Tender Unloading Accident on Maasdam

[Copper10-8]

1 minute ago, cruising cockroach said:

Pretty much it though I thought some have docks for landing craft.  Had a colleage who was a former USMC captain telling me the unsettling feeling (especially for the men in the back) of the vehicle plunging beneath water when it first goes of the ship.

 

 

Yes, you think for a moment you'll become a submarine that first time in an Amtrack coming out of the dock 

[chengkp75]

So, in addition to taking up space in the hull for a dock area for amphibious vessels, you would add carrying amphibious tenders, since these would no longer be dual purposed as lifeboats.  Or, if you look at LSD's (Dock Landing Ships) like the Anchorage class and earlier types that actually launched landing craft (small boats) rather than amphibious tractors, you would have the space for the hydraulics to open/close the stern door, and the ballast capability to sink the ship 6 feet or fill the dock space with water prior to opening the door.  Given the very small amount of hull below the water above today's azipods, a well deck for small boats does not seem either economically or physically possible.

[PelicanBill]

Even though early reporting on incidents like these is chaotic it's a big improvement over the days when we may never have heard, or only get the spin doctored press release, or the capsule news summary that has wildly inaccurate facts.  This is crowdsourced information and it will usually start sketchy but usually comes together.  We should doubt less, and debate more, as many times these early reports DO turn out to be true.  

 

I hope this incident sheds some light on tendering.  I have always viewed it as a very risky operation. Many times I have seen NCL's ships deploy 2,000 people to Great Stirrup Cay, only to have a storm blow up and then rush everyone back.  Rushing is bad.  A storm is worse.  I have crossed that little gangway with a 2' rise and fall and heard of worse when they have no choice but to get everyone back on the ship.  I watched last week as they accommodated wheelchairs and scooters across to Grand Cayman.  It was calm this time... but I have seen conditions that would be very dangerous.  My wife walks with a cane and cannot keep balance well. One shift and she's on the rail.... a much shorter rail than on the ship proper.  She'd go over in a second if not for a crew member with hands on her on both sides of that gangway.  

 

If an elderly or otherwise mobility impaired person crosses, and there aren't two crew members with hands on, guess what. Good chance they go overboard.  In the space between the tender and the ship. A tight and dangerous spot. Someone's got to go in after them too. 

 

On the other hand, it's a small part of the injury landscape in cruising. In a 3 year study done in 2010, 3.6% of injuries were on tenders. Most were ashore, next most was in cabins.

 

My opinion:  Tender gangway connections need to be more substantial. Wider, with taller sides and handrails within. Mandatory hands-on assistance both sides.  If someone falls while crossing, it should not be possible to go overboard. Also probably should advise that there are more risks tendering and required a form to be signed with registration (electronic.)  And full disclosure of ports that require tendering (I can't believe how often people are surprised that they have to tender!)

[cruising cockroach]

56 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 Given the very small amount of hull below the water above today's azipods, a well deck for small boats does not seem either economically or physically possible.

 

A mere fanciful idea that looks good on paper until one realises the costs and complications. I didn't say it'll make any financial or logistics sense (unless cruise rates were a multitude of times more for ships so equipped), though I bet it's crossed the minds of cruiseco management a few times until they realised all those points you raised (and I did say it'd take away from too much revenue-generating space).  I'd bet maintenance would be a headache with these things to boot.

 

Not exactly a comparable level of complication  but you wonder how long it'll be before something goes wrong on something like a lifting multi-purpose platform as found on the Celebrity Edge.  If it could move fast enough to stay level with a tender, it may be  possible solution to safer tendering.

Edited November 15, 2018 by cruising cockroach

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, cruising cockroach said:

 

A mere fanciful idea that looks good on paper until one realises the costs and complications. I didn't say it'll make any financial or logistics sense (unless cruise rates were a multitude of times more for ships so equipped), though I bet it's crossed the minds of cruiseco management a few times until they realised all those points you raised.  I'd bet maintenance would be a headache with these things.

 

Not exactly a comparable level of complication  but you wonder how long it'll be before something goes wrong on something like a lifting multi-purpose platform as found on the Celebrity Edge.  If it could move fast enough to stay level with a tender, it may be  possible solution to safer tendering.

I've had my doubts about the platform on the Edge from day one.  In order to move with a tender, it would have to float, and have about the same mass as the tender so that the response to waves would be identical to keep relative motion between the boat and platform at zero.  Then, you would have to have all the people from or for the tender on the platform at one time, or you would have the same situation with relative motion between the platform and the ship. So, the platform would need to move with the boat to get everyone on/off the boat, then lock in place to get everyone from the platform to the ship.

 

As for larger tender platforms, you must understand that the size of an opening in a ship's hull is limited by the watertight zones the ship is divided into (no opening can bridge more than one compartment), so this why tender platforms are the size they are.  The tender platforms I've worked with all have handrails, either rigid or rope/chain, and the only open area is the space where you cross to the boat.  The only way to prevent someone who falls while crossing from going overboard would be a ramp from the ship to the boat, and this would in some combination of boat to platform relative elevation cause the end of this ramp to be raised off the deck, again causing a hazard to mobility challenged (and even those not challenged).  I suppose you could rig a net under the transfer point, much like ships do for their gangways, but this would have to be rigged and unrigged each time a boat reaches the tender platform, and would significantly slow down tendering, and present a risk to the crew rigging it.  The most serious threat of someone while transiting to a tender is not falling in the water, it is being caught between the boat and the platform while they move relative to each other, and the danger of crushing injury.  

 

Tendering is an inherently risky operation, and I think the ships and crews do their best to mitigate the risk as best as possible.

[cruising cockroach]

51 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I've had my doubts about the platform on the Edge from day one.  In order to move with a tender, it would have to float, and have about the same mass as the tender so that the response to waves would be identical to keep relative motion between the boat and platform at zero.  Then, you would have to have all the people from or for the tender on the platform at one time, or you would have the same situation with relative motion between the platform and the ship. So, the platform would need to move with the boat to get everyone on/off the boat, then lock in place to get everyone from the platform to the ship.

 

 

I was expecting the Edge platform to be static when it reaches a level.  Is it supposed to move to assist in tender ops?  If so, I would have thought the safest way to use it would be fixed to get pax onto the platform, and once on the platform, floating with the tender (or try its best to sync), and reverse to get pax off the platform onto ship.

 

I anticipate it to be INOP before long.

 

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, cruising cockroach said:

 

I was expecting the Edge platform to be static when it reaches a level.  Is it supposed to move to assist in tender ops?  If so, I would have thought the safest way to use it would be fixed to get pax onto the platform, and once on the platform, floating with the tender (or try its best to sync), and reverse to get pax off the platform onto ship.

 

I anticipate it to be INOP before long.

 

It is, to my understanding, static when it reaches a level.  I was going with your suggestion of "If it could move fast enough to stay level with a tender, it may be  possible solution to safer tendering."  But, that would add another whole level to the complexity of the device, and make it that much more prone to breakdown.

[Copper10-8]

2 hours ago, cruising cockroach said:

 

.........................

Not exactly a comparable level of complication  but you wonder how long it'll be before something goes wrong on something like a lifting multi-purpose platform as found on the Celebrity Edge.  If it could move fast enough to stay level with a tender, it may be  possible solution to safer tendering.

 

Celebrity Cruises' Edge "Magic Carpet," a 90-ton platform, the size of a tennis court, that will be cantilevered over the side of the ship

 

 

 

 

[rkacruiser]

No expertise here to be sure, but the Edge may be to "edgey".  Stateroom walls that allow the entire cabin to be exposed to the exterior temperature?  How will this affect the A/C of the ship?  This "magic carpet" concept:  how well with this work when the weather is not cooperative?  

[Bill B]

2 hours ago, Copper10-8 said:

... a 90-ton platform, the size of a tennis court, that will be cantilevered over the side of the ship

 

That just doesn't seem like a good idea. 

[Copper10-8]

40 minutes ago, Bill B said:

 

That just doesn't seem like a good idea. 

 

Perhaps, I have never sailed X, but they are doing/operating it as we speak 

[TiogaCruiser]

Yikes. That’s one ugly ship. Looks more like a car carrier.

 

[MMDown Under]

12 minutes ago, TiogaCruiser said:

Yikes. That’s one ugly ship. Looks more like a car carrier.

 

 

[MMDown Under]

Just now, MMDown Under said:

 

 

13 minutes ago, TiogaCruiser said:

Yikes. That’s one ugly ship. Looks more like a car carrier.

 

Agree it is ugly.  Reminds me a live sheep carrier.  Does it look top heavy to anyone else?

[broberts]

Hovercraft tenders using an Edge like platform. 

[iflyrc5]

On 11/15/2018 at 2:20 PM, Copper10-8 said:

 

I would love that launch from the ship - maybe a new EXC tour!!

 

[chengkp75]

19 hours ago, MMDown Under said:

 

Agree it is ugly.  Reminds me a live sheep carrier.  Does it look top heavy to anyone else?

No, the sheep carriers are even uglier.  I think the top heavy look is due to the perspective of the photo, I don't think it is in any way more radical in design (height for length or beam) than any other newer ship.  I would love to see their engineering plant layout that has to compensate for that 90 ton monstrosity hanging off one side.  Hope they've studied wind heel scenarios with that for sufficient ballast/fuel/potable water movement to counteract the moment arm of that thing.

[rkacruiser]

A Celebrity video describing the Magic Carpet says that when it is used as a tender loading platform, there would be a seamless walk from ship, on to the platform, to the tender:  no stairs.  Certainly would make the tenders more easy to use with those who are mobility challenged.

 

The video does show several innovative additions to the ship; one that has a bit of a "Disney touch" to it, the Le Petite Chef dining venue.

 

Surely agree that she is not a maritime beauty to behold.  But, that type of bow design--can't think of its name--is being used by other cruise companies as well.

 

I have not read whether there will be a sister to Celebrity Edge.  If not, as a "one-off" build, that's a rather large investment that RCI, the parent Company, has made in this new design.

 

[rkacruiser]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

No, the sheep carriers are even uglier.  I think the top heavy look is due to the perspective of the photo, I don't think it is in any way more radical in design (height for length or beam) than any other newer ship.  I would love to see their engineering plant layout that has to compensate for that 90 ton monstrosity hanging off one side.  Hope they've studied wind heel scenarios with that for sufficient ballast/fuel/potable water movement to counteract the moment arm of that thing.

 

I have wondered about the stability component as well.

[chengkp75]

10 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

Surely agree that she is not a maritime beauty to behold.  But, that type of bow design--can't think of its name--is being used by other cruise companies as well.

 

The inverted bow is a way to increase the waterline length and hence the best hull speed of the ship (and further a reduction in fuel consumption), but it does reduce the reserve buoyancy of the bow, so that the ship will slice into seas more than a conventional bow would rise up a wave.

[TiogaCruiser]

16 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The inverted bow is a way to increase the waterline length and hence the best hull speed of the ship (and further a reduction in fuel consumption), but it does reduce the reserve buoyancy of the bow, so that the ship will slice into seas more than a conventional bow would rise up a wave.

So does that improve the “ride”?

[bEwAbG]

30 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

I have not read whether there will be a sister to Celebrity Edge.  If not, as a "one-off" build, that's a rather large investment that RCI, the parent Company, has made in this new design.

 

Edge is the first in a series.  Apex is the next one...sailing in 2020 and featuring the same amenities (including the Magic Carpet).  Booking for that one opens at the end of this month.

[TiogaCruiser]

30 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

A Celebrity video describing the Magic Carpet says that when it is used as a tender loading platform, there would be a seamless walk from ship, on to the platform, to the tender:  no stairs.  Certainly would make the tenders more easy to use with those who are mobility challenged.

 

 

 

That is only half of the equation for those with mobility issues. The other half is the shore side.

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, TiogaCruiser said:

So does that improve the “ride”?

There would be less pitching motion, but there may well be more slamming noise and shuddering if speed is not matched to wave period, and there can be more "green water" and spray on the promenade deck.  It looks to me like there are no forward facing balconies, so they may have anticipated more green water in that area.

[Hlitner]

There are some realities when it comes to tendering.  Moving between a boat and ship or boat and dock always involves some risk.  The crew on HAL does a fabulous job trying to keep the tenders hard against the dock and they always have a few strong guys who assist passengers.   But HAL does attract many older passengers, many of which are not in the best of physical condition.  One will often see many walkers and canes, not to mention scooters and wheelchairs, on longer HAL cruises.  Many of these folks will go ashore in tenders and it can be painful just to watch them trying to get in and out of the boats...especially if conditions are anything less then perfect.  Anyone who has spent time around smaller boats knows that the trick is carefully time your stepping in or out of the tender and then move very quickly.  Those who hesitate or move veeeeerrrrry sloooowly simply increase the risk to their own safety.  We have witnessed several tender injuries in our cruising life (no fatalities) and it is a very sad situation.  Who can blame cruisers for wanting to go ashore...even if they are not as spry as in years past.  

 

This is a real lose-lose for the cruise lines.  If they cancel tender operations in all but the most perfect conditions they are going to miss many ports.  The cruisers will quickly complain (and some demand compensation).  The staff can warn cruisers about tendering, but there are always going to be some folks who ignore the warnings and think they can handle it!  And most experienced cruisers have tendered into ports only to find that conditions worsen (often unexpectedly) in the afternoon.  At that point additional risks are taken to get folks back to the ship.   For those who keep demanding proof here is another article:

http://www.cookislandsnews.com/national/local/item/71306-cruise-ship-death-revealed/71306-cruise-ship-death-revealed

 

Hank