Princesss fined $40 million for pollution

[bluegiraffe]

I agree it is a tough call indeed.

 

But for me, until other cruise companies plead guilty to seven felony counts and agree to pay what is acknowledged as the largest fine of its kind for these activities, it is not up to me to find them guilty. I can only act on the knowledge and certain facts available.

 

Thus, I will likely not sail Princess again -- unless they can somehow demonstrate to me, via probably years of validated good behavior, that they have changed.

 

As an aside, having worked in corporate communications, I enjoy the irony implicit in Princess's FAQ statement posted by azbirdmom above (Post 184). Masterful work. :rolleyes:

 

Agree with all your points. Ironically, we're scheduled for our first Princess cruise this month. It will be our last Princess cruise until such time as they can convince us that they have changed.

 

The stupidity of polluting the very thing you depend on is stunning. :(

[khoffman]

I have two concerns with this incident.

 

First: It was wide spread, several ships were doing it. Therefore it was a well known practice with a large number of people involved. It had to be well known through the fleet/princess. This means Captains and several " higher ups " ignored the issue and walked away with no repercussions. Princess did not do a detailed internal investigation. They would have uncovered the problem after the charge, corrected it and fessed up.

 

Second: Princess made a big deal about how environmental they were in Alaska cruises. Although not mentioned what else are they doing. It is cultural thing. Their culture does not support an honest environmental process.

 

If I was to impact them I would limit their access to Alaskan waters, which is a big long term money maker.

 

Those of us that have stock (and a lot of cc users do) should ask the board about the incident. How can this or a similar isuues not occur in the future. Remember it effects our dividends and stock price.

[chengkp75]

Princess has changed drastically in the past few decades. We were told on one cruise that gray water was dumped in the ocean. I never thought that they were bypassing the system to extract the oily chemicals from it.

 

 

Just to clarify, I think you are mixing gray water with bilge water. Gray water (the waste water from sinks, showers, galleys, and laundries) is completely legal to discharge at sea without treatment, though most cruise ships treat their gray water along with the black water from the toilets at all times. There is no treatment for oil in gray or black water, other than the natural ability of bacteria to digest oil. In fact, most cargo ships discharge their gray water, legally, directly into harbors and ports.

 

Bilge water is oily water that collects in the engineering spaces. This water must be treated to bring the oil content down to the mandated 15ppm limit. One of the things Princess did was that when a gray water tank overflowed into the engine room bilges (and that water immediately became reclassified as bilge water), they pumped it back into the gray water tanks where it could be discharged either directly or through the waste water treatment plant which does not separate oil, and the oil content is not monitored.

[Redwing55]

The wind hasn't been mentioned today - it's all been about security. Turns out we are going ashore and we even get time tacked on the end. I'm sorry to have jumped the gun but it was the first thing I saw on Cruise Critic today and I couldn't help but think that, especially given, again, that wind was NOT mentioned today at all. You may have read more into what I wrote than what was there. If I had felt superior, you can bet I would have written more. Just posting breaking news, that's all. Read it with a matter of fact tone.

 

Many may doubt it, but the violations were taken care of many months ago. It is just now that the agreement with DOJ was reached.

Agreed that it is said seeing this type of practice going on. On a plus note, the impact to the environment is fairly small..if at all. The discharges are quite likely totally digested by marine life. I'm not supporting the actions at all, just trying to put some perspective on this. Consider what some freighters and tankers might be discharging out there.:mad:

[RDC1]

If memory serves me right, RCCL brand ships haven't received permits due to an incident(s) several years back of RCI dumping their pool water while in Glacier Bay.

 

Caribbean Princess has been dumping oil through an illegal magic pipe for 11 years.

 

Trust me, I'm sure RCCL has taken notice.

 

RCCL was not allowed to apply during the years that they were under the consent decree from that case. That expired in 2005. Neither Royal Caribbean, nor Celebrity chose to bid during the last contract cycle in 2009. The current contract ends Sept 2019.

[redtogo]

We were on a transatlantic cruise in April, 2016 on the Caribbean Princess. Prior to that we were on the Caribbean Princess on a Canada/New England Cruise in October, 2015.

 

I know that the condition of the CB had deteriorated from October to April. Toilets wouldn't flush, some passenger insisted that they would "make it" flush and flooded the hallways with water from the toilets complete with toilet tissue strewn up and down the hall from several cabins. Floors below had water (source unknown?) dripping from light fixtures. It was a horrible experience and unpleasant cruise.

 

I filled out the passenger survey form and explained everything in detail. Not that I expected to hear from Princess, but a little expression of concern would have been nice.

 

We have cruised exclusively with Princess for years now. Sometimes up to 5 in one year. ( I know for some passengers that is a negligible number of cruises in a year's time.) However, as of today, we have no future plans with of cruising on Princess. I had seen a deterioration in the cruise experience on Princess in the past 2 or 3 cruises. The Transatlantic in April really made me stop booking cruises with them.

[caribill]

We were on a transatlantic cruise in April, 2016 on the Caribbean Princess. Prior to that we were on the Caribbean Princess on a Canada/New England Cruise in October, 2015.

 

I know that the condition of the CB had deteriorated from October to April. Toilets wouldn't flush, some passenger insisted that they would "make it" flush and flooded the hallways with water from the toilets complete with toilet tissue strewn up and down the hall from several cabins. Floors below had water (source unknown?) dripping from light fixtures. It was a horrible experience and unpleasant cruise.

 

 

We were on the same TA.

 

We had no problems in our cabin or on our deck in the hallway or on any other deck we walked on.

 

There was a small ceiling leak outside one of the entrances to the Princess Theater for several days. The drip was captured in a barrel until the leak was repaired.

 

I fully believe your experience, but what you experienced was not shipwide.

[LawDog61]

It's already happened per the Princess FAQ's posted yesterday:

 

How could this have happened, and why would your employees do this?

We believe these actions were taken to save time and that those involved thought they were saving the company money, but since they violated our policies and the law it was not savings we incentivized, directed, nor approved.

The senior officers involved have been fired

.

 

Their entire statement is posted here: http://www.princess.com/news/notices_and_advisories/cbresponse/

Hummmm... I wonder how senior the officers who were fired were. Captains? Chief engineers?

[Redwing55]

I am absolutely disgusted by their procedures. They should be banned from European ports and those responsible (not the guys that executed it but the ones in the executive offices) should go to prison! SHAME ON PRINCESS!!

 

And how would that help anything? I'm in no way supporting their actions, but fix it, fine them, audit them, and move on. As I think was posted throughout this thread, these type of actions still go on... some actually legal, others not.

 

In Fact, odds on, that Princess will have much better Environmental related activities than most others as a result of this.

[El Crucero]

Solar power is great, and I highly recommend it. But to think it absolves you on any impact on the environment just in the use of your car alone, is not correct.

 

Human beings in the very fact of just living has a negative impact on the environment. So some would argue therefore, why do anything to clean up our act. Solar and wind power and electric vehicles are an initial first step in a progressive program to protect our environment. The second step would be to fire ALL Princess leadership management starting with the CEO.

[caribill]

Here are some of the specifics as reported by the Washington Post. What is deeply troubling is the reported extent to which Carnival Corporate leadership not only encouraged the policy, but engaged in a cover up.

 

At the heart of the criminal case lies one ship in particular, the 3,192-passenger Caribbean Princess, which prosecutors said used a “magic pipe” to bypass the ship’s usual equipment and illegally discharge thousands of gallons of oily waste into the ocean. The practice came to the attention of authorities after an engineer on the ship reported the problem to British investigators in summer 2013. The ship was sailing off the coast of England at the time, and the whistleblowing engineer quit his job when the vessel reached Southampton, England.

 

Officials from the Justice Department said the ship’s chief engineer and senior first engineer tried to cover up the practice, removing the magic pipe and ordering subordinates to lie to authorities. Upon the ship’s arrival in New York the following month, U.S. Coast Guard investigators conducted an examination of the Caribbean Princess, during which some crew members continued to mislead them about the illegal dumping practice.

 

[We’re trashing the oceans — and they’re returning the favor by making us sick]

 

Investigators eventually determined that the ship had been making illegal discharges since 2005, the year after the ship was put into service. They also discovered a handful of other illegal practices taking place on the Caribbean Princess and four other ships — the Star Princess, Grand Princess, Coral Princess and Golden Princess. The practices included allowing salt water in to prevent alarms from sounding when too much oil was being discharged, and discharging oily bilge water when storage tanks overflowed in the engine room, according to the Justice Department.

 

Carnival’s Princess Cruises will pay a $40 million fine for dumping oily waste into the ocean – the largest penalty of its kind in history. The company also pleaded guilty to seven felony charges.

 

A whistleblower discovered the elaborate workaround system three years ago and alerted investigators. Investigators charge the cruise line had been dumping thousands of gallons of contaminated water for at least eight years, reports CBS News’ travel editor Peter Greenberg.

 

“Our open seas are not dumping grounds for waste,” said Miami U.S. Attorney Wilfredo Ferrer.

 

According to the Justice Department, ship engineers aboard the Caribbean Princess repeatedly polluted the ocean and went to great lengths to cover up their criminal actions.

 

“There was a campaign of obstruction in an effort to hide the deliberate pollution of our seas with oily waste,” Ferrer said.

 

Cruise ships store so-called “bilge water” -- a mixture of water, oil and other chemicals below deck. They’re required to filter it and store it until they get to port, which can be expensive.

 

The DOJ said Princess Cruises used what’s called a “magic pipe” connected to a hose, to feed the dirty water into a tank that holds water from the ship’s sinks and showers. In some places, cruise lines can dump that water at sea.

 

A whistleblower turned over pictures from inside the ship. Investigators said the cruise line used illegal practices on five of their ships over the eight-year period.

 

 

The plea agreement also requires all Princess ships to participate in a court-supervised environmental compliance program. Ten million dollars of the settlement will go toward community service projects to benefit marine environments.

 

I do not see anywhere in what you posted where it says that corporate leadership engaged in a coverup.

[Redwing55]

Not necessarily. I drive an electric car and I produce my own electricity via solar panels on the roof of my house.

 

And what wastes were produced in the manufacturing of the panels? Also, please consider disposal of said panels when their usefulness becomes limited. Same goes for car battery production and disposal .

 

Good on you for stepping up though.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Redwing55

[caribill]

Not necessarily. I drive an electric car and I produce my own electricity via solar panels on the roof of my house.

 

Unless you only charge your car's batteries at home and never away from home, then you will likely be using electricity produced with fossil fuels.

[El Crucero]

On a plus note, the impact to the environment is fairly small..if at all. The discharges are quite likely totally digested by marine life.

 

Wrong! Discharging bilge water is incredibly harmful to the marine habitat and ecosystems.

 

I'm not supporting the actions at all, just trying to put some perspective on this. Consider what some freighters and tankers might be discharging out there.:mad:

 

Actually the US Navy is likely one of the biggest oceanic polluters of all, and it has been documented.

[eroller]

 

The pressure to KEEP COSTS IN LINE starts all the way at the top... above Princess Executives ... all the way to the parent company.

 

 

 

 

I agree 100%. Carnival Corporation puts a tremendous amount of pressure on all its brands to reduce fuel costs year over year. They do it by slowing down the ships, revising itineraries, and new ship innovations (hull design, engine & propulsion improvements, etc). Perhaps this "magic pipe" was also a method to save on fuel costs? In any case there is pressure to save costs across the board from the parent company and the brand, and unfortunately some employees feel the need to do unethical things to achieve this. My feeling is that the pressure should never be so great that it would push any employee to do such things. Maybe they felt their job was at stake if they didn't somehow save costs? For this reason I hold senior management at Princess and Carnival Corporation accountable.

[caribill]

A 2015 look as environmental records of various cruise lines:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/jan/08/cruise-line-industry-ranking-disney-princess-costa

[El Crucero]

Unless you only charge your car's batteries at home and never away from home, then you will likely be using electricity produced with fossil fuels.

 

I am able to charge exclusively at home. Try an electric car and solar roof panels. You can be a pioneer in achieving part of a solution.

 

But back on topic, Princess should loose their cruising permits to some environmentally sensitive ecosystems for a period of several years. The fine, although large, will not have any long term impact on them. Losing their cruising permit to certain sensitive areas will have a long term impact on them.

[bhopal21]

Princess should lose their cruising permits to some environmentally sensitive ecosystems for a period of several years. The fine, although large, will not have any long term impact on them. Losing their cruising permit to certain sensitive areas will have a long term impact on them.

 

I agree completely. Maybe losing some of their exclusive AK routes for a few years would make them more conscientious about the environment.

 

Mike:mad:

[SheriffJoe]

IMO its rouge officers onboard these ships that attempt to cut corners.

I agree with the post that says its not directed from the corporate office.

 

That's pretty naïve...."rouge employees" do not care about saving $15K to pump to a barge, they get paid the same wage regardless and wont endanger their jobs to save the company money....PLUS, its the company that arranges for pump out barges to come alongside to receive the pumpings...Do you REALLY think they just didn't show up because some schlep illegally pumped over the side :rolleyes:....

[Colo Cruiser]

That's pretty naïve...."rouge employees" do not care about saving $15K to pump to a barge, they get paid the same wage regardless and wont endanger their jobs to save the company money....PLUS, its the company that arranges for pump out barges to come alongside to receive the pumpings...Do you REALLY think they just didn't show up because some schlep illegally pumped over the side :rolleyes:....

 

 

Where did I say anything about saving money?

How do you know they did not show up? Were you there?

You should never ASSUME....thats even more naive.

[redtogo]

Just to clarify, I think you are mixing gray water with bilge water. Gray water (the waste water from sinks, showers, galleys, and laundries) is completely legal to discharge at sea without treatment, though most cruise ships treat their gray water along with the black water from the toilets at all times. There is no treatment for oil in gray or black water, other than the natural ability of bacteria to digest oil. In fact, most cargo ships discharge their gray water, legally, directly into harbors and ports.

 

Bilge water is oily water that collects in the engineering spaces. This water must be treated to bring the oil content down to the mandated 15ppm limit. One of the things Princess did was that when a gray water tank overflowed into the engine room bilges (and that water immediately became reclassified as bilge water), they pumped it back into the gray water tanks where it could be discharged either directly or through the waste water treatment plant which does not separate oil, and the oil content is not monitored.

 

Sorry, I thought the fine was imposed because of gray water mixed with petro chemicals. I am corrected.

 

However, the explanation you gave states the the gray water overflowed and would then be bilge water. This was then pumped back into the gray water tanks where it could be discharged - and the oil content is not monitored.

 

Bottom line, it was oil contaminated gray water put back into the gray holding tank - ??? yes???

Edited December 2, 2016 by redtogo

[redtogo]

We were on the same TA.

 

We had no problems in our cabin or on our deck in the hallway or on any other deck we walked on.

 

There was a small ceiling leak outside one of the entrances to the Princess Theater for several days. The drip was captured in a barrel until the leak was repaired.

 

I fully believe your experience, but what you experienced was not shipwide.

 

You were fortunate. We were just a short distance from the sewer flood. I don't believe that I said it was "shipwide". I saw it on two floors. Our floor and the one below it.

 

I also witnessed the leak outside of the Princess Theater which was being captured. I also observed the strong sewage smell that everyone leaving the theater with us commented on. It was breath taking and I am not referring to the show in the Princess Theater. Caribill, you are not the only person on the ship who is capable of making observations. I am quite capable with keen vision and sense of smell.

Edited December 2, 2016 by redtogo

[thinfool]

The second step would be to fire ALL Princess leadership management starting with the CEO.

 

This happened.

 

We are all late to the party. The announcement is new, but the remedies have been in place for some time.

[lovey1103]

We have been loyal Princess cruisers for over a decade cruising many times a year

This ongoing disregard for the environment, marine animals, creatures of the earth, sky and humanity is inexcusable.

We have a cruise bought and paid for in January with flights and hotels paid in advance.

After this it will be goodbye Princess. We will not be back:mad:

Edited December 2, 2016 by lovey1103

[thinfool]

We have been loyal Princess cruisers for over a decade cruising many times a year

This ongoing disregard for the environment, marine animals, creatures of the earth, sky and humanity is inexcusable.

We have a cruise bought and paid for in January with flights and hotels paid in advance.

After this it will be goodbye Princess. We will not be back:mad:

 

Really? Even though this has long since been corrected?