NO BAILOUT FOR CRUISE LINES!

[Biker19]

1 minute ago, orville99 said:

Unfortunately one has already decided that he’s not going to college.

Unlike a 401K or IRA, only the gains of the 529 account are taxable (at the federal level), not the entire amount.

 

Biker, who assumes folks have lots innovative ideas on how to spend that money and call it an "educational expense".

[ECCruise]

20 minutes ago, orville99 said:

Today’s cruise prices {adjusted for inflation) are significantly lower than when we started cruising in the 1980’s, and using that same inflation adjuster have remained within 5-10% of where they were over the past decade.

There's the last century thing again. Not a comparison. I am talking like 5 years ago. We've taken itineraries similar to the attached many times.  Nowhere near almost $10k.  More like half that.

[Biker19]

9 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

 We've taken itineraries similar to the attached many times.  Nowhere near almost $10k.  More like half that.

That's just an outlier and likely to come down as we get closer to next summer - this years' prices are more like it.

[orville99]

10 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

There's the last century thing again. Not a comparison. I am talking like 5 years ago. We've taken itineraries similar to the attached many times.  Nowhere near almost $10k.  More like half that.

We have taken ~80 cruises in the last 12 years, and always book balcony cabins. The average price/cruise over those last 12 years has remained relatively constant at ~$2,200/cruise. 

[RocketMan275]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

If you saw those "union" wages, you'd laugh at your statement.  As someone who worked on the NCL US flag ships at the beginning, I saw how low the pay scale was, even for the "traditional" maritime unions who man the deck and engine departments.  Entry level wage for the cruise ship hotel staff was less than most cities' McDonald's wage, and you worked longer hours with no days off.  Even the unlicensed deck and engine crew had concessions where their overtime rate was less than the normal time rate (yes, this is legal if the collective bargaining agreement says it is okay).  The reason two of the US flag ships were reflagged back to Bahamian was not due to complaints of service, but due to price pressures from the foreign flag ships that were offering 14 day cruises from the West Coast for less than NCL could make money on selling 7 day cruises.  During the time that NCL had 3 ships in Hawaii, the other cruise lines increased capacity to Hawaii by 500%, driving fares down due to overcapacity.

The level of the wages on those ships really isn't relevant to the level of service provided and whether this service was a factor in reflagging these ships.  Union shops are not well known for cheerful service.

 

There was a reason those ships were not profitable and competition forced their reflagging.  Even from your account, it would be reasonable to conclude that crew wages was a cause (along with service).

[ECCruise]

12 minutes ago, orville99 said:

We have taken ~80 cruises in the last 12 years, and always book balcony cabins. The average price/cruise over those last 12 years has remained relatively constant at ~$2,200/cruise. 

Thanks for making my point.

 

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

The level of the wages on those ships really isn't relevant to the level of service provided and whether this service was a factor in reflagging these ships.  Union shops are not well known for cheerful service.

 

There was a reason those ships were not profitable and competition forced their reflagging.  Even from your account, it would be reasonable to conclude that crew wages was a cause (along with service).

No, the level of service provided is based on the culture of the country where the employees come from, and those making minimum wage in the US are not known, across the service industries, for their quality of service.  But, that is not the reason the ships were reflagged out.  And, there is no less of a "union shop" than the SEATU union, which represents the hotel staff on the NCL US flag ships.  SEATU is very similar to the "unions" that all international cruise ship crew belong to, it is merely a hiring service.

 

Yes, wages were a reason, but it went from there to having to buy fuel in Hawaii, as opposed to the West Coast, where fuel is about 40-50% higher, to buying or having shipped to Hawaii all food, liquor, and parts, rather than buying food on the West Coast (no shipping) and parts coming from overseas in customs bond, and liquor being bonded stores as well.

[gatour]

Royal as a corporation is not a US based company.  They are actually "incorporated" in a different country.  Their front and back office functions may reside in the US they are not technically a US based company. 

 

This like how many banks credit card subsidiaries are or were registered in Delaware  and to a lesser extent South Dakota (I think, I just now it was a midwestern state).  Under those state laws they were able to charge higher interest rates with more favorable recovery fees and taxes.

[orville99]

1 hour ago, ECCruise said:

Thanks for making my point.

 

Your point was that cruise prices are now sky high. Average prices remaining constant over the past 12 years completely contradicts your position.

[grandgeezer]

2 hours ago, orville99 said:

Today’s cruise prices {adjusted for inflation) are significantly lower than when we started cruising in the 1980’s, and using that same inflation adjuster have remained within 5-10% of where they were over the past decade.

I think you better fire your accountant or whoever gave you these numbers. Our first cruise in 2001, was in a balcony and we paid $73 p.p.p.d., taxes and fees included. The last time we cruised in a balcony was in 2015 and we paid $124 p.p.p.d., taxes and fees included. Also, the experience on the first cruise got us hooked, the experience on the second one had us unhooked. Comparing the two was like comparing a Lexus to a Yugo.

[ECCruise]

37 minutes ago, orville99 said:

Your point was that cruise prices are now sky high. Average prices remaining constant over the past 12 years completely contradicts your position.

I give up.

You tell me you have taken many, many cruises that cost $2200 per cruise.  "Price hasn't changed".  I show you a current offering for a balcony for $9600 and you say it doesn't make my point.

[Newleno]

9 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

I give up.

You tell me you have taken many, many cruises that cost $2200 per cruise.  "Price hasn't changed".  I show you a current offering for a balcony for $9600 and you say it doesn't make my point.

I thought the point was pretty clear, they basically pay about the same.  Your example of $9600 they would not pay, they would find another cruise in their price range.  We paid $399 for a 7 day hawaii cruise balcony in 2006 because there were 3 ships, to much capacity.  We were going to book a $399 balcony fll for march 14th but things started to get crazy and we did not book, (lucky because it was cancelled on the same day we would have arrived)  Both were cheap to do the circumstances, been doing it since 2006, especially repo cruises, cheap stuff we are all over it.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Newleno

[not-enough-cruising]

13 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

I give up.

You tell me you have taken many, many cruises that cost $2200 per cruise.  "Price hasn't changed".  I show you a current offering for a balcony for $9600 and you say it doesn't make my point.

You picked a 14 day cruise on a historically  EXPENSIVE itinerary and time frame. That doesn’t really apply to the conversation at all. 

[mac_tlc]

Some ships/itineraries/cabins have increased less than others, but that doesn’t mean that everything is constant. Our first Disney cruise was 7 days for four people was less than $3K in August. Today that cruise is probably close to $8K.

 

Doesnt mean everything is more but there are ones that certainly are. The shear number of regular balcony cabins on O class ships will keep the prices from increasing as much as less available cabins, such as loft suites. Supply and demand prevail on all ships, all itineraries and all months. 
 

Everyone’s historical examples are legitimate, why does one have to be right and one have to be wrong????
 

mac_tlc

[ECCruise]

16 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

You picked a 14 day cruise on a historically  EXPENSIVE itinerary and time frame. That doesn’t really apply to the conversation at all. 

Um, all we take are 14+ day cruises, in unique itineraries.  I didn't "pick" anything.  And have never paid anywhere NEAR that for the sailings we have done.  So, sorry, it does apply directly to our experience, which is all we can reference.

[not-enough-cruising]

Just now, ECCruise said:

Um, all we take are 14+ day cruises, in unique itineraries.  I didn't "pick" anything.  And have never paid anywhere NEAR that for the sailings we have done.  So, sorry, it does apply directly to our experience, which is all we can reference.

Take a deep breath.........

[ECCruise]

Just now, not-enough-cruising said:

Take a deep breath.........

No need. 

You questioned the validity of my post.  Have tons of experience that says otherwise, but, whatever.

[bobmacliberty]

25 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

No need. 

You questioned the validity of my post.  Have tons of experience that says otherwise, but, whatever.

 

Sorry, but I disagree with you also.  Cruises for us have remained fairly constant in price for the last 5+ years.  We enjoy land vacations also and whenever I compare a cruise to a week in a resort somewhere, cruising always comes back cheaper (yes...hard to do an apples to apples comparison).  I still believe that cruising is one of the best vacation values available.

[Drumstix40]

On 3/23/2020 at 7:27 PM, koolZip said:

I love cruising as much as anyone and plan on doing more once this crisis has passed and I feel the ships are safe, but in the meantime not one penny of American taxpayer money should go to bail out the cruise lines! Celebrity, Carnival, Disney etc, all sail under foreign "flags of convenience" in order to evade U.S. taxes, labor laws and environmental regulations. That's the bargain Disney made when it registered in the Bahamas, Celebrity in Malta and Carnival in Panama. Let the cruise lines go to those countries for money. American taxpayers are not obliged to keep them afloat (pun intended).

every single thing about your post is mostly inaccurate.  Most companies that do business outside the USA do

the very same thing to avoid paying as US taxes.  Just like every other US taxpayers does. We all try to find the loopholes to pay as little as possible. 

 

AND ITS ALL LEGAL.  That’s big business.

Thats just the way it is. You are just as guilty as the rest of us.  Corporations are just trying to do the same only in larger $$$$ amounts. 

 

Now, i do 100% agree with you that the Cruises lines should not get a single penny of bailout funds.  But that is only because I would rather see the money redistribution through other channels. Small business under 20mil of annual sales volume, self employed the list goes on.  They  should receive the lions share to restart the economy.  However, this will NOT happen because those multinational multi billion dollar corps have a huge economic impact for instance cruise lines keeps millions of people employed from Truck drivers, port administration, dock workers, home office personnel, and not to mention the 100’s of millions spent on sourcing the food and beverage needed to operate these ships at US ports employees so many of our fellow citizens.  They need the bailout in order to survive or the alternative is a financial crisis like we have never seen before.  So, it is sometimes necessary for the govt to intervene because they are simply TO BIG TO FAIL.

please stay well, 🤗

[ECCruise]

8 minutes ago, bobmacliberty said:

 

Sorry, but I disagree with you also.  Cruises for us have remained fairly constant in price for the last 5+ years.  We enjoy land vacations also and whenever I compare a cruise to a week in a resort somewhere, cruising always comes back cheaper (yes...hard to do an apples to apples comparison).  I still believe that cruising is one of the best vacation values available.

Yikes.

I only posted actual cruise line prices.  I didn't realize that anecdotal takes precedence over that. 

[bobmacliberty]

23 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Yikes.

I only posted actual cruise line prices.  I didn't realize that anecdotal takes precedence over that. 

 

Not anecdotal. I have all of my invoices.  We only do 7 day cruises, so your extended cruises may be different.

[orville99]

2 hours ago, grandgeezer said:

I think you better fire your accountant or whoever gave you these numbers. Our first cruise in 2001, was in a balcony and we paid $73 p.p.p.d., taxes and fees included. The last time we cruised in a balcony was in 2015 and we paid $124 p.p.p.d., taxes and fees included. Also, the experience on the first cruise got us hooked, the experience on the second one had us unhooked. Comparing the two was like comparing a Lexus to a Yugo.

I'm my own accountant, and have detailed costs in a spreadsheet that I've kept since we started cruising again in 2008. The number I quoted includes 18 7-night JS in the mix, and one 7-night CL Suite (which added $8,000 to the total). I'm sure I could go out and find the most expensive itinerary (14-night TA) on the newest ship and use that to demonstrate that the prices of all cruises are sky high, but in the real world of 7-night cruises, that makes no point.

Edited March 27, 2020 by orville99

[txart]

The cruise lines may be incorporated in other countries but they employ over 400,000 people in this country not counting the business they create for the airlines, hotels, restaurants, taxis, etc. I'd say they are very important to the US economy.

[time4u2go]

31 minutes ago, txart said:

The cruise lines may be incorporated in other countries but they employ over 400,000 people in this country not counting the business they create for the airlines, hotels, restaurants, taxis, etc. I'd say they are very important to the US economy.

Also all the companies that supply them with provisions.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, txart said:

The cruise lines may be incorporated in other countries but they employ over 400,000 people in this country not counting the business they create for the airlines, hotels, restaurants, taxis, etc. I'd say they are very important to the US economy.

No, they don't "employ" that many people in the US.  They may "support" the employment of those people, but on the same vein, should we bail out a corporation like Samsung who makes TV's in foreign countries, because they "support" the longshoremen, truck drivers and Best Buy salespeople in the US?