Please rename the HSC or even change the system

[avian777]

... So it seems the so called "tipping included" system has it's problems as well as the automatically added on system where issues like those experienced by the OP occur where he was unable to reward those who deserved it, and remove the gratuity from those who didn't!

 

I don't claim to have all (or even most) of the answers to this complex issue. However, we have come up with a solution that works for us and IMO is as fair as is humanly possible considering the myriad factors and forces at play. For a summary description of our plan, go to:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=47558364&postcount=35

 

Smooth sailing ...

[ICtheC]

I have always remembered what our room steward on Celebrity said to me

 

"A good report on my work is worth more to me than any tip you could give me"

[kazu]

I don't claim to have all (or even most) of the answers to this complex issue. However, we have come up with a solution that works for us and IMO is as fair as is humanly possible considering the myriad factors and forces at play. For a summary description of our plan, go to:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=47558364&postcount=35

 

Smooth sailing ...

 

I remember that post. I agree with the surveys. If you have good service then it is important to recognize those people by NAME on the survey. It's how they get ahead and means a LOT to them.

 

Your 10% idea I had a more difficult time with. On a 7 day cruise it amounts to very little extra overall and although we rarely do 7 day cruises, our cash tips over and above the HSC amount to more than 10 % when we did. In fact, when I calculated out our 30 day cruise, the same was true. We gave more in tips over and above than the 10% so we'll probably stick with what we do as it is nice to reward those that have made your cruise special. It's not hard to send a tip to the laundry room nor pass a tip in the Lido, to your stewards, your favourite bartender, etc., etc., etc.

 

But, that being said, it's certainly a nice idea to increase the tips and an easy way to do it ;)

Edited September 8, 2015 by kazu

[avian777]

... We gave more in tips over and above than the 10% so we'll probably stick with what we do as it is nice to reward those that have made your cruise special. ... But, that being said, it's certainly a nice idea to increase the tips and an easy way to do it ;)

 

... we actually tip more than the !0% (over and above the HSC) but I didn't want to come across as a cacafuego, so I merely used 10% as a hypothetical ...

Edited September 8, 2015 by avian777

[cruz chic]

I have always remembered what our room steward on Celebrity said to me

 

"A good report on my work is worth more to me than any tip you could give me"

 

They likely weren't talking about people that remove the hsc. It also doesn't mean that everyone feels that way.

[SetAnOpenCourse]

This thread reminds me to not go on my next cruise with expectations, and to try to be happy if the weather is decent and the cruise virus-free (treat other positives as added bonus).

 

The disappointment felt by the OP is understandable. One could make a $1 reduction to (hopefully) ensure that the complaint is addressed by someone, and for the reason, clearly state who disappointed you (otherwise the stateroom steward is the default party responsible, I presume). It could be stated also in a letter/email to HAL, especially if the disappointment was cause by front office/managers. By making the reduction only a token amount, the personnel who deserve their full share of the HSC are not penalized.

 

p.s. I've concluded that terse, authoritative replies sometimes found in this forum, which read as if transcribed from a placard taped to the wall of an elementary-school hallway, need to be read with a sense of humor.

Edited September 8, 2015 by SetAnOpenCourse

[hrhdhd]

See this is exactly the issue that those of us who come from countries where everyone is paid a decent liveable wage, don't understand. How is it possible that a very large sector of employed people (the hospitality industry) are legally paid less than the minimum wage??? Why is it a minimum wage for some but not for others?

 

Just like how in Australia different categories of workers can be paid differently, minimum wage or no.

 

http://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay/minimum-wages

[elusive_23]

I honestly thought the initial post was satire... until I got 3/4th of the way through. :eek:

 

I won't even begin to tell you how I really feel about this because I co-own a resort bar and have had far too many conversations about tipping and wages with people. :mad: We pay well above standard server's minimum wage plus they get their tips. We, as a business owner are expected to pay taxes on our server's claimed tips which I assume HAL is responsible in some way to pay/report the HSC and pay taxes on those as well. People like you are the reason why we pay our employees above minimum wage and another reason why I also have a 9-5 desk job. I assume you have never worked a day in your life in the service industry or retail. I'd like to see you be "ON" all the time and have to smile and greet everyone for 12-14 hours a day for an 8 month contract away from their family. Ship life is NOT easy. Service cannot be 100% perfect all the time. People have bad days, things go unnoticed or forgotten or don't wind up going up the chain to the proper person, or they realize what a big PITA someone is going to be and realize there is no placating them. I'm truly sorry you had a horrible experience on HAL but as others have stated things could have been prevented or quickly resolved in an efficient and most likely satisfactory manner by following the below suggestions:

 

1) If you are injured while onboard....have someone get a manager. Write up an injury report. DO NOT STAND AROUND IN THE LIDO...SIT DOWN TO WAIT FOR YOUR GROUP.

 

2) If your sheets are dirty have the steward change them....CALL HOUSEKEEPING. If the TV does not work properly....CALL THE FRONT DESK.

 

3) The people working on the ship are living where they work. IF THEY ARE NOT ON DUTY LEAVE THEM ALONE. If they want to chat let them come to you.

 

4) YOU ARE TOLD UPFRONT WHAT THE HOTEL SERVICE CHARGE IS. IT IS PART OF THE COST OF YOUR TRIP. Leave it alone. Can you remove the resort fee from a hotel visit on land?

 

If you have issues on the ship take it up with the department manager (you may have to bypass the front desk) if the issue is not resolved quickly and to your satisfaction. Then you can enjoy the rest of your trip.

 

As far as renaming HSC to something else... why when the name fits? You are on a FLOATING HOTEL and you are utilizing the all-inclusive SERVICES in that floating hotel which encompasses every staff member on board.

 

If you do choose to HAL again please keep in mind that your vacation is what YOU make of it and a positive attitude armed with the ability to seek out the proper help to get issues resolved can make your vacation much more enjoyable.

[kazu]

I honestly thought the initial post was satire... until I got 3/4th of the way through. :eek:

 

I won't even begin to tell you how I really feel about this because I co-own a resort bar and have had far too many conversations about tipping and wages with people. :mad: We pay well above standard server's minimum wage plus they get their tips. We, as a business owner are expected to pay taxes on our server's claimed tips which I assume HAL is responsible in some way to pay/report the HSC and pay taxes on those as well. People like you are the reason why we pay our employees above minimum wage and another reason why I also have a 9-5 desk job. I assume you have never worked a day in your life in the service industry or retail. I'd like to see you be "ON" all the time and have to smile and greet everyone for 12-14 hours a day for an 8 month contract away from their family. Ship life is NOT easy. Service cannot be 100% perfect all the time. People have bad days, things go unnoticed or forgotten or don't wind up going up the chain to the proper person, or they realize what a big PITA someone is going to be and realize there is no placating them. I'm truly sorry you had a horrible experience on HAL but as others have stated things could have been prevented or quickly resolved in an efficient and most likely satisfactory manner by following the below suggestions:

 

 

 

As far as renaming HSC to something else... why when the name fits? You are on a FLOATING HOTEL and you are utilizing the all-inclusive SERVICES in that floating hotel which encompasses every staff member on board.

 

If you do choose to HAL again please keep in mind that your vacation is what YOU make of it and a positive attitude armed with the ability to seek out the proper help to get issues resolved can make your vacation much more enjoyable.

 

What a great post!!! I too served in the service industry putting myself through University, and back in those days we were not paid well. (remember that was a LONG time ago).

 

We relied on our tips and I appreciated every single one. I know what it's like to greet a surly client and put a smile on my face and in reality at one resort I worked at, the most demanding clients left the least (if any) tips.

 

Just the same, I learned a lot that I took with me in life and learned a long time ago that a smile and a bit of courtesy gets you far when you have a problem ;)

[SoCal Cruiser78]

...How is it possible that a very large sector of employed people (the hospitality industry) are legally paid less than the minimum wage??? Why is it a minimum wage for some but not for others?

 

It seems to be a combination of tradition and politics. One restaurant I read of near us tried eliminating tips by raising prices and hourly wages accordingly, but met with resistance from the public as their menu prices then became higher than their competition as a result :rolleyes:.

[erewhon]

 

Saw lines wrapping around the deck once on a ship full of Austraiians and New Zealanders who do not have the tradition of tipping, so they were at the front desk asking for these charges to be taken off on the final cruise day.

 

We attended a "Cruise" information evening where a guest speaker during his speech about cruising on HAL, mentioned tipping and advised when on board the ship, to go to the Front Office and remove the Hotel Service charge.

So maybe the New Zealanders who were removing the HSC had heard his speech.

We never remove the HSC, and give extra to those who we believe deserve it.

[GUT2407]

We attended a "Cruise" information evening where a guest speaker during his speech about cruising on HAL, mentioned tipping and advised when on board the ship, to go to the Front Office and remove the Hotel Service charge.

So maybe the New Zealanders who were removing the HSC had heard his speech.

We never remove the HSC, and give extra to those who we believe deserve it.

 

 

Even a cruise expos you hear reps from the lines saying just that, Remove the tips and save more.

 

You see ads from TAs saying just that.

 

So I wonder why people would do it :eek:

 

I have never seen a cruiseline say anywhere in their material, "ohhh by the way we pay our staff peanuts" so why wouldn't people (especially those who have only done one or two cruises) think that the staff are being paid a proper wage.

[NaughtyNanna]

Just like how in Australia different categories of workers can be paid differently, minimum wage or no.

 

http://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay/minimum-wages

 

Yes of course there are different rules for such categories as juniors, trainees, people who have disabilities etc. But speaking generally about an able-bodied, adult worker, no-one can be paid less than the minimum wage, which is currently $17.29 per hour. If working casually, as a lot of hospitality workers do, there is a 25% loading on top of that.

 

This is an interesting article, although it is from 2013 and rates everywhere hopefully have increased.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2013/08/19/the-u-s-has-a-7-25-minimum-wage-australias-is-16-88/

 

If (at that time) the US minimum wage is $7.25 per hour and you say hospitality workers get paid less than that, well in my opinion that is just slave labour. :eek:

 

Regards

Jan

Edited September 9, 2015 by NaughtyNanna

[Gerd]

.

 

 

Hello all,

Dear "MrdeRastignac"

 

while reading all the comments on this threat, one think has to be clarified – HSC - TIP - Gratuity, that’s why I put my comment here.

 

 

In the so called "old Europe" –I‘m German- each employer pays his employees in a really clear manner.

--> That means, he pays a full salary as it must be following its local and country behavior and law, meanwhile following all existing agreements from the concerned union.

So in mostly all European countries, we understand, that the service personal is complete paid by his boss, and in a adequate manner that both can live with.:)

 

=> And this is the source of arising errors in this Thread discussion – because one do not pay at all a part of the salary, hence "TIP" !!

 

-> nevertheless, in several European region, it exist a automatic added "Trinkgeld / Pourboire / Gratuity" – what is indeed a real different story….

 

-> and in Italy (and also in some other region), exist another supplement – this is for the so called "Coperto" or "place setting"

But this is just your quirky quote-part because you will find dishes, silverware and bread on your table…

 

But again, all this mentioned is still not salary ;)

 

 

On the other side of the Atlantic, and I’m been there quite often, the employer do not pay the full salary – so each client have to fill-up the missing part – TIP => but "TIP" is indeed your part to the salary

 

And this is really uncommon and surprising for each first time visitor.

I do not know how and when this procedure was established – but those employers are been very 'clever' to implement this.

 

As a European we learn this -> and of course, we do obey to this system.

 

And as "NaughtyNanna" (I do like your nick-name) also mentioned, the law in some countries are formal, if a employer pays less then the national rule - they severe punish….

 

Question : If a 'wrong' mention results in less- or non-payment => what they are doing with the client money ??:confused:

 

 

And please do not forget, HAL did implement this automatic added charge only when it was transferred into the Carnival brand – before it was not applied. I do clearly remember this, because we started to cruise with HAL in 1997

 

 

As latest mentioned in the thread, why I should add to i.e. to the cruise-fare and HSC, another 10% voluntary Hotel Service Charge in order the crew is correctly and fully paid => is this really my Job and responsibility ???

Why a operator is not able or willing, to calculate his need for running his business in such a manner, that indeed any expenses are covered by i.e. the cruise-fare – WHY ??

 

 

But finally don’t misunderstand me - please do not forget, all people working in the Cruise Ship Industries, and all other service branches who follows the discussed service system, needs really to get those TIP’s.

Because without this money, employee’s cannot survive……

 

 

So please, please, do not cancel the automatic 'HSC / TIP' while onboard – because while doing this, YOU DO NOT punish the SHIP Operator, but those very well working and peaceful peoples, which serve you with a smile all around your day.

 

 

 

- -> Nevertheless, once my Dinner – or what else for service is finish – and if I was satisfied with this service, then we do give a "Trinkgeld" what is "Gratuity" -> that’s all.:o

This is our manner to tell him or here, "thanks" your service was appreciated, and you did a good "job" !!

 

 

=> And on the cruise vessel (a hotel room, a…), I surely do deal-out envelops with money in order they obtain my indeed appreciation and recognition …. !:)

 

 

 

Smooth cruising

 

G E R D

Edited September 9, 2015 by Gerd

[dakrewser]

If (at that time) the US minimum wage is $7.25 per hour and you say hospitality workers get paid less than that, well in my opinion that is just slave labour. :eek:

 

Regards

Jan

 

Well, no. No one is forced to work those jobs, yet there seems to be a long line of people waiting to get those jobs.

 

But arguing about wages isn't what this thread (or this board) is about.

[RuthC]

And please do not forget, HAL did implement this automatic added charge only when it was transferred into the Carnival brand – before it was not applied. I do clearly remember this, because we started to cruise with HAL in 1997

Carnival Corporation bought Holland America in December, 1989, with the final paperwork signed in January, 1990.

For the next several years HAL operated under a "Tipping not required" policy, where people were free to tip individuals, or not, at their choice.

It was in 2004 (I believe that was the year; I could be off by one in either direction) the Hotel Service Charge as we now know it (albeit in a lower amount) was instituted.

 

There is no correlation between CCL purchasing HAL and the HSC.

Edited September 9, 2015 by RuthC

[Gerd]

.

 

Dear RuthC

 

o.k. but how-ever, since this was not the main message...

 

Gerd

[kakalina]

I just want to address the OP complaint that none of the Lido servers rushed to help him. We had a friend who passed out at the same time the elevator doors opened to the Crow's Nest. He was alone in the elevator. An employee who was cleaning the floors came into the bar to tell us our friend was hurt.

We rushed out and he was lying face down not breathing. We told the employee to call 911. He said he was required to call his manager first and was not allowed to touch the downed person for liability reasons. We turned him over so he could breathe and told the employee to call 911 then his manager. He called the manager then the manager came up then they called 911 and the medics came up. This took an extra few minutes that could have been essential in saving a life. Thank goodness they weren't and our friend was fine.

However, policy and liability prevent them from actually touching a hurt passenger.

Edited September 9, 2015 by kakalina

[serendipity1499]

Carnival Corporation bought Holland America in December, 1989, with the final paperwork signed in January, 1990.

For the next several years HAL operated under a "Tipping not required" policy, where people were free to tip individuals, or not, at their choice.

It was in 2004 (I believe that was the year; I could be off by one in either direction) the Hotel Service Charge as we now know it (albeit in a lower amount) was instituted.

 

There is no correlation between CCL purchasing HAL and the HSC.

 

Ruth is correct, it had nothing to do with the CCL buy out..

 

We also began sailing HAL in 1998 & at that time it was a "Tipping Not required" policy.. The first time we encountered a Hotel Service Charge was on NCL in 2002 on a Trans-Atlantic & we were very surprised by it & quite naive about it.. Our Husbands were livid, so my Friend & I asked to meet with the Purser about charging us the $10.00 Service charge.. We finally decided to pay it but our DH's wrote scathing comments about it & also asked that the total be only given to 3 people..(the Room Steward, the Waiter & the Assist. Waiter) ...We asked for an adjustment on our final bill & received it after speaking to the Purser about it...In addition we also tipped each Steward who we thought deserved it a bit more... I have a "service personnel gratuity adjustment form" copy of what DH wrote on ours..

 

We next encountered it on HAL on the Westerdam in Nov. of 2004...On our final bill it is listed as Gratuities $10.00 per person per day.. It was not called the Hotel Service charge then & we paid it.. Yes, I have most of our final bills for every cruise we've taken ..

 

I just want to address the OP complaint that none of the Lido servers rushed to help him. We had a friend who passed out at the same time the elevator doors opened to the Crow's Nest. He was alone in the elevator. An employee who was cleaning the floors came into the bar to tell us our friend was hurt.

We rushed out and he was lying face down not breathing. We told the employee to call 911. He said he was required to call his manager first and was not allowed to touch the downed person for liability reasons. We turned him over so he could breathe and told the employee to call 911 then his manager. He called the manager then the manager came up then they called 911 and the medics came up. This took an extra few minutes that could have been essential in saving a life. Thank goodness they weren't and our friend was fine.

However, policy and liability prevent them from actually touching a hurt passenger.

 

Kakalina we have heard about this before.. Apparently Cruise Line Management forbids all employees to touch an injured Passenger.. But there should be something in place to nitify 911 immediately, not a Manager first.. We saw a lady miss a high stool in one of the bars...Whe & the stool fell on the floor.. Only other Passengers came to that ladies aid..

[Fouremco]

Kakalina we have heard about this before.. Apparently Cruise Line Management forbids all employees to touch an injured Passenger.. But there should be something in place to nitify 911 immediately, not a Manager first.. We saw a lady miss a high stool in one of the bars...Whe & the stool fell on the floor.. Only other Passengers came to that ladies aid..

Unfortunately, Good Samaritan laws are not universal, and in some jurisdictions, protection is only extended to physicians, emergency medical technicians and other first responders. Consequently, I can understand HAL's position on treating someone.

 

That being said, I couldn't agree more that a call to 911 followed by a call to a manager would be far more appropriate. In a true emergency, the difference of a minute or two can have a drastic impact on the outcome.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Fouremco

[elusive_23]

Yes of course there are different rules for such categories as juniors, trainees, people who have disabilities etc. But speaking generally about an able-bodied, adult worker, no-one can be paid less than the minimum wage, which is currently $17.29 per hour. If working casually, as a lot of hospitality workers do, there is a 25% loading on top of that.

 

This is an interesting article, although it is from 2013 and rates everywhere hopefully have increased.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2013/08/19/the-u-s-has-a-7-25-minimum-wage-australias-is-16-88/

 

If (at that time) the US minimum wage is $7.25 per hour and you say hospitality workers get paid less than that, well in my opinion that is just slave labour. :eek:

 

Regards

Jan

 

I don't want to divert the thread even further but with that being said I wanted to clear things up.

 

The U.S. has a $7.25 minimum wage for non-tipped positions. If you are in a tipped position (receive more than $30 in tips) the employer can pay you $2.13 an hour in certain states. However, pay must equal at least $7.25 after tips. This means as an employer that if my bartender does not make enough tips to average $7.25 an hour then I am obligated to make up the difference. Most places I know do not hold up this end of the bargain and it would be hard to prove they didn't without claiming your tips on your taxes (which many don't do).

 

Here is a handy chart to see what is required of employers to pay in the U.S.

 

http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm

 

As far as why anyone would take such a low paying job, well, my fiance once bartended at a place where he averaged more per hour in tips than I do at my mid-level salaried job that requires a degree! :eek:

[togacath]

Dear OP,

 

Am so sorry to hear of your injury on your trip. Please, if you cruise again, remember the Infirmary on board. I had another passenger (not my husband) step on my foot during a Dancing with the Stars class. I was in immediate pain and hobbled off the dance floor. Made it back to my cabin and iced it. When I still couldn't put weight on it a couple of hours later, my husband took me to the Infirmary. While I was lectured about not reporting the injury immediately, I did receive the best care, at no charge. They took x-rays to make sure nothing was broken and then offered me both crutches and a cane. For the rest of the trip, I hobbled around but received excellent care and attention from the crew. My room stewards brought ice multiple times a day and I had Front Office people calling me daily to make sure I was fine. Yes, an injury does put a damper on a vacation, but Holland America did its best by me and I can't praise them enough.

 

And, yes, it took months to heal. My colleagues laughed so hard when I returned to work with a cane! They can't wait to see what injury I return with after my next trip!

 

My best wishes for a complete recovery to you! I do hope you try Holland America again in the future and get to experience some of the wonderful service that keeps so many of us going back again and again.

[Lizzie68]

I just want to address the OP complaint that none of the Lido servers rushed to help him. We had a friend who passed out at the same time the elevator doors opened to the Crow's Nest. He was alone in the elevator. An employee who was cleaning the floors came into the bar to tell us our friend was hurt.

We rushed out and he was lying face down not breathing. We told the employee to call 911. He said he was required to call his manager first and was not allowed to touch the downed person for liability reasons. We turned him over so he could breathe and told the employee to call 911 then his manager. He called the manager then the manager came up then they called 911 and the medics came up. This took an extra few minutes that could have been essential in saving a life. Thank goodness they weren't and our friend was fine.

However, policy and liability prevent them from actually touching a hurt passenger.

 

I am surprised at this, as my one and only observation of a passenger falling very quickly brought 4 or 5 crew members out of the woodwork to assist. It was an elderly lady, who had a rather nasty fall on the Queen's Lounge floor. True, she was not knocked out, but I was impressed at how quickly the crew (and other pax) reacted. However, I am at all surprised there there is some kind of of policy in place as you noted. A sad sign of our times.

[OVgirl]

Dear OP,

 

Am so sorry to hear of your injury on your trip. Please, if you cruise again, remember the Infirmary on board. I had another passenger (not my husband) step on my foot during a Dancing with the Stars class. I was in immediate pain and hobbled off the dance floor. Made it back to my cabin and iced it. When I still couldn't put weight on it a couple of hours later, my husband took me to the Infirmary. While I was lectured about not reporting the injury immediately, I did receive the best care, at no charge. They took x-rays to make sure nothing was broken and then offered me both crutches and a cane. For the rest of the trip, I hobbled around but received excellent care and attention from the crew. My room stewards brought ice multiple times a day and I had Front Office people calling me daily to make sure I was fine. Yes, an injury does put a damper on a vacation, but Holland America did its best by me and I can't praise them enough.

 

And, yes, it took months to heal. My colleagues laughed so hard when I returned to work with a cane! They can't wait to see what injury I return with after my next trip!

 

My best wishes for a complete recovery to you! I do hope you try Holland America again in the future and get to experience some of the wonderful service that keeps so many of us going back again and again.

 

My father also fell while on Noordam by the Seaview Bar. Within a minute people were there with defibrillator and first aid. When he was down in the medical centre, someone from security also came down and filed out a report of the incident. Not sure if that is done all the time, but it is one way to have company wide follow up for injuries that could be avoided.