Just wondering - airfare to Europe

[Gardyloo]

Now....going to ExpertFlyer, I did searches for those fares in their fare information section. For none of the three segments, did any of those fares show up as a published fare in the GDS system. Which means, they are almost certainly.....non-published fares, aka negotiated/bulk/consolidator...

 

Is this inherently "bad"? The answer is "well, kinda". I say that because of the unknown factor of just what ARE the rules for these tickets. The DL computers would have the data, but because of the unpublished nature, they aren't distributed to the public, as would be for published fares.

And if we can't see them without having access to a GDS and/or Delta's internal IT world, how in blazes can any average consumer know what's in them? This makes it even worse; it sets up a Jack-in-the-Box outcome if things do go sideways.

 

"Take our word for it, this is the only option you have."

 

"Can I please see the rules covering my trip?"

 

"No."

[greatam]

our choice air flight coming up in march:

 

Per Passenger Billing and Ticketing Information

FARE DETAILS: MLI DL X/ATL DL MIAxxx.09KA14A0VA DL ATLxxx.30LA14A0NJ DL MLIxxx.30TD21A0QA USDxxx.69END ZP MLI3.90ATL3.90MIA3.90ATL3.90XF MLI4.5ATL4.5MIA4.5ATL4.5

Fare: XXX.69 USD

Taxes/Carrier-Imposed Fees: XX.91

Subtotal Per Passenger: XXX.60 USD

Paid with UATP ending 0016

Detailed Tax Information

AY 10.00

US 44.31

XF 18.00

ZP 15.60

Total: 87.91

Total

Fare: xxx.38 USD

Taxes/Carrier-Imposed Fees: xxx.82

Total: xxx.20 USD

 

NON-REFUNDABLE / CHANGE FEE

When using certain vouchers to purchase tickets, remaining credits may not be refunded. Additional charges and/or credits may apply and are displayed in the sections below.

 

This ticket is non-refundable unless issued at a fully refundable fare. Any change to your itinerary may require payment of a change fee and increased fare. Failure to appear for any flight without notice to Delta will result in cancellation of your remaining reservation.

 

All Economy Comfort and Preferred seats are Nonrefundable.

____

I don't know if this is the "entire" info you mean, but it is what I can see on delta.com.

 

There are a lot of "codes" in there...not sure if they mean anything or not.

 

I'm going to make an educated guess that your tickets are NON PUBLISHED fare tickets. There is no money shown other than a few cents in the first part of your ticket which should show the full base fare. Just taxes and fees are displayed. Booking codes are displayed in a GDS with PUBLISHED fare tickets (note booking code V below)

 

A published fare ticket (and I used MLI to ATL to MIA in March) looks like this as a general rule:

 

Fare 1: Carrier DL VF30A0NQ MLI to MIA (rules)

Passenger type ADT, round trip fare, booking code V

Covers MLI-ATL (Economy), ATL-MIA (Economy)

$115.82

Fare 2: Carrier DL VF30A0NQ MIA to MLI (rules)

Passenger type ADT, round trip fare, booking code V

Covers MIA-ATL (Economy), ATL-MLI (Economy)

$115.81

US Transportation Tax (US) $17.37

US September 11th Security Fee (AY) $10.00

US Passenger Facility Charge (XF) $18.00

US Flight Segment Tax (ZP) $16.00

 

Subtotal per passenger $293.00

Number of passengers x1

 

Total airfare & taxes $293.00

 

This ticket is non-refundable.

Changes to this ticket will incur a penalty fee.

 

Fare construction (can be useful to travel agents)

MLI DL X/ATL DL MIA 115.82VF30A0NQ DL X/ATL DL MLI 115.81VF30A0NQ USD 231.63 END ZP MLI ATL MIA ATL XT 17.37US 16.00ZP 10.00AY 18.00XF MLI4.50 ATL4.50 MIA4.50 ATL4.50

 

And on regular, PUBLISHED Fare ticket the RULES appear or you have access to them via a link. Could you see all the RULES with your Choice Air ticket on either Choice Air or Delta? The rules for the above PUBLISHED fare ticket include ENDORSEMENT AND RE-Routing.

 

Maybe someone with better knowledge of how Delta internal coding works can decipher better but the big CLUE is NO PRICE in the ticketing section.

 

Ok, Delta fliers, am I wrong???

 

PS-I did go back and look at our office SABRE. Couldn't find them either so almost 100 per certain the tickets were a NON PUBLISHED fare with rules that can be anything and everything the cruise line and airline agreed to more than a year in advance when the cruise line purchased the tickets on contract.

 

I wish you well and NO GLITCHES in your travels.

Edited January 7, 2014 by greatam

[greatam]

I wish you well and NO GLITCHES in your travels.

 

 

Thank you, dodger1964, for providing your ticketing information with your Choice Air tickets.

 

I am simply astounded that all the Choice Air cheerleaders haven't tried to refute what was proven when both Flyertalker and I did research into at least three commonly used information sources (Expertflyer-paid service, ITA-free to all and SABRE-paid service used by travel agents and industry that needs the info) to find those fare codes provided by dodger1964.

 

And the really sad thing is a purchaser can't see those fare codes BEFORE they buy the ticket or they would KNOW what they were purchasing.

[kenish]

@dodger1964- Good on you...AFAIK you're the first person to ever post the full and complete fare code for a Choice Air ticket. But the fare rules seem to be very elusive. As an experiment, can you email Delta with the fare codes and ask for the *complete* fare rules on each? Delta's reply could be very interesting and informative.

[greatam]

It has now been 4 days since the post CONFIRMING the ticket that dodger1964 has is a consolidator/bulk purchase/negotiated ticket (what every you want to call it-NON PUBLISHED FARE ticket-NOT the same as you get from the airline because you CANNOT read the fare rules).

 

Are all the Choice Air cheerleaders rethinking all the posts about the FARE RULES with these tickets???

 

Or are they just going merrily along their way BELIEVING all the BS and attorney "weasel words" on the Choice Air website?

 

Seems really strange to me that NO ONE has refuted what we posted.

 

What about it cruising grandma??? You were the most vocal on this thread that told all of us FF that we didn't know what we were talking about.

[yvonneh]

After reading all of these very informative posts, I am a bit confused.

If I can get the same exact flights and the same price through the airline's website as through Choice Air, would I be more wise to purchase via the airline?

I have never used Choice Air but will have very short connections.

Please let me know your thoughts as prices dropped today.

Thank you!!!

[Zach1213]

After reading all of these very informative posts, I am a bit confused.

If I can get the same exact flights and the same price through the airline's website as through Choice Air, would I be more wise to purchase via the airline?

I have never used Choice Air but will have very short connections.

Please let me know your thoughts as prices dropped today.

Thank you!!!

 

Yes. In my mind, booking with the airline is always the best bet. The fewer people you have between you and the airline (in that case, zero) the better. That's my thought, at least.

[cruising grandma]

After reading all of these very informative posts, I am a bit confused.

If I can get the same exact flights and the same price through the airline's website as through Choice Air, would I be more wise to purchase via the airline?

I have never used Choice Air but will have very short connections.

Please let me know your thoughts as prices dropped today.

Thank you!!!

 

 

I have only booked Choice Air for one way flights to/from Europe for transatlantic cruises. They are MUCH cheaper through Choice Air for the same flight. I do find better pricing for travel in the USA on my own, whether one way or round trip.

[greatam]

After reading all of these very informative posts, I am a bit confused.

If I can get the same exact flights and the same price through the airline's website as through Choice Air, would I be more wise to purchase via the airline?

I have never used Choice Air but will have very short connections.

Please let me know your thoughts as prices dropped today.

Thank you!!!

 

In addition to the advise Zach1213 posted about being able to deal directly with the airline if there are problems and not having to go through a middleman, you will actually KNOW what you are purchasing. Published fare tickets purchased direct through airlines offer a link to the FARE RULES if you care to read them which are often very, very different with Choice Air tickets (which you can't read most of the time).

 

As was proven when dodger1964 posted the entire ticketing information with his Choice Air ticket, he actually purchased a consolidator/negotiated fare/bulk purchase ticket where the fare rules can be ANYTHING the cruise line and airline agree too. The two biggies that are usually missing in Choice Air tickets are ENDORSABILITY (CANNOT be used on another airline) and NON-REROUTABLE (means if you are routed JFK/ATL/MIA, you CANNOT be re-routed JFK/IAD/MIA even if that is the only way to get you to your cruise on time).

 

Stick with the airline direct purchased ticket.

[greatam]

They are MUCH cheaper through Choice Air for the same flight.

 

As Flyertalker posted, once you get out of the Delta/United/American mindset (which DO NOT SELL cheap ONE WAY tickets), there is an entire world of tickets sold on a PURE ONE WAY basis which compare very favorably with pricing on Choice Air. In addition, the flight experience is generally better, the connections are better and very often in much smaller airports (Iceland and Ireland) and foreign airlines tend to take MUCH better care of their passengers when there are glitches in travel. This is particularly true of the low cost European airlines as they have much stricter consumer protection rules than the US.

[FlyerTalker]

They are MUCH cheaper through Choice Air for the same flight.

And if you look closely that sentence sums up the whole question. For many, it's all about price and nothing but price. But though it is for the "same flight", you are not buying the "same ticket". You are buying a similar, yet significantly different product.

 

I've just now realized the near-perfect analogy.

 

There are a number of camera shops in NYC (and the Caribbean) that give great pricing. Especially on higher-end models. But you are not buying the same product as you would at home. You are getting "grey market" cameras with non-USA warranties. Same hardware but you don't have the protection of a USA warranty and USA service.

 

Now, if all goes well and the camera works fine, then you got a good deal. OTOH, if something breaks or malfunctions -- well, you can't send it back under the warranty and it's not registered for USA service.

 

You saved money and you got a camera. Physically, it was the same camera you could buy from Amazon. But, in reality, it wasn't - because there was no protection due to the behind-the-scenes paperwork for the hardware. There was more to the "camera" than just the hardware alone.

 

In effect, you sold off any claim to warranty and service for the price differential. With a bulk airline ticket, you have sold off your claims for endorsability and reroutabilty (and possibly more) for the price differential. And worst of all, with the airline ticket, you can't be fully aware of what you have sold off until after the non-refundable transaction has been completed. If then. It's like buying the camera, taking it home and opening it and then finding out it has no USA warranty. And the store offers no refunds.

 

Should you buy this camera? Completely depends on your own risk tolerance level and economic analysis. As long as you are making an informed, educated decision with knowledge of the facts - do whatever you wish. Just have your eyes open and know what you are doing.

[waterbug123]

I have only booked Choice Air for one way flights to/from Europe for transatlantic cruises. They are MUCH cheaper through Choice Air for the same flight. I do find better pricing for travel in the USA on my own, whether one way or round trip.

 

Cheaper ticket for the same flight does not equal same ticket for the same flight. Different rules and restrictions apply.

[Shak]

Does anyone know how many people actually miss the ship because they had cruise air?

 

Shak

[CruiserBruce]

Does anyone know how many people actually miss the ship because they had cruise air?

 

Shak

 

I don't think anybody misses a ship due to having Cruise Air, or for not having Cruise Air. They might miss the ship because the plane had mechanical issues, weather, etc. Also poor planning.

 

If you are asking how many miss the ship who had Cruise air, and found they were low man on the totem pole for resolving the reschedule...that is another subject. There was a very thorough post about this a while ago. A person ended up over 24 hours late to the port, and documented low priority for re-schedule.

[FlyerTalker]

Does anyone know how many people actually miss the ship because they had cruise air?

Absolutely no way to know that. First off, the only people who know how many people fail to board a ship are cruiselines themselves. In addition, they are the ones who would have sold the cruise air ticket. Thus, it becomes in their best interest to NOT divulge how many people may have missed a ship because of a cruise air problem.

 

Would they say how many people were afflicted with norovirus unless they were mandated to do so by the government?

 

So it becomes less of an statistical equation vs your risk relationship. One last thought problem: Assume no financial loss, and that's a big assumption predicated on having the correct and complete insurance coverage. How much value do you place on not missing your cruise vacation? The higher the value, the more important it is to take as many safeguards as possible.

 

Note that I say "safeguard" rather than "guarantee". Big difference, as NOTHING can guarantee. You could live across the street from the port and still miss it. Drive and your car won't start. Limo and the drivers go on strike. Walk and you get hit by a semi loaded with pallets of food you aren't going to have the chance to eat. You get the picture.

[Shak]

As of this moment there are 1,070,471 cruise critic members (the numbers are on the front page of Cruise Critic Message Board Forums). With that many members, in my experiences with these boards, that we would know if missing the ship was a problem for those that have cruise air.

 

Life is all about risks.

 

Shak

[yvonneh]

Why is it when I search for airfare, the more times I search my specific dates / destination the price keeps going up and up? This morning I found a fantastic deal for my upcoming cruise, and I searched it many times, to find the best connections, and now the one I decided on is outrageous! :mad:

Does anyone know?

[waterbug123]

As of this moment there are 1,070,471 cruise critic members (the numbers are on the front page of Cruise Critic Message Board Forums). With that many members, in my experiences with these boards, that we would know if missing the ship was a problem for those that have cruise air.

 

I'm sure many of those million+ members don't actively post. A % of others have probably heard the potential risks of booking cruise air, so don't want to tell people they accepted those risks and got burned.

[6rugrats]

Why is it when I search for airfare, the more times I search my specific dates / destination the price keeps going up and up? This morning I found a fantastic deal for my upcoming cruise, and I searched it many times, to find the best connections, and now the one I decided on is outrageous! :mad:

Does anyone know?

 

Because while you were searching, the tickets in that lower fare class sold out.

[cruising grandma]

As of this moment there are 1,070,471 cruise critic members (the numbers are on the front page of Cruise Critic Message Board Forums). With that many members, in my experiences with these boards, that we would know if missing the ship was a problem for those that have cruise air.

 

Life is all about risks.

 

Shak

 

 

I don't have answer to how many have missed cruises, but I had great flights in May and November using Choise Air. One was a United flight from Barcelona through Newark to Memphis after a transatlantic cruise and the other was a non stop Delta flight from Atlanta to Rome to embark on another transatlantic cruise. No problems with any of the flights.....guess I am one of the lucky ones!:p;):)

Edited January 18, 2014 by cruising grandma

[FlyerTalker]

Because while you were searching, the tickets in that lower fare class sold out.

DUH!!! You nailed that one!

 

For those who don't already know this....airline pricing is predominantly a factor of inventory management. Allocating xx number of seats to various fare buckets. When those seats are gone, unless there is some reason for the yield management algorithms to later change the allocation, they are GONE. Many airline seats, many different fare buckets. It is NOT that they are constantly changing "fares". It's just managing inventory. And until you understand the finite nature of inventory/yield management, you will continue to wonder "why'd the price go up?"

[waterbug123]

I don't have answer to how many have missed cruises, but I had great flights in May and November using Choise Air. One was a United flight from Barcelona through Newark to Memphis after a transatlantic cruise and the other was a non stop Delta flight from Atlanta to Rome to embark on another transatlantic cruise. No problems with any of the flights.....guess I am one of the lucky ones!:p;):)

 

Lucky? Not really. Considering that MOST flights are not cancelled and MOST flights are not significantly delayed, MOST people's flights work out just fine, as did yours. It's just that there's always a CHANCE of a problem occurring. Fly often enough and eventually the law of averages will sneak up and bite you. That's when you get to decide if those bargain tickets were really a bargain.

[iancal]

We booked air to Bangkok on Delta nine days ago. We leave tomorrow.

 

Here is Delta's fare code summary. We are on an inexpensive T class fare. What does that mean? Well for a starters, if you look at the chart below you will see

that we are 14th in the 'pecking' order. So if something screws up, those ahead of us with better fare codes and a higher pecking order will be taken care of first. Makes sense. Fortunately we are not taking a cruise so any delay is not an issue. There are a few below us in the pecking order-perhaps consolidator tickets.

 

One of the advantages of booking on line with say Delta or United vs booking with an on line consolidator is that you get to see what seats are available, and select, BEFORE you buy. In our case, we shopped for about five departure dates before we found seat availability that we liked. This is important to us as we have 2 long flights. Some of the days only had seat available in the middle of a four seat row, and never 2 together or even near each other. We do not want to find this out AFTER purchasing the tickets!

 

Our airfare was $1028 CAD return. Not certain if this is a good fare or a very good fare- or a not so good fare. I suspect that it is in between. But it was 'our number' so when it hit, and there was reasonable seat availability we committed. We never really look for the best fare-we look for a fare that we are comfortable with.

 

http://www.cwsi.net/delta.htm

Edited January 18, 2014 by iancal

[yvonneh]

DUH!!! You nailed that one!

 

For those who don't already know this....airline pricing is predominantly a factor of inventory management. Allocating xx number of seats to various fare buckets. When those seats are gone, unless there is some reason for the yield management algorithms to later change the allocation, they are GONE. Many airline seats, many different fare buckets. It is NOT that they are constantly changing "fares". It's just managing inventory. And until you understand the finite nature of inventory/yield management, you will continue to wonder "why'd the price go up?"

 

Thank you for your input. I obviously don't "understand the finite nature of inventory/yield management". That is why I asked the question. Your inventory management explanation makes much more sense to me than I have read about airlines hiking up the prices due to multiple searches.

 

Since you seem to be very knowledgable, I hope you don't kind me asking when do you think the best time is to buy an airline ticket? 3 months before? 4 months before? Or does it all come back to inventory and the airlines randomly selling the lower fare seats?

 

Thank you!

[waterbug123]

Since you seem to be very knowledgable, I hope you don't kind me asking when do you think the best time is to buy an airline ticket? 3 months before? 4 months before? Or does it all come back to inventory and the airlines randomly selling the lower fare seats?

 

Flyertalker will probably have a better answer but here's my attempt:

There is no magic time (i.e. 3 months before flight date, 4 months before, etc.) when tickets are at their lowest price. And airlines don't "randomly" sell lower fares. It may seem random to you when a fare seems to suddenly drop quickly, but you can be assured there's a reason for it. Maybe sales were at a lull, and the airline felt the need to offer an incentive to get the seats sold. Maybe another airline increased inventory for that itinerary/date and your airline decided to try harder in light of the additional competition. So yes, ultimately, it all comes back to inventory...supply and demand...econ 101. Hope that helps!