Chair Hogs and a "10" For the Crew - Did I Hit A Nerve?

[markeb]

Not fishing at all, I have made it very clear I always remove these fake auto changes and then tip the workers directly that I believe should be tipped. It is done within the rules and my choice. But in this case I'm encouraging removing tips as a way to make a point to management, that if they do not follow their own rules their actions have a direct impact on the bottom line.

 

You can post all day here about how bad it is, and management will not care but take away dollars and that will get results. It is 100% within the rules and allowed from the Corporate policy: "At your discretion, the gratuity payments may be adjusted onboard at Guest Relations" Any guest if free to adjust gratuity payments, at their discretion.

 

I don't know why, but every now and then I feel obligated to wade into one of these "tip traps". Neither you nor I have any idea whether removing gratuities impacts the cruise line's bottom line. We also don't really know whether tipped employees are required to pool cash tips, in which case giving tips to the workers you believe should be tipped is meaningless; they're likely pooled (as a condition of employment). The cruise line is not obligated to follow the US Fair Labor Standards Act, so they may, or may not. The FLSA allows a sub-minimum wage for tipped employees, but the employer is obligated to ensure the tipped employee receives minimum wage through a combination of wages and tips. So, yes, if your tipped worker doesn't receive his or her guaranteed minimum because you removed tips, IF the same contract exists on the ship, Celebrity would lose money to make up the difference. If it doesn't, only the tipped employee loses and Celebrity sees no difference. And, if everyone else's tips puts the employee over their guarantee, then only they lose, not the cruise line.

 

In most cases, your method will have no impact on the cruise line. You may certainly remove them, but you will not have the effect you espouse in this thread. If you want to have that effect, don't cruise that line. (Did I mention that the ships routinely sale at 99% or greater occupancy, so you not cruising will also have no impact on their bottom line?)

[MF40]

I was heading to the gym our first sea day morning (I just woke early!!) and witnessed a 'chair hog mom' reserving 4 loungers by the pool, clips aplenty!! On the way back I saw a 'chair hog dad' lying on a lounger, wrapped up in towels (the sun was barely in the sky!!) with each of his sandals on two adjacent loungers. Stayed cloudy most of the day.... hey ho

[Zoedokey]

Not fishing at all, I have made it very clear I always remove these fake auto changes and then tip the workers directly that I believe should be tipped. It is done within the rules and my choice. But in this case I'm encouraging removing tips as a way to make a point to management, that if they do not follow their own rules their actions have a direct impact on the bottom line.

 

You can post all day here about how bad it is, and management will not care but take away dollars and that will get results. It is 100% within the rules and allowed from the Corporate policy: "At your discretion, the gratuity payments may be adjusted onboard at Guest Relations" Any guest if free to adjust gratuity payments, at their discretion.

 

 

Do you go to the laundry and tip the people who wash your towels? Or into the kitchen to tip folks making your salad?

[markeb]

Do you go to the laundry and tip the people who wash your towels? Or into the kitchen to tip folks making your salad?

 

Again, the cruise line has been intentionally vague in the use of "housekeeping" and "culinary" staff, but those "back of the house" personnel would not receive tips in the US system that seems to be the origin of the shipboard system. Ashore, management is actually prohibited by law from pooling tips to share with back of the house workers. I assume the laundry worker and kitchen staff do not receive any of the automatic gratuity.

 

BTW, we leave ours on or they're prepaid. Not one of the posters who advocates their removal.

[Expat Cruise]

Do you go to the laundry and tip the people who wash your towels? Or into the kitchen to tip folks making your salad?

 

Again these workers do not belong in a tip pool.... The cruise line needs to pay them. I flew with United Airlines, a few months ago, I did not tip the worker who loaded the meals on the plane, I did not tip the people loading my baggage within the plane and no tips were asked for by anyone. Why because no one needs to pay more for basic included services.

[Zoedokey]

Again these workers do not belong in a tip pool.... The cruise line needs to pay them. I flew with United Airlines, a few months ago, I did not tip the worker who loaded the meals on the plane, I did not tip the people loading my baggage within the plane and no tips were asked for by anyone. Why because no one needs to pay more for basic included services.

 

 

 

Tipping airline workers is not customary, their pay is not comprised of tips, so that’s a ridiculous comparison, as I’m sure you know. Your auto tips on cruises do go to these back of the house folks.

 

Someone here noted that removing auto tips and giving them directly to a few folks actually does the same thing as auto tips as the worker who receives them has to put them into the pool anyway. Is this true?

 

 

 

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[markeb]

Tipping airline workers is not customary, their pay is not comprised of tips, so that’s a ridiculous comparison, as I’m sure you know. Your auto tips on cruises do go to these back of the house folks.

 

Someone here noted that removing auto tips and giving them directly to a few folks actually does the same thing as auto tips as the worker who receives them has to put them into the pool anyway. Is this true?

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

 

We don't actually know either of those with certainty. Back of house employees normally do not receive tips. Whether they do on Celebrity is unknown and hidden in the "culinary staff" language. But they would not in the United States; the employer would have to pay them at least minimum wage, not a tipped employee wage, and cannot compel the pool to share with them. So tipping back of the house employees is just as odd as tipping airline employees.

 

I have seen numerous threads that staff either do or don't pool tips. Employers can require pooling as a condition of employment within the United States. That doesn't apply on a cruise ship, but I have no reason to believe it's not the case. And the eye rolling "yeah right" crowd has never spent a day in a peer pressure ruled environment. I spent my fair share of days in the front leaning rest early in my Army career because someone else f'ed up. His peers took care of him later...

 

I am not defending removing tips and don't, but the general lack of understanding of what's actually required and allowed under US law and custom drives me almost as crazy as those who just say "the cruise line should pay them a full wage" and not count on my tips. The cruise employees benefit from tips more than increased salaries as those tips are frequently not taxed (unlike the US).

[AcadiaL]

Four days before the end of the cruise and the crew is already soliciting a score of 10 on our post-cruise survey. Guest services has even placed a call to our room asking how we are enjoying the cruise.

 

 

 

I'm telling everyone that until Celebrity starts enforcing no reserving of loungers, buffet tables, theater seats, and promenade deck lounger, nobody gets a 10. I also add that until they can figure out how to organize a line instead of allowing mobs to push and shove their way onto shuttle buses, nobody gets a 10. I sometime add that each time somebody solicits a 10, I deduct one point. The look on their faces is priceless.

 

 

 

If 10s are so important, they can earn them.

 

 

 

(Our MDR waiter is getting a 10 and a little extra)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Expat Cruise]

Tipping airline workers is not customary, their pay is not comprised of tips, so that’s a ridiculous comparison, as I’m sure you know. Your auto tips on cruises do go to these back of the house folks.

 

Someone here noted that removing auto tips and giving them directly to a few folks actually does the same thing as auto tips as the worker who receives them has to put them into the pool anyway. Is this true?

Sent from my iPad using Forums

 

Not ridiculous in any way shape or form. It is not the responsibility of guest cruising to compensate behind the scene personal. The cruise line is in the same business as Airlines, so the comparison is absolutely correct.

 

The cruise line has no idea how much we tip in cash to the workers, I tell them I will not disclose and they do not need to disclose the amount.

 

 

 

We don't actually know either of those with certainty. Back of house employees normally do not receive tips. Whether they do on Celebrity is unknown and hidden in the "culinary staff" language. But they would not in the United States; the employer would have to pay them at least minimum wage, not a tipped employee wage, and cannot compel the pool to share with them. So tipping back of the house employees is just as odd as tipping airline employees.

 

I have seen numerous threads that staff either do or don't pool tips. Employers can require pooling as a condition of employment within the United States. That doesn't apply on a cruise ship, but I have no reason to believe it's not the case. And the eye rolling "yeah right" crowd has never spent a day in a peer pressure ruled environment. I spent my fair share of days in the front leaning rest early in my Army career because someone else f'ed up. His peers took care of him later...

 

I am not defending removing tips and don't, but the general lack of understanding of what's actually required and allowed under US law and custom drives me almost as crazy as those who just say "the cruise line should pay them a full wage" and not count on my tips. The cruise employees benefit from tips more than increased salaries as those tips are frequently not taxed (unlike the US).

 

I agree with much of what you say and it is sound and correct. But we will need to agree to disagree about removing of the auto service fees that they call Gratuities , as I have point out many times Gratuities are voluntary and over and above any require payment. Therefore the paying or removal is for each guest to decided. It is each guest money and they have the right to spend or not spend as they see fit.

[DYKWIA]

 

I am not defending removing tips and don't, but the general lack of understanding of what's actually required and allowed under US law and custom drives me almost as crazy as those who just say "the cruise line should pay them a full wage" and not count on my tips. The cruise employees benefit from tips more than increased salaries as those tips are frequently not taxed (unlike the US).

 

With the complex arrangements concerning where ships are registered, where they are based, where they sail, where the cruiselines head quarters are and so on I'd be surprised if most people new for sure what laws really apply. The cruiselines can exploit that .

 

My wife and I always pay our gratuities up front and unless we get truly great service or extras like room service that's it. We don't usually tip any more. We don't worry about how the gratitudes are split or whether the pot washer gets their cut. I assume the arrangements are sufficient to recruit staff. This is the cruise lines system they can manage it - for better or worse. When we travel we try to tip what is expected in that country not what is customary in ours (the U.K.)

 

With many years of travel to pretty much all over the world we have found, in our experience, there is little correlation between tipping and great service. Good service seems more a cultural matter than a monetary one. Some countries you tip and get good service, some remains bad even when tipping. Some countries you don't tip and you get great service and some you don't tip and you get bad service. Great service is often confused in our opinion with someone just doing there job reasonably well vs someone doing their job badly. A Maitre D genuflecting throughout a meal isnt my definition of great service.

[Toofarfromthesea]

Yes that could work but others things also would work. Cruise lines look at the money. As long as something does not cost them money they will find no reason to fix it.

 

So use the daily service fee program to correct it. They add $14.50 to $18.00 per day for each guest but as they clear say:

"may be adjusted at your discretion" and "This gratuity is shared by .... staff members who help enhance your vacation experience. At your discretion, the gratuity payments may be adjusted onboard at Guest Relations..."

 

With a trip to guest services and a reduction of the service fee, with the reason clearly reason stated, you will not enforce the chair policy that was agreed too. Along with a reduced rating and Corporate would change the pool chair policy within a few weeks. If a good percent of passengers would do this.

 

"For your convenience, we automatically add gratuities for your restaurant and stateroom services to your onboard SeaPass® account on a daily basis in the following amounts, which may be adjusted at your discretion:

 

$14.50 per person, per day in standard accommodations

$15.00 per person, per day in Concierge Class and AquaClass® staterooms

$18.00 per person, per day in suites

This gratuity is shared by your stateroom attendant, dining services staff, and housekeeping staff members who help enhance your vacation experience. At your discretion, the gratuity payments may be adjusted onboard at Guest Relations, in which case they will not automatically be added to your onboard SeaPass® account. "

 

If people are not comfortable reducing this fee. Pay your servers/cabin attendant directly the amount that you reduce the service fee by. It will get the attention of the Corporate office, yes it is a boycott in a way but something that will work. Posting here how bad it is really does nothing. Action is needed that the cruise line can see.

 

Admin: This is not off topic or thread hijacking, it is a very direct way to address a issue that many here have a real problem with. That issue is deck chairs being unavailable and unused for long periods of time.

 

Why would you penalize staff members for things that are obviously out of their control? Sounds more like a pretext to me. Particularly when half your posts are about removing tips and the rationalizations for doing it.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Toofarfromthesea

[Expat Cruise]

Why would you penalize staff members for things that are obviously out of their control? Sounds more like a pretext to me. Particularly when half your posts are about removing tips and the rationalizations for doing it.

 

Because you fight your battles were you can. Daily service fees are stealing from the gust and I will never agree with them. It is call having principles.

[Toofarfromthesea]

Because you fight your battles were you can. Daily service fees are stealing from the gust and I will never agree with them. It is call having principles.

 

If you believed in it as a principle you wouldn't be constantly looking for rationales to justify yourself. I'll leave you to the gentle (or not) ministrations of karma. Maybe someday someone will fight a principled battle in which you get screwed over the way you are willing to screw over blameless ship's crew for the sake of your 'principles'.

[Expat Cruise]

If you believed in it as a principle you wouldn't be constantly looking for rationales to justify yourself. I'll leave you to the gentle (or not) ministrations of karma. Maybe someday someone will fight a principled battle in which you get screwed over the way you are willing to screw over blameless ship's crew for the sake of your 'principles'.

 

I'm happy with what Karma sends my way. Also the crew is not blameless here as you want to say. They work for the ship, therefore under the system they have agreed to they share in the good times and in the bad times.

 

I do not need to justify I do need to keep fighting the fight against these evil policies, and if some members of the crew get hurt in the process... not my problem.... sorry..

[Globehoppers]

The real issue with a cruise line "forcing" its customers to pay gratuities by including it automatically in your bill is that they underpay their employees and want the customer to make up the difference. So, they add a "tax" to the bill. Its really "bait and switch." You, the "guest" think the basic cruise price is reasonable. Add in the extra gratuity cost after the purchase. However, there are several high end cruise lines that do not ask for "guest" to fund gratuities and even discourage "tipping." As with airlines these days, check the small print and add in all the "extra" costs before making a cruising decision.

[Dunmore2]

About 7-8 years ago we asked our suite butler how he’d prefer we tipped. He said that when it’s an auto tip, it goes directly into his bank, and his family back in India could access it. If it’s cash, he’s likely to spend it on a meal while at a port if he gets time off to go ashore. He said his wife needed the money more than he did, but that it was our choice. Since then, we leave the autotips as they are, and give additional cash as needed. Filling out the cards for “ going above and beyond” benefits/rewards workers as well, sometimes a 2-3 hr time off.

[Expat Cruise]

The real issue with a cruise line "forcing" its customers to pay gratuities by including it automatically in your bill is that they underpay their employees and want the customer to make up the difference. So, they add a "tax" to the bill. Its really "bait and switch." You, the "guest" think the basic cruise price is reasonable. Add in the extra gratuity cost after the purchase. However, there are several high end cruise lines that do not ask for "guest" to fund gratuities and even discourage "tipping." As with airlines these days, check the small print and add in all the "extra" costs before making a cruising decision.

 

Well said, happy to not be the only one here who can see through the games the cruise lines are playing here.

[lvz2cruz]

The real issue with a cruise line "forcing" its customers to pay gratuities by including it automatically in your bill is that they underpay their employees and want the customer to make up the difference. So, they add a "tax" to the bill. Its really "bait and switch." You, the "guest" think the basic cruise price is reasonable. Add in the extra gratuity cost after the purchase. However, there are several high end cruise lines that do not ask for "guest" to fund gratuities and even discourage "tipping." As with airlines these days, check the small print and add in all the "extra" costs before making a cruising decision.

When you book your celebrity cruise after you select your room it shows price of room and port fees .Then you choose dining time. The next step is prepaying gratuities . It VERY CLEARLY shows the amount. Then same for insurance. If you do not select a choice, it does not go to the next page where you fill name and info.

No small print . No hidden cost. No bait and switch .

Next lame excuse for your selfishness?

[Expat Cruise]

When you book your celebrity cruise after you select your room it shows price of room and port fees .Then you choose dining time. The next step is prepaying gratuities . It VERY CLEARLY shows the amount. Then same for insurance. If you do not select a choice, it does not go to the next page where you fill name and info.

No small print . No hidden cost. No bait and switch .

Next lame excuse for your selfishness?

 

Sorry but it is it is not disclosed until well into the booking process and they do not give you the option to remove at that point. They hide that fact from you. Only gives you two choices a) prepay or 2) add to your own board account.

 

Does not tell you what it should. While it may say: "For your convenience, we automatically add gratuities for your restaurant and stateroom services to your onboard SeaPass® account." It does not tell you that it is a voluntary charge and it can be adjusted or removed without any reason needed. It does not give you the option to opt out as a third choice.

 

So the real question here is why not inform passengers of this? Because they do not want you to know what your legal rights are. They want to push the company PR line about hard working staff and this supports them. In truth collecting money this way saves the cruise lines millions of dollars each year.

 

They cannot tell you it is mandatory or else they would be subject to a whole other set of rules. Not a lame excuse for your selfishness, just the truth.

[bEwAbG]

Admin: This is not off topic or thread hijacking, it is a very direct way to address a issue that many here have a real problem with. That issue is deck chairs being unavailable and unused for long periods of time.

 

Uh huh

[lullman1]

I have been following this thread, watching it morph from lounge chair saving into a full blown gratuities debate. It got me thinking. When booking my upcoming cruise, I had a choice to take two of four perks for "free". I chose the drink package and gratuities. According to some on this thread I really threw away $420, the value of the pre-paid gratuities. I guess I should have taken the free Unlimited Internet, and then gone to customer service and had the auto added tips removed. For as it stands right now, I don't believe I could have the tips removed that I received as a "free" perk. To those that don't believe in gratuities on the ship, is that how you book?

[lvz2cruz]

Sorry but it is it is not disclosed until well into the booking process and they do not give you the option to remove at that point. They hide that fact from you. Only gives you two choices a) prepay or 2) add to your own board account.

 

Does not tell you what it should. While it may say: "For your convenience, we automatically add gratuities for your restaurant and stateroom services to your onboard SeaPass® account." It does not tell you that it is a voluntary charge and it can be adjusted or removed without any reason needed. It does not give you the option to opt out as a third choice.

 

So the real question here is why not inform passengers of this? Because they do not want you to know what your legal rights are. They want to push the company PR line about hard working staff and this supports them. In truth collecting money this way saves the cruise lines millions of dollars each year.

 

They cannot tell you it is mandatory or else they would be subject to a whole other set of rules. Not a lame excuse for your selfishness, just the truth.

 

It seems logical that they are informing you of tips before you have booked. You see this and then go to the next page and enter your name and info. On the next page you pay your deposit. You pay knowing full well the policy. If you do not agree, why do you book?

You have two choices:

Book and respect the rules.

Find another vacation.

 

Or there is a third--Book knowing the rules, receive service from those rightfully expecting you to compensate them for it since you know the rules, yet be cheap and refuse to pay for the services you have received.

Not only do the crew lose but tips are raised on your fellow cruisers to cover your selfishness. Some one has to pay for what you refuse to.

I know that is the route you take and am done trying to make you into a respectable cruiser. Don't bother replying with your lame excuses. There is no excuse. You are on my block list.

[deliver42]

Gee, where else have I seen this ridiculous argument? On every other cruise line forum. Either pay up or find another vacation where you don't have a DSC. Stop rationalizing.

[laslomas]

I have been reading this full thread from the start and it got me thinking.

 

A full S class ship, say 2,850 passengers. Average daily gratuities / service charge is $14. One day receipts totals $39,900, so over a week this is just under $280,000. Assuming two thirds of the crew are in for a share of this they will receive in excess of $300 each week of just tips. Add on top of that all the extra dollars that so many people say they tip with every drink, and every interaction with crew, I believe they are earning more than a meagre wage.

 

 

If I am working this out wrong I am sure someone will let me know, but it seems to me that assuming the company is also paying a wage, however small, and providing bed and board the remuneration is not bad at all even taking into account some passengers removing gratuities it is surely made up by those handing out dollar bills.

[jagoffee]

I'm happy with what Karma sends my way. Also the crew is not blameless here as you want to say. They work for the ship, therefore under the system they have agreed to they share in the good times and in the bad times.

 

I do not need to justify I do need to keep fighting the fight against these evil policies, and if some members of the crew get hurt in the process... not my problem.... sorry..

You sure do have an unusual definition and understanding of Principles.

 

Most of us (thankfully would call it something else).

 

“If something I do hurts other people then it is not my problem”

 

No one believes you are sorry or even principled.