Who is HAL's new breed of customers?

[Cruise Junky]

That is the unknown for the HAL brand - these Caribbean cruise are obviously a are a cash cow for CLL line in general as their Annual Reports sets out.

 

But if they are already a cash cow under the current HAL brand, why does HAL need to to compete for even more Carribbean, at the possible expense of losing the more tradition "midwestern" mentality HAL demographic. (His description - not mine - Arnold Donald - CCL CEO)

 

Might be smarter for CLL to push more Carnival brand 7-day Caribbean cruises, than asking the HAL brand to all the sudden morph into Celebrity, NCL, or RCCL. Or MSC or whomever runs the 7 day Caribbean market.

 

Obviously I have never been inside the CLL board room where these issues are most likely well-considered. Is the current Oprah glitz intended to beef up only the North American cruises demographics if these runs are no longer competitive for the HAL brand - Alaska and Caribbean - or will the Oprah effect penetrate even into the European and Asian offerings too and they become shorter, spa meditation cruises too.

 

Because competition is getting more intense. RCL building even bigger giants, MSC moving in. HAL needs to grow their market share and keep what they have.

[OlsSalt]

Because competition is getting more intense. RCL building even bigger giants, MSC moving in. HAL needs to grow their market share and keep what they have.

 

Suggesting maybe the HAL brand is better off not competing, but sticking with what it does best and leave the -bigger-more intense - 7 day crowd to fall all over themselves until there is only one clunker behemoth left standing. Fo 24 hours until the newest Gimmickdam gets launched.

[Cruise Junky]

Suggesting maybe the HAL brand is better off not competing, but sticking with what it does best and leave the -bigger-more intense - 7 day crowd to fall all over themselves until there is only one clunker behemoth left standing. Fo 24 hours until the newest Gimmickdam gets launched.

But that's what slidergirl keeps asking...where do you put the fleet that will make the same as those 7 day Caribbean cruises? You can't put them on the longer cruises, the onboard spend will drop dramastcally, Alaska? cant, its winter. Australia? Maybe. My co-workers under the age of 60 who have sailed HAL, it's been in the Caribbean.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Cruise Junky

[OlsSalt]

But that's what slidergirl keeps asking...where do you put the fleet that will make the same as those 7 day Caribbean cruises? You can't put them on the longer cruises, the onboard spend will drop dramastcally, Alaska? cant, its winter. Australia? Maybe. My co-workers under the age of 60 who have sailed HAL, it's been in the Caribbean.

 

The real question is .... how, or if ....HAL will need to change to keep doing the Caribbean route in face of the "new, trendy and hyper" competition.

 

Where is it still warm during the North American winter? Any place in the Southern hemisphere - South America, South Africa, Indian Ocean, Australia, Indonesia. Easy access for the North American passenger to "get warm and see sunshine" is the defining detriment.

 

But again in this new world with the newly emerging global middle to upper class spending levels, is the North American market the only one HAL should be shooting for for those "extra ships" during their former Caribbean season. All of this is speculating that the HAL brand is losing out on the winter time Caribbean market - but there was nothing to indicate that in the CCL Annual Report.

[navybankerteacher]

But that's what slidergirl keeps asking...where do you put the fleet that will make the same as those 7 day Caribbean cruises? You can't put them on the longer cruises, the onboard spend will drop dramastcally, Alaska? cant, its winter. Australia? Maybe. My co-workers under the age of 60 who have sailed HAL, it's been in the Caribbean.

 

HAL might consider working on their longer-cruise approach - but still Caribbean (it is hard to figure an alternative which would keep all their ships occupied in winter months). Perhaps they could do some more of the 10 day- plus itineraries from New York and Norfolk before they abdicated that market to NCL and Royal Caribbean. Those were great, very popular itineraries during the first ten years of this century.

[Florida_gal_50]

HAL might consider working on their longer-cruise approach - but still Caribbean (it is hard to figure an alternative which would keep all their ships occupied in winter months). Perhaps they could do some more of the 10 day- plus itineraries from New York and Norfolk before they abdicated that market to NCL and Royal Caribbean. Those were great, very popular itineraries during the first ten years of this century.

I wonder why hal stopped sailing those routes if they were as popular as you say. Surely they wouldn't have left if they were profitable.

[3rdGenCunarder]

HAL might consider working on their longer-cruise approach - but still Caribbean (it is hard to figure an alternative which would keep all their ships occupied in winter months). Perhaps they could do some more of the 10 day- plus itineraries from New York and Norfolk before they abdicated that market to NCL and Royal Caribbean. Those were great, very popular itineraries during the first ten years of this century.

 

I would love to see HAL sail out of NY again. One of the problems with New York departures is the time at sea at either end, which gets us back to the issue of onboard entertainment. HAL would need to provide more than spa infomercials.

 

Back in the day, QE2 could go from NY to Fort Lauderdale with one sea day between departure and arrival. Of course, if she were still sailing, she wouldn't be doing that because of fuel costs. Now, when QM2 sails from NY to the Caribbean, it's 3 days at sea before the first port. And 3 days at sea after the last port. Of course, they do a lot of TAs, so they know how to give people plenty to do on sea days.

 

When we were looking for a cruise for next winter, it seemed like HAL was doing more 7 day cruises than I'd seen in previous yeas. Lots of 7-day cruises and 14-day cruises that were really two 7-day cruises. I don't want a short cruise, and I worry about 7-day cruises getting bumped or over-run by groups. (I wonder if they're doing more 7s to attract groups and charters?) I'm looking for 10 days at a minimum, and I did find one that fit our time frame. But I would book a NY to Caribbean run.

[CruiserBruce]

I wonder why hal stopped sailing those routes if they were as popular as you say. Surely they wouldn't have left if they were profitable.

 

"Popular" does not equal "profitable". Common misconception.

[3rdGenCunarder]

I wonder why hal stopped sailing those routes if they were as popular as you say. Surely they wouldn't have left if they were profitable.

 

It's a lot of fuel. And according to the captain of the Explorer of the Seas, which used to do the NY-Caribbean run, the frequent changes from cold water to warm and back again "age" the ship faster than if it's in a fairly constant environment.

[slidergirl]

The real question is .... how, or if ....HAL will need to change to keep doing the Caribbean route in face of the "new, trendy and hyper" competition.

 

Where is it still warm during the North American winter? Any place in the Southern hemisphere - South America, South Africa, Indian Ocean, Australia, Indonesia. Easy access for the North American passenger to "get warm and see sunshine" is the defining detriment.

 

But again in this new world with the newly emerging global middle to upper class spending levels, is the North American market the only one HAL should be shooting for for those "extra ships" during their former Caribbean season. All of this is speculating that the HAL brand is losing out on the winter time Caribbean market - but there was nothing to indicate that in the CCL Annual Report.

 

With people on CC asking "what is the cheapest flight to xx", and people going hysteric with a $900 fare to Europe for a $800 cruise, I don't think many would want to put out a high air fare to get to South America, or Asia for a cruise. Those markets already exist and I don't see too many cruise lines building new ships to move to those markets. Maybe Asia, with the exploding Chinese wealthy - HAL could re-do the ships for the Asian tastes and abandon the US market except for those longer cruises. Don't see South America and Africa as exploding destinations - I think it seems still too out of the comfort zone for people from the US. If HAL had so many people clamoring for those longer exotic trips already, wouldn't they have moved more or larger ships already to accommodate?

 

As a reference to upgrading HAL in to floating entertainment palaces, again, no one is suggesting this. Upgrade the music offerings as a small example. You may still have Jazz playing somewhere, but change it from Ella Fitzgerald and Peggy Lee to maybe Diana Krall, Acoustic Alchemy, and a little Mindi Abair. It's not ear-splitting stuff, and pretty damn good. I need to thank my Development of Jazz professor in college (Paul Tanner) for giving me a good appreciation of all types of Jazz - 2 semesters of great classes and great music. For the BB King theatre, there is much more to Blues than just loud - there is some really good blues in many forms, from good old Billy Ray Vaughn (RIP), and lately Eric Clapton (his Old Sock compilation is classic blues), and for fun, Saffire (sassy women!!) I will say, that, if it were still possible for the BB King Theatre to resurrect BB King to perform and have Eric Clapton as a guest, I'd be there in a flash (Riding with The King - one of the best blues albums around). Lincoln Stage still does classical, but a variety, from straight-up to covers of modern music. Classical does not mean always doing those good old Vivaldi and Beethoven standards. I've heard some quartets thrown down some mean rock music. Heck, even throw in a little Andre Reiu and you'd have the audience clapping and swaying around.

 

Not to read into it, but why the reference to Days Inn and slamming down waffles?

[OlsSalt]

.......

 

Not to read into it, but why the reference to Days Inn and slamming down waffles?

 

Doing something familiar, doing something well, finding the right niche for steady customers and doing it over and over and over again.

[cruisemom42]

Suggesting maybe the HAL brand is better off not competing, but sticking with what it does best and leave the -bigger-more intense - 7 day crowd to fall all over themselves until there is only one clunker behemoth left standing. Fo 24 hours until the newest Gimmickdam gets launched.

 

Better off for who? For the line itself or for the limited number of cruisers like yourself who don't want HAL to change one thing ever?

 

Hasn't HAL gone down that road before and almost failed as a brand until it was rescued by Carnival?

 

Loyal HAL cruisers might consider that if HAL doesn't make some changes, it could cease to exist altogether.

 

Finally, can we stop with this false dichotomy that HAL has to be EITHER a classic old-fashioned line of small but moldering ships OR a line of huge behemoth ships with classless customers who like belly flop contests? There are plenty of spaces in between these two visions.

[MMDown Under]

The trouble with the cruise industry is that they build mega cruise ships then cruise en masse to places, like the Caribbean, South Pacific, and Alaska then spoil the very places passengers cruised to see.

 

When I cruised Alaska on the Alaskan Marine Highway, each port, where I stayed for 3 nights, was a different much nicer place once the cruise ships left each day.

 

South Pacific islands are an unspoilt paradise, many of which lack infrastructure to handle large/mega cruise ships.

 

Royal Caribbean is threatening to pull out of Sydney, because it has reached capacity for mega ships, at peak times. It is bullying NZ to provide wharf access at Auckland for its mega ships next season, because Ovation of the Seas passengers had to tender to Auckland last season. Poor NZ is still trying to fix infrastructure damaged in the last earthquakes.

 

I have wanted to cruise HAL for a long time, as I like the size of its small/medium ships. It should concentrate on what it does well, then it will never run out of customers. If the passenger spend is not high enough, charge higher fares for unique itineraries to exotic places or cruises with quality live entertainment, such as blues, country and western, or musicals, classical, etc. combined with say Bridge for enthusiasts. I see HAL having a promising future, as passengers look for smaller ships which don't have to tender and can berth closer to town, in lieu of container terminals.

[doone]

The Caribbean is still one of my favorite destinations for a cruise for several reasons.

 

First, I love the beach and coming from the Boston area, it's always nice to have a winter get away and the Caribbean is paradise, for me.

 

Second, a Caribbean cruise for me is more affordable, I have done Alaska and the Baltics and loved those sailings, but again, it took me a long time to save to be able to sail to those destinations, the Caribbean I can sail more often.

 

I would love to see HAL offer more 10-day itineraries to the Caribbean sailing out of Florida, NY sailings do not interest me, especially sailing in the winter time.

 

For me I would love to see HAL step up the sea day activities, giving us, who love to sail HAL, more options.

[dockman]

I understand that but I find it troublesome that HAL is building larger ships but can't find space for a library or a promenade wide enough for loungers. If this is what the "new breed" wants then I am sad.

Me too....no deck chairs no library and i don,t go

[3rdGenCunarder]

Better off for who? For the line itself or for the limited number of cruisers like yourself who don't want HAL to change one thing ever?

 

Hasn't HAL gone down that road before and almost failed as a brand until it was rescued by Carnival?

 

Loyal HAL cruisers might consider that if HAL doesn't make some changes, it could cease to exist altogether.

 

Finally, can we stop with this false dichotomy that HAL has to be EITHER a classic old-fashioned line of small but moldering ships OR a line of huge behemoth ships with classless customers who like belly flop contests? There are plenty of spaces in between these two visions.

 

(bold is mine) Yes, there are. Carnival corp is smart. They've got an array of options. They don't need to build mega-ships for HAL. If they want to chase the 6000-passenger trend, Carnival or maybe Princess could do that. Their passengers are already used to large ships, so the brand wouldn't be changed in an odd way--good for both loyal passengers and good for marketing.

 

HAL's niche is mid-sized ships. When you click on the "onboard" tab, one of the choices you get is "our mid-sized ships." That's their niche. What they need to do to stay in this size range is offer more to do. Not snazzy bells and whistles or waterslides. They don't have the extra room for big stuff, but they can offer more in the space they've got.

 

Up the daytime content--Get a big screen for the main showroom and show a movie in the afternoon. The movie theater is nice, but it doesn't hold enough people. And there's something about seeing a movie on a big screen that makes it better. It wouldn't have to be first-run, and it shouldn't be one year old, as that would look stale. Get a mix of classics and some movies that were very popular maybe 10 years ago. People might look at the title and think, "oh, I loved that one" and want to see it again. Pick a theme, or a director, or a star and show a handful of related movies. When we did the 21-day Australia cruise on QM2, it was part of the world cruise. They had "director of the month" and showed a different movie each week. It was Billy Wilder when we were on, and how much fun to see "Some Like it Hot" on a big screen instead of a little TV screen. Ditto for The Apartment and (sigh) Sabrina.

 

Break the tie to Microsoft so the workshops can teach a better variety of programs--for example Photoshop, which they can't do now because it isn't a Microsoft product. They teach the Microsoft photo software, which is crappy. But it's MICROSOFT and they're tied to it. And maybe if they cut the tie, the computer teacher could also help with internet questions. Maybe teach other tech stuff, like digital camera workshops. Or how to take better pictures with your cellphone.

 

And if HAL adds more evening entertainment, it should be an addition, not a replacement for something else.

[slidergirl]

Better off for who? For the line itself or for the limited number of cruisers like yourself who don't want HAL to change one thing ever?

 

Hasn't HAL gone down that road before and almost failed as a brand until it was rescued by Carnival?

 

Loyal HAL cruisers might consider that if HAL doesn't make some changes, it could cease to exist altogether.

 

Finally, can we stop with this false dichotomy that HAL has to be EITHER a classic old-fashioned line of small but moldering ships OR a line of huge behemoth ships with classless customers who like belly flop contests? There are plenty of spaces in between these two visions.

 

Amen my CC sister!!! Now, go back to enjoying that Med cruise on that wonderful SMALL ship!!!

[slidergirl]

HAL might consider working on their longer-cruise approach - but still Caribbean (it is hard to figure an alternative which would keep all their ships occupied in winter months). Perhaps they could do some more of the 10 day- plus itineraries from New York and Norfolk before they abdicated that market to NCL and Royal Caribbean. Those were great, very popular itineraries during the first ten years of this century.

 

Thank you for at least coming up with a suggestion or two that would keep HAL in the US and not have to sail halfway up or around the world. I was thinking - maybe do cruises from the Caribbean that do a partial Panama Canal visit? Sail out of San Juan, or make it longer from Miami/FLL? It is even possible to do the Canal from the Atlantic side year 'round. That would add a hint of adventure that the usual E/W Caribbean cruises don't have.

[OlsSalt]

Better off for who? For the line itself or for the limited number of cruisers like yourself who don't want HAL to change one thing ever?

 

Hasn't HAL gone down that road before and almost failed as a brand until it was rescued by Carnival?

 

Loyal HAL cruisers might consider that if HAL doesn't make some changes, it could cease to exist altogether.

 

Finally, can we stop with this false dichotomy that HAL has to be EITHER a classic old-fashioned line of small but moldering ships OR a line of huge behemoth ships with classless customers who like belly flop contests? There are plenty of spaces in between these two visions.

 

I have no problem with change. I don't know the history about CLL rescuing HAL, nor did I sense any alarm in the 2016 CCL Annual report that HAL was not carrying its own weight. I think you are creating the extremes of the false dichotomy. I am merely looking at whether HAL's emphasis should be competing with other cruise lines even within the CCL family - or should HAL go with its strengths (longer, enrichment for value cruises with unique itineraries for older passengers). And leave the high-entertainment short cruise market to other cruise lines.

 

Again, it always works best if one sticks to what they want to say and not put words into other peoples mouths.

[OlsSalt]

The trouble with the cruise industry is that they build mega cruise ships then cruise en masse to places, like the Caribbean, South Pacific, and Alaska then spoil the very places passengers cruised to see.

 

When I cruised Alaska on the Alaskan Marine Highway, each port, where I stayed for 3 nights, was a different much nicer place once the cruise ships left each day.

 

South Pacific islands are an unspoilt paradise, many of which lack infrastructure to handle large/mega cruise ships.

 

Royal Caribbean is threatening to pull out of Sydney, because it has reached capacity for mega ships, at peak times. It is bullying NZ to provide wharf access at Auckland for its mega ships next season, because Ovation of the Seas passengers had to tender to Auckland last season. Poor NZ is still trying to fix infrastructure damaged in the last earthquakes.

 

I have wanted to cruise HAL for a long time, as I like the size of its small/medium ships. It should concentrate on what it does well, then it will never run out of customers. If the passenger spend is not high enough, charge higher fares for unique itineraries to exotic places or cruises with quality live entertainment, such as blues, country and western, or musicals, classical, etc. combined with say Bridge for enthusiasts. I see HAL having a promising future, as passengers look for smaller ships which don't have to tender and can berth closer to town, in lieu of container terminals.

 

In total agreement. Thanks for saying this far better than my own disjointed attempts.

[slidergirl]

I have no problem with change. I don't know the history about CLL rescuing HAL, nor did I sense any alarm in the 2016 CCL Annual report that HAL was not carrying its own weight. I think you are creating the extremes of the false dichotomy. I am merely looking at whether HAL's emphasis should be competing with other cruise lines even within the CCL family - or should HAL go with its strengths (longer, enrichment for value cruises with unique itineraries for older passengers). And leave the high-entertainment short cruise market to other cruise lines.

 

Again, it always works best if one sticks to what they want to say and not put words into other peoples mouths.

 

Again, we are NOT talking about turning HAL into a high-entertainment line. We are just talking about upgrading the offerings to be more modern for the newest group of cruisers. You are talking about today's "older" passenger. What about the next "older" passenger? Are you suggesting that HAL position themselves as the "retro" line, preferring to live in the past and do nothing to update to entice the newest "older" passengers? Showing movies that are 10 years old??? Really? Why not put the screen out by the Lido pool in the Caribbean and do the movies at night at a nighttime-underused space? Oops, that is too much like what Princess, RCCL, NCL do now, can't do that. Are you suggesting HAL abandon the mass-market arena and go to Linblad-like marketing? Will there enough 60-90 year olds with the personal finances to sustain all those HAL ships on long length enrichment cruises? Could they exist by serving such a small percentage of the population?

As you say, HAL's finances seem to be OK right now. Remember - a bit of that comes from the short Caribbean cruises. Or, do those not contribute to the bottom line?

[OlsSalt]

Again, we are NOT talking about turning HAL into a high-entertainment line. We are just talking about upgrading the offerings to be more modern for the newest group of cruisers. You are talking about today's "older" passenger. What about the next "older" passenger? Are you suggesting that HAL position themselves as the "retro" line, preferring to live in the past and do nothing to update to entice the newest "older" passengers? Showing movies that are 10 years old??? Really? Why not put the screen out by the Lido pool in the Caribbean and do the movies at night at a nighttime-underused space? Oops, that is too much like what Princess, RCCL, NCL do now, can't do that. Are you suggesting HAL abandon the mass-market arena and go to Linblad-like marketing? Will there enough 60-90 year olds with the personal finances to sustain all those HAL ships on long length enrichment cruises? Could they exist by serving such a small percentage of the population?

As you say, HAL's finances seem to be OK right now. Remember - a bit of that comes from the short Caribbean cruises. Or, do those not contribute to the bottom line?

 

Asking again, read what I write, not what you read into what I write. Stick to your own thoughts, please. Makes for an easier conversation flow. Thank you.

[slidergirl]

Asking again, read what I write, not what you read into what I write. Stick to your own thoughts, please. Makes for an easier conversation flow. Thank you.

 

Wow. just wow.

 

Was it not written on this thread:

"should HAL go with its strengths (longer, enrichment for value cruises with unique itineraries for older passengers). And leave the high-entertainment short cruise market to other cruise lines."

 

 

"Up the daytime content--Get a big screen for the main showroom and show a movie in the afternoon. The movie theater is nice, but it doesn't hold enough people. And there's something about seeing a movie on a big screen that makes it better. It wouldn't have to be first-run, and it shouldn't be one year old, as that would look stale. Get a mix of classics and some movies that were very popular maybe 10 years ago."

 

 

I'm not sure what else would have been meant.

Cruisemom - I hope you are enjoyed your cruise on the Aegean Odyssey the last 2 weeks. Safe travels home!

[OlsSalt]

Wow. just wow.

 

Was it not written on this thread:

"should HAL go with its strengths (longer, enrichment for value cruises with unique itineraries for older passengers). And leave the high-entertainment short cruise market to other cruise lines."

 

 

"Up the daytime content--Get a big screen for the main showroom and show a movie in the afternoon. The movie theater is nice, but it doesn't hold enough people. And there's something about seeing a movie on a big screen that makes it better. It wouldn't have to be first-run, and it shouldn't be one year old, as that would look stale. Get a mix of classics and some movies that were very popular maybe 10 years ago."

 

 

I'm not sure what else would have been meant.

Cruisemom - I hope you are enjoyed your cruise on the Aegean Odyssey the last 2 weeks. Safe travels home!

 

What you have to say for yourself is interesting slider girl, and you bring in a unique perspective. Just stick to that and not read into and make statements where you read into what others have said. That is where you get into trouble, as noted in the past. Thank you.

[Tampa Girl]

Thank you for at least coming up with a suggestion or two that would keep HAL in the US and not have to sail halfway up or around the world. I was thinking - maybe do cruises from the Caribbean that do a partial Panama Canal visit? Sail out of San Juan, or make it longer from Miami/FLL? It is even possible to do the Canal from the Atlantic side year 'round. That would add a hint of adventure that the usual E/W Caribbean cruises don't have.

 

I don't understand why you are trying to come up with cruises that would keep HAL in the U.S. The draw of HAL is that it does cruise to every part of the world and does it in medium size ships. When HAL leaves the Caribbean in the spring, it goes to the South Pacific, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. Why are you trying to come up with other scenarios? I think that the only other mass market line that covers as much territory is Cunard, and they are more expensive.