply does not make sense. Where did the removed waiters sleep before they were removed?

What makes me think that is the 10 years I spent managing smaller older ships for several mass market cruise lines.

My comment about needing to add crew beds - and removing waiters - does not make sense to someone who does not work on ships. Quite frankly it doesn't make much sense to those of us who do work on ships.

ALL the cruise lines design and build ships based on current operational needs. We always build just enough beds to accommodate the number of crew we need today, to operate the ship. We all know that as the ship gets older and the cruise industry changes and develops, we will have to add more crew to handle the changes and new developments. But we never think to add more crew beds today, to handle the additional crew needed in future.

On a larger ship, this is not so much a problem. Later on, we can always find more space to shoehorn in some additional new crew cabins.

But on the older smaller ships, there is no more space available. Even if there was, the smaller physical plants onboard are not able to service more A/C, ventilation, water, power, and other requirements for more crew cabins.

What can we do?

We are legally required to add more Engineers and Nautical staff. Our onboard revenue people keep adding more revenue opportunities that require additional staff.

So we add those required staff.

But the only places for them to sleep are already occupied.

So we start removing waiters and cabin stewards to make room for the newly added crew.

Looking back, I believe the oldest active cruise ship is the Marco Polo, 50 years old on 26 April. Originally the Aleksandr Pushkin.

Not true.

I sailed on the Lewis R French a few years ago. She is 143 years old -

"Launched in April 1871, the French is a National Historic Landmark and the oldest commercial sailing vessel in the U.S. "

However, she is a sailboat w/o power.

Also, how about the Sea Cloud owned by Sea Cloud Cruises. She was built in 1931 which makes her 83 years old.

BTW - I also drive a 55 year old sports car (a bugeye Austin Healey Sprite) so I guess I just like old stuff.

DON

Those passengers who are so in love with smaller, older ships are the first to scream the longest and the loudest when their cabin carpet is soaked from a burst pipe, or the cabin is too warm when the A/C fails, or the toilet won't flush, or the dining room service is too slow because when we built the ship 20 years ago, we didn't anticipate needing an additional 50 crew beds to accommodate all the new onboard positions that were added over the past 2 decades (and removed waiters to make room for them).

 

Just what makes you think that people who appreciate traditional ships are going to "...scream the longest and the loudest,,,"? Your comment about adding 50 crew beds and removing waiters to make room for them simply does not make sense. Where did the removed waiters sleep before they were removed?

They don't hot rack;).

Not true.

 

I sailed on the Lewis R French a few years ago. She is 143 years old -

 

"Launched in April 1871, the French is a National Historic Landmark and the oldest commercial sailing vessel in the U.S. "

 

However, she is a sailboat w/o power.

 

Also, how about the Sea Cloud owned by Sea Cloud Cruises. She was built in 1931 which makes her 83 years old.

 

BTW - I also drive a 55 year old sports car (a bugeye Austin Healey Sprite) so I guess I just like old stuff.

 

DON

I stand corrected, though in truth I did not search for sailing vessels, even ones with engines that makes them "motor vessels".

Queen Mary is in Long Beach. Next to the Carnival (formerly Spruce Goose) Dome. ;)

The QM suites are almost all wood. Very Beautiful.

 

The USS Midway is berthed in San Diego. Not much pretty wood on that ship.

We stayed one night on the QM and I don't remember much wood in the stateroom (Only 1st class have been made into hotel rooms).

I do remember the portholes (NOT windows) were too high to see out of, and the bathroom was as large as some staterooms I've been in.

I had my son-in -law and his brother on my fishing boat when we had a WWII carrier in a dock nearby while some tried to get funding to preserve it. We could not believe it was so small!! How did they ever fly off and land on that deck??

True heroes in WWII! Thank you!!

I sailed to the U S in 1951 on the Queen Mary . It was Feb. and the seas were very ruff. 'Twas a very long time ago.lol

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Those passengers who are so in love with smaller, older ships are the first to scream the longest and the loudest when their cabin carpet is soaked from a burst pipe, or the cabin is too warm when the A/C fails, or the toilet won't flush, or the dining room service is too slow because when we built the ship 20 years ago, we didn't anticipate needing an additional 50 crew beds to accommodate all the new onboard positions that were added over the past 2 decades (and removed waiters to make room for them).

I suspect your years of service have left you affected by the vocal minority of complainers, and not the silent majority of folks who like to sail the older, smaller ships. These ships would not continue to exist if there wasn't such a group of people willing (and eager) to sail on them. A Princess staffer told me years ago that it's the larger, newer ships subsidizing the older and smaller ones of the fleet, despite the usually higher fare to sail on them. I'm sure Princess management would rather get ride of them. But a certain group like them and choose to sail on them.

I can assure you I love the smaller ships. And neither you nor anyone else heard me scream when my cabin on an old (1973) small ship was flooded last year on my return from dinner. Why did I not get upset? Because the situation was dealt with so well. There was no hesitation -- the hotel manager was waiting for me, he immediately told me I was being moved to a different cabin, and with the assistance of several staff I was completely transferred within a half hour.

This never seems to happen anymore on "newer, bigger" ships. There is no ability to make a decision/take action without consulting 8 levels of management and the home office first.

So....not only was there no screaming, but I have booked two more cruises (in addition to four already completed) on this little, old ship with no casino, no production shows, no specialty dining, and one small pool. Long may she cruise the seas.

I love old ships, and in the 90's and early 2000s I had the chance to go on a number of them; SS Independence, SS Norway, and the SS Rembrandt.

That last one had been the SS Rotterdam with HAL, but had been sold to Premier cruise lines and renamed. It was the best example of how ships used to look on the inside; especially the distinction between 1st and 2nd class. While the Rembrandt was single class, you could still see how the 2 classes had been separated. It also showed how ships decour evolved; most of the public spaces were traditionally styled, but one of the lounges felt like you were walking into the middle of a mid century nuclear reactor!

Dores any one know if the MV Azores is still sailing? She was built in 1948 as the Stockholm (yes - the one that collided with the Andria Doria)?

Aloha,

John