With Prinsendam leaving, will some HAL passengers look elsewhere?

[Roz]

I'm not the Oracle at Delphi :rolleyes:. Why don't you ask Carnival?

 

Roz

[cruisemom42]

 

And even the Annual Report admitted they have no way of tracking P/L on individual ships. Yet "decisions" are being made somehow. What facts drive those decisions when they admit up front they have no facts.

 

Can you point me to where in the Annual Report this is stated? I've just skimmed it and didn't see anything like that -- but it's dense reading so perhaps I missed it.

[OlsSalt]

Can you point me to where in the Annual Report this is stated? I've just skimmed it and didn't see anything like that -- but it's dense reading so perhaps I missed it.

 

Pays to pay attention to the turgid detail in Annual Reports - what they say, what they do not say and how they intentionally obfuscate what should be crystal clear. I went looking for this exact information - how does each CCL unit perform.

 

What does the annual report tell you if you go looking for this information. You will have to approach it in the same way I did to find these little random reporting gems buried within the Annual report. I will be seeking this same info when it comes out again this Fall. So no, I am not going back to find the exact pages where this was reported just so you don't have to spend time "slogging" through this tome. Good exercise to find it yourself.

 

Meanwhile we can only weigh and balance those here now claiming they know, but they are not telling.

[cruisemom42]

Pays to pay attention to the turgid detail in Annual Reports - what they say, what they do not say and how they intentionally obfuscate what should be crystal clear. I went looking for this exact information - how does each CCL unit perform.

 

What does the annual report tell you if you go looking for this information. You will have to approach it in the same way I did to find these little random reporting gems buried within the Annual report. I will be seeking this same info when it comes out again this Fall. So no, I am not going back to find the exact pages where this was reported just so you don't have to spend time "slogging" through this tome. Good exercise to find it yourself.

 

Meanwhile we can only weigh and balance those here now claiming they know, but they are not telling.

 

I've assembled a few annual reports in my time and I will read this one in detail tonight; I have the pdf downloaded. But with all due respect, you are asking for "proof" from others, yet we are simply supposed to believe you that this statement exists?

[OlsSalt]

I've assembled a few annual reports in my time and I will read this one in detail tonight; I have the pdf downloaded. But with all due respect, you are asking for "proof" from others, yet we are simply supposed to believe you that this statement exists?

 

You were directed to the primary source material. Don't expect any more hand holding after that.

 

Read for the narrative; not just the mind-numbing numbers. What I also found interesting in that last report which I asked here for clarification at the time - it appeared the CLL family was divided into two sub-groups that may or may not have had different financials - but I could not decipher what the distinguishing term meant. It gave the hint that one group was either under or over performing in relative terms to the other CCL family members.

 

If you search back when this was presented to this forum last year you can pick up on that discussion - with no resolution. Here is one old link: https://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2608440&highlight=CCL+Annual+Report

[Roz]

"turgid detail" - not sure how to relate this to an annual report, since I'm only familiar with the biological definition.

 

Turgid – a plant cell fully inflated with water. Plasmolysed – a plant cell that has lost water causing the cell membrane to be pulled away from the inside of the cell wall. Flaccid – a plant cell that is limp through a reduction of pressure inside the cell.

Draw whatever conclusions you want to.....:evilsmile:

 

Roz

[OlsSalt]

"turgid detail" - not sure how to relate this to an annual report, since I'm only familiar with the biological definition.

 

Turgid – a plant cell fully inflated with water. Plasmolysed – a plant cell that has lost water causing the cell membrane to be pulled away from the inside of the cell wall. Flaccid – a plant cell that is limp through a reduction of pressure inside the cell.

Draw whatever conclusions you want to.....:evilsmile:

 

Roz

 

Free Dictionary: draw whatever conclusions you want to .....

Here is a conclusion I can draw, Roz - two people can look at exactly the same thing and see two different things, depending upon the agenda they bring into the argument.

 

turgid (ˈtɜːdʒɪd) adj

1. swollen and distended; congested

2. (of style or language) pompous and high-flown; bombastic

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

Ships don't last for ever

 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Forums mobile app

[RDC1]

How would we ever find out? Or whether HAL is carrying its own weight among the rest of the CCL family since the CCL Annual Report is a consolidated return only for the entire company, not individual cruise lines.

 

And even the Annual Report admitted they have no way of tracking P/L on individual ships. Yet "decisions" are being made somehow. What facts drive those decisions when they admit up front they have no facts.

If you read all of the cruise line 10k and 10q reports, especially when a new ship class is added their is frequent discussion of cost efficiency related to size. You can also buy analyst reports that do excellent job of looking at various sources and getting avg revenue per passenger by line (for example you can get a good estimate from market watch data that give passenger market share and revenue market share per line). You also can get ship size (both max and 2 per cabin numbers), as well as crew size data very easily.

 

End result is that analysts can put together some pretty good models. The last report I read indicated that HAL gets a substantial portion of its profits from it Alaska land operations, and that its ocean going operations lag. It does get a premium per passenger to both celebrity and Princess, part of which might be because it tends to carry fewer discounted 3 and 4 passengers per cabin on average than either of those two lines.

But according to the analysis that premium does not totally make up for the lower cost efficiency of the smaller ships.

 

The report projected 3 things as far as HAL is concerned. 1. Smaller ships will continue to be retired as age increases their maint cost (30 years was the top end number in the report). 2. They will continue to be replaced by ships at the low end of the mainstream lines (mid 2000 range. 3. It also predicted more investment in land based operations.

[RDC1]

Wy do you think CCL went out of its way in the last Annual Report to affirmatively state they had no means of collecting the costs of operations for individual ships?

 

I agree, they should have this data, exactly as you state. But why lie upfront they have no means of tracking the overall costs of operations for each ship, which would be a reflection of how much money they make off each passenger.

Their accounting systems are not designed to gather and report the data.

 

However, there is a difference between gathering ship specific data and them being able to estimate efficiencies by ship class.

To do the former would require them to go into each depart and specifically capture data by ship. Instead of by function. For example they know what they spent for entertainers across the fleet, and could probably dig out the data for a specific ship, but their financial system does not report entertainment cost per ship as a normal function.

That said if they felt the need they could probably spend a lot of effort and back into a good estimate.

 

Don't know if you have ever been involved in financial reporting since Sarbanes Oxley was passed. But you must include in the reports and weakness in controls. There a a considerable difference in level of detail for producing a full p&L by ship, and understanding the business enough to have a good idea of cost efficiencies by ship class/size.

[Sea girl 23]

Ships don't last for ever

 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Forums mobile app

 

I just don't get the big deal..god forbid HAL tried to get a few more years out of it and the Prinsendam basically fell apart in the middle of a cruise?

 

The timing is perfect.

[RDC1]

Can you point me to where in the Annual Report this is stated? I've just skimmed it and didn't see anything like that -- but it's dense reading so perhaps I missed it.

I would expect it to be in the limitation of controls section as required by Sarbannes Oxley

[iancal]

This is simply the ordinary course of business. HAL made a decision that they felt was in the best interests of Carnival shareholders. For whatever reason HAL did not see the ship as part of their future. It could be that the profit was not up to best in class or they believed that some significant capital investments would be required that would overshadow this ships future financial contribution to the group results. Or it could be that someone came along and gave them what they believe is a good price for the ship. Perhaps there might even be an extraordinary gain on the financials if the selling price is significantly over the depreciated cost.

 

Why try to second guess the reason? It's done and from all accounts it should be no surprise given the age of the ship;

[kazu]

I just don't get the big deal..god forbid HAL tried to get a few more years out of it and the Prinsendam basically fell apart in the middle of a cruise?

 

The timing is perfect.

 

You're right. You don't "get it".

 

HAL has just dropped a pile of ports. Had they replaced her, that would be a whole new kettle of fish.

 

Oceania bought an older ship and refurbished it and she now sails as the Sirena.

 

there are people that want these itineraries and to go where the big ships don't.

 

And they will find alternatives. She might be the smallest in the fleet but she had the highest profit per passenger of any ship and the biggest repeat passenger ratio. Huge.

 

This ship commanded big $ so people will start to look at where to spend their $. It's a fact and a reality.

[Scrapnana]

Which ones have you found to have solo discounts for shorter cruises? That's still my "beat" for now.

Silverseas, Regent, and Azamara as well as some river cruise lines.

[ithaca gal]

After they way HAL cancelled cruises on their other ships as a result of the sale, we are looking elsewhere for the first time in 11 years.

[Hlitner]

We have been fortunate to have befriended the man who Captained the Prinsendam from its time being constructed until his recent retirement. One evening we did talk about the old vessel which was his personal passion. He knew when he retired that the Prinsendam was not long for the HAL world. The reason was simply economics and the age of the ship. Many of the parts needed to keep the ship operating were no longer a stock part and had to be specifically machined for the ship. This was very expensive and also caused problems because of the time involved in ordering these kind of items. In addition, keeping the Prinsendam up to the current safety standard (generally specified in the SOLAS rules) was a real challenge. The design of the Prinsendam also meant it needed a higher crew ratio then its newer cousins. This increased the cost per passenger day. HAL is a for-profit corporation and must generate a healthy profit to sustain operations..and the Prinsendam was simply outliving its profitability.

 

Getting rid of the Prinsendam is sad to those of us who loved the old lady......but its a sound business decision.

 

Hank

[Sea girl 23]

*Deep breath* I have a hard time believing that the level of upset that people have gotten about the Prinsendam is only about "losing ports". As has been pointed out,there are work arounds. My theory is that there is something deeper than just that..but they are afraid to admit it.

[SusieKIslandGirl]

We just did a 2 week Christmas/New Year's cruise this past December on the Pacific Princess. We loved it. It has an old world elegance and I believe the passenger count was 688. The only drawback to its small size is not enough walking between venues so it's the only cruise I've gained weight on:(. Plus US and Canadian veterans get extra shipboard credit too-another nice perk.

[RDC1]

For those wanting HAL to compete with the other small ship lines or wonder how those lines can afford to take and operate an old small ship. The following is a ratio of revenue market share divided by passenger market share. In other words a ratio of per passenger revenue.

 

Princess 1.42

Celebrity 1.51

HAL 1.75

 

 

Azmara 3.0

Oceania 4.6

Silversea 5.0

Crystal 6.0

Seabourne 6.0

Regent 6.3

This is based on 2017 data. While it is certainly not an exact measurement of fares, it is a reasonable proxi. The revenue includes all revenue, both fares and shipboard.

[iancal]

I do not see how any of this matters. HAL, and other cruise lines, are under no obligation to explain to their customers why they withdraw ships from their respective fleets. And even if they were, does anyone really think that they would be provided with the unvarnished truth?

 

Carnival Corporation is a very successful business venture with a hundred plus cruise ships. Does anyone on this forum really think that they know more about operating a cruise ship profitably than this group?

[Sea girl 23]

I do not see how any of this matters. HAL, and other cruise lines, are under no obligation to explain to their customers why they withdraw ships from their respective fleets. And even if they were, does anyone really think that they would be provided with the unvarnished truth?

 

Carnival Corporation is a very successful business venture with a hundred plus cruise ships. Does anyone on this forum really think that they know more about operating a cruise ship profitably than this group?

 

Just look at the drubbing Orlando Ashford gets on here:p.

 

Topic?It's no secret that the Prinsedam may or may not be sold for some time now..there has been time to "prepare".:rolleyes:

[AtlantaCruiser72]

Just look at the drubbing Orlando Ashford gets on here:p.

 

I would be likely to believe that Mr Ashford is merely executing a plan formulated at the level of the CCL bod and Mr Donald and his executive team. He may have been asked for some input to help them decide, but assuredly he was not responsible for it himself.

[comcox]

1. CRUISE AND MARITIME VOYAGES has a family of smaller ships with unique itineraries - worth looking at: https://us.cruiseandmaritime.com

2. NOBLE CALEDONIA is another company for smaller ships and global exploration itineraries, but more pricey.https://www.noble-caledonia.co.uk

3. FRED OLSON is also known for its smaller, older modest ships and far ranging itineraries: https://www.fredolsencruises.com

 

How well will the new format for the Maasdam In Depth serve this now missing Prinsendam gap? Looking forward to seeing this first hand in a few more months. Maasdam have at least two very compelling routes for us - TransPac and Japan and Sea of Cortez. Many good itineraries ahead for them if this format works. Been seeking a replacement for the no-frills Voyages of Discovery and agree Voyages to Antiquity seems to be the best replacement, with the soon to be missing Prinsendam.

 

 

I've taken up sailing on Fred Olsen and quite enjoy their cruises. They have some solo cabins on their ships and so pricing has been fairly good. I've only done one C & M and it was O.K. I've heard good things about P & O and hope to try them next.

[cruisemom42]

You were directed to the primary source material. Don't expect any more hand holding after that.

 

Read for the narrative; not just the mind-numbing numbers. What I also found interesting in that last report which I asked here for clarification at the time - it appeared the CLL family was divided into two sub-groups that may or may not have had different financials - but I could not decipher what the distinguishing term meant. It gave the hint that one group was either under or over performing in relative terms to the other CCL family members.

 

If you search back when this was presented to this forum last year you can pick up on that discussion - with no resolution. Here is one old link: https://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2608440&highlight=CCL+Annual+Report

 

 

Well, I made my way through 25 of the 75 pages last night, reading in detail. So far I have not found anything that would support the idea that Carnival Corp have no way of tracking P/L on individual ships. The only item I did flag -- which would seem to NOT support this view, is the following sentence from page 13 of the report (page 15 on the pdf version):

 

"The lowest level for which we maintain identifiable cash flows that are

independent of the cash flows of other assets and liabilities is at the individual ship level." (emphasis mine)

 

Stay tuned. I'll keep slogging.